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Divash

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:28 pm


kleokriesel
Deuteronomy 22:5 says that women shouldn't wear pants and men shouldn't wear dresses or skirts


Not exactly. It says "Lo-yi'h'yeh k'li-never al-ishah, v'lo-yilbash gever simlat ishah, ki to'avat HASHEM elo(k)eicha kol-oseh eileh." A woman shall not wear that which pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for whoever does these things is an abomination to HASHEM your G*D.

The verse says, essentially, that while I could buy and wear my own clothes of any kind, I shouldn't borrow them from a man. A man could buy and wear his own clothing of any kind, but he shouldn't borrow them from a woman.

The verse is almost surely directed against rites in Syrian religion during Biblical times, in which men and women exchanged garments with one another as a prelude to idolatrous worship and/or public sexual rites, both of which are forbidden to Jews.

The verse doesn't say a word about trousers, dresses, or skirts. Nor does it mention ties, hats, shoes, jackets, suspenders, garters, corsets, boxers, briefs, and so on. They didn't have trousers in Biblical times, so why would something written in the Bible prohibit their use by women?

I'll make a separate post as to what Judaism actually says about modesty.

* Hashem, ha-shem, means "the name," and is what Jews call G*D when not speaking directly to G*D in prayer.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:05 pm


Jewish laws on modesty are fairly specific. The body is to be covered from below the bend in the knee, up to the collarbone, and then down to below the bend in the elbow -- even when one is stretching tall, bending over, or sitting down. Also, clothing should be loose enough and/or long enough so that one cannot clearly distinguish the place where the legs meet together, the exact line of the thigh, and the exact shape of the figure (that is, no overly tight clothing). This includes, of course, all parts in between: upper arms, torso, hips, and upper legs. Finally, any boy or man over the age of three years is to cover his head with a hat, cap, or other covering, and is not to shave his beard (though it may be trimmed), nor to cut the "corners of the beard," also known as peyot -- he must keep the locks directly in front of the ears at least long enough to twirl once entirely around his finger. A girl or woman should keep her hair restrained in some way (barrette, headband, ponytail, braid) once she reaches the age of twelve, and once she marries, she should cover her hair; authorities disagree on how much (could stay with the barrette/braid/ponytail philosophy, or it could be all the way into covering every single strand of hair on the head).

For men, the body-covering rules mean that trousers should be loose enough to avoid 'definition' in the groin area, and that he must not allow a woman (other than his wife) to see him without these parts covered. Most modern clothing for men actually does follow the rules, as long as the sleeves and legs are long enough and the clothing is not too tight. It's hard to tell whether a Jewish man is keeping the laws of modesty simply because the non-Jewish world tends to wear clothing that's modest by Jewish standards, too. Jeans, a long-sleeved T-shirt, and a baseball cap would work fine for a Jewish man, though if he enters a place where one shouldn't wear a baseball cap, he should remove it and reveal his kippah, which also fulfills the requirement of head covering for men.

For women, the clothing rules mean loose trousers, if trousers are worn; preferably, a tunic or shirt should go over them, long enough to cover the pelvic/groinal area. Dresses or skirts are also encouraged, since they disguise the line of the thigh as well as avoiding definition of the groin area. With skirts and dresses, hems should be long enough to cover the knee even while one is sitting down or stretching up to reach something high. Hair coverings for married women can, according to some authorities, be identical to those for men, or they can be fully covering (such as a snood or a cleverly tied scarf), or they can simply be accomplished by letting the hair cover itself, such as in a braid, in which each hair is partly covered by the others in taking turns. The woman's hair can be covered by a wig as well, even if the wig is made out of her own hair! As long as the hair is not growing out of her own head at the time, any hair (real or imitation, her own or someone else's) is fine.

There are MANY different reasons one could cite for the Jewish laws of modesty, but the truth is, we don't know for sure why G*D instituted those laws. We follow them, in the hope that eventually we will understand.

(That said, I'm glad I've got a good reason to cover my hair. Not being able to brush it on Sabbath makes it very messy, and I'm glad no one can see it!)

Divash

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sickday
Captain

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:14 pm


Divash, do those modesty laws have to be obeyed at all times or just in the synagogue? Because I see Orthodox women without headcoverings all the time, but when they enter the synagogue, they cover their heads with a hat if married.

Is this just Modern Orthodox?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:34 am


roothands
Divash, do those modesty laws have to be obeyed at all times or just in the synagogue? Because I see Orthodox women without headcoverings all the time, but when they enter the synagogue, they cover their heads with a hat if married.

Is this just Modern Orthodox?


First of all, sorry for removing your size code, but it was so small that I can't read it.

The modesty laws are for all times, in all situations in which the genders mix. I see a lot of women who affiliate with Orthodox congregations, but who don't cover there hair other than for synagogue. I think it's a good start and it's very commendable to honor the minhag (custom) of the congregation, but 'orthodox' means 'following the law', so inwardly I hope that they'll eventually aspire to a higher level of observance. By the same token, I'm sure that they hope I'll eventually have children. As long as they're polite to me and don't pressure me in that regard, I don't say a word about their lack of hair covering outside the synagogue.

Divash

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Sir BlackHeart

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:45 pm


Cougar Draven
NewFoundLight
Cougar Draven
Let's not fight, now.

I will compound the question, and ask, on behalf of Judeo-Christian faith, why exactly the creation myth specifically mentions that Adam and Eve were embarrassed by their nudity. If they were physically comfortable, and there was no inclement weather, they had no reason to be embarrassed.

I've been trying to figure this out for about a decade. I figure if I remove the main support, it's all over.
well there was a tree they ate from that gave the notions of right and wrong....so I guess it also gave them the notions that being naked is a no, no. surprised


By what logic was that given? Up until we developed some sort of religion, no creature ever wore clothing, or tried to cover up anything.
well first what are you talking about? cause I'm talking about in the sense of the Bible.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:46 pm


Divash
kleokriesel
Deuteronomy 22:5 says that women shouldn't wear pants and men shouldn't wear dresses or skirts


Not exactly. It says "Lo-yi'h'yeh k'li-never al-ishah, v'lo-yilbash gever simlat ishah, ki to'avat HASHEM elo(k)eicha kol-oseh eileh." A woman shall not wear that which pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for whoever does these things is an abomination to HASHEM your G*D.

The verse says, essentially, that while I could buy and wear my own clothes of any kind, I shouldn't borrow them from a man. A man could buy and wear his own clothing of any kind, but he shouldn't borrow them from a woman.

The verse is almost surely directed against rites in Syrian religion during Biblical times, in which men and women exchanged garments with one another as a prelude to idolatrous worship and/or public sexual rites, both of which are forbidden to Jews.

The verse doesn't say a word about trousers, dresses, or skirts. Nor does it mention ties, hats, shoes, jackets, suspenders, garters, corsets, boxers, briefs, and so on. They didn't have trousers in Biblical times, so why would something written in the Bible prohibit their use by women?

I'll make a separate post as to what Judaism actually says about modesty.

* Hashem, ha-shem, means "the name," and is what Jews call G*D when not speaking directly to G*D in prayer.
can i get a translator site for what you just said.

Sir BlackHeart


Sir BlackHeart

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:48 pm


kleokriesel
NewFoundLight
Those verses are busted and by that I mean, I do not agree with them, whats wrong with women adorning themselves?


I'm not saying that I believe that, I'm just quoting
oh, no Biblically speaking I do not agree with that command or whatever Yaweh or moses was trying to speak in action.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:08 am


NewFoundLight
Cougar Draven
NewFoundLight
Cougar Draven
Let's not fight, now.

I will compound the question, and ask, on behalf of Judeo-Christian faith, why exactly the creation myth specifically mentions that Adam and Eve were embarrassed by their nudity. If they were physically comfortable, and there was no inclement weather, they had no reason to be embarrassed.

I've been trying to figure this out for about a decade. I figure if I remove the main support, it's all over.
well there was a tree they ate from that gave the notions of right and wrong....so I guess it also gave them the notions that being naked is a no, no. surprised


By what logic was that given? Up until we developed some sort of religion, no creature ever wore clothing, or tried to cover up anything.
well first what are you talking about? cause I'm talking about in the sense of the Bible.


And I'm asking you why. As in, why did we suddenly feel ashamed of our nakedness, to paraphrase Genesis?

Cougar Draven


RoseRose

PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:21 pm


Cougar Draven
NewFoundLight
Cougar Draven
NewFoundLight
Cougar Draven
Let's not fight, now.

I will compound the question, and ask, on behalf of Judeo-Christian faith, why exactly the creation myth specifically mentions that Adam and Eve were embarrassed by their nudity. If they were physically comfortable, and there was no inclement weather, they had no reason to be embarrassed.

I've been trying to figure this out for about a decade. I figure if I remove the main support, it's all over.
well there was a tree they ate from that gave the notions of right and wrong....so I guess it also gave them the notions that being naked is a no, no. surprised


By what logic was that given? Up until we developed some sort of religion, no creature ever wore clothing, or tried to cover up anything.
well first what are you talking about? cause I'm talking about in the sense of the Bible.


And I'm asking you why. As in, why did we suddenly feel ashamed of our nakedness, to paraphrase Genesis?

Because, before Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they were as animals, not knowing the difference between good and evil. After they ate, they knew the difference, and nakedness is something that is private, and it is not good to be naked publically. Thus, they were ashamed of their naked state.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:59 pm


Cougar Draven
NewFoundLight
Cougar Draven
NewFoundLight
Cougar Draven
Let's not fight, now.

I will compound the question, and ask, on behalf of Judeo-Christian faith, why exactly the creation myth specifically mentions that Adam and Eve were embarrassed by their nudity. If they were physically comfortable, and there was no inclement weather, they had no reason to be embarrassed.

I've been trying to figure this out for about a decade. I figure if I remove the main support, it's all over.
well there was a tree they ate from that gave the notions of right and wrong....so I guess it also gave them the notions that being naked is a no, no. surprised


By what logic was that given? Up until we developed some sort of religion, no creature ever wore clothing, or tried to cover up anything.
well first what are you talking about? cause I'm talking about in the sense of the Bible.


And I'm asking you why. As in, why did we suddenly feel ashamed of our nakedness, to paraphrase Genesis?
oh, well I don't know exactly but I am assuming because we became more aware, of right and wrong remember the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil...yea that, maybe they became aware of the notion of shame because they realized they were not clothed.

Sir BlackHeart


Divash

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:58 pm


NewFoundLight
Divash
kleokriesel
Deuteronomy 22:5 says that women shouldn't wear pants and men shouldn't wear dresses or skirts


Not exactly. It says "Lo-yi'h'yeh k'li-never al-ishah, v'lo-yilbash gever simlat ishah, ki to'avat HASHEM elo(k)eicha kol-oseh eileh." A woman shall not wear that which pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for whoever does these things is an abomination to HASHEM your G*D.

The verse says, essentially, that while I could buy and wear my own clothes of any kind, I shouldn't borrow them from a man. A man could buy and wear his own clothing of any kind, but he shouldn't borrow them from a woman.

The verse is almost surely directed against rites in Syrian religion during Biblical times, in which men and women exchanged garments with one another as a prelude to idolatrous worship and/or public sexual rites, both of which are forbidden to Jews.

The verse doesn't say a word about trousers, dresses, or skirts. Nor does it mention ties, hats, shoes, jackets, suspenders, garters, corsets, boxers, briefs, and so on. They didn't have trousers in Biblical times, so why would something written in the Bible prohibit their use by women?

I'll make a separate post as to what Judaism actually says about modesty.

* Hashem, ha-shem, means "the name," and is what Jews call G*D when not speaking directly to G*D in prayer.


can i get a translator site for what you just said.


I translated everything I said. Read the whole post.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:34 am


RoseRose
Cougar Draven
NewFoundLight
Cougar Draven
NewFoundLight
Cougar Draven
Let's not fight, now.

I will compound the question, and ask, on behalf of Judeo-Christian faith, why exactly the creation myth specifically mentions that Adam and Eve were embarrassed by their nudity. If they were physically comfortable, and there was no inclement weather, they had no reason to be embarrassed.

I've been trying to figure this out for about a decade. I figure if I remove the main support, it's all over.
well there was a tree they ate from that gave the notions of right and wrong....so I guess it also gave them the notions that being naked is a no, no. surprised


By what logic was that given? Up until we developed some sort of religion, no creature ever wore clothing, or tried to cover up anything.
well first what are you talking about? cause I'm talking about in the sense of the Bible.


And I'm asking you why. As in, why did we suddenly feel ashamed of our nakedness, to paraphrase Genesis?

Because, before Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they were as animals, not knowing the difference between good and evil. After they ate, they knew the difference, and nakedness is something that is private, and it is not good to be naked publically. Thus, they were ashamed of their naked state.


Well, I know that much. I want to know why it was considered inappropriate.

Cougar Draven


Mongler Of Cocks

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:04 pm


NewFoundLight
kleokriesel
1 Timothy 2:9 says that women should dress modestly and not adorn themselves.

I Corinthians 11:13-16 states that women shall grow their hair long rather than wear a veil to cover themselves

1 Peter 3:3 says that wives shouldn't adorn themselves

Deuteronomy 22:5 says that women shouldn't wear pants and men shouldn't wear dresses or skirts

Isaiah 3:16-23 God will destroy women who wear ornament

And I'm sure there are others, these are just the ones I've Googled on short notice. I'm not Christian, but this was the easiest to go with razz . This is why Pentacostal, Mennonite, and conservative Quaker women wear long skirts, long hair, and little to no makeup and jewelry.
Those verses are busted and by that I mean, I do not agree with them, whats wrong with women adorning themselves?


VANITY

I think that's a deadly sin...yes?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:17 pm


Moonlite Symphony
NewFoundLight
Those verses are busted and by that I mean, I do not agree with them, whats wrong with women adorning themselves?


VANITY

I think that's a deadly sin...yes?


Only in Christianity. Judaism also contains the verse in Isaiah which speaks against fancy-schmancy adornments. The Talmud explains that this means only the adornments which resemble those used in non-Jewish religious rites. Other adornments are fine, and in fact, encouraged, if they help a woman feel attractive and look beautiful to her spouse.

Divash

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Mongler Of Cocks

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:08 pm


Divash
Moonlite Symphony
NewFoundLight
Those verses are busted and by that I mean, I do not agree with them, whats wrong with women adorning themselves?


VANITY

I think that's a deadly sin...yes?


Only in Christianity. Judaism also contains the verse in Isaiah which speaks against fancy-schmancy adornments. The Talmud explains that this means only the adornments which resemble those used in non-Jewish religious rites. Other adornments are fine, and in fact, encouraged, if they help a woman feel attractive and look beautiful to her spouse.
That's fine I suppose. I haven't got anything worthwhile to say to it. I don't believe any of that stuff anyway.
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