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 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:12 am
Alright. I was in the middle of replying to this and my internet failed. You could always think that you were crazy. I mean if a guy suddenly appeared in front of you, said "Hi. It's Jesus." and then disappeared, wouldn't there at least be a tiny nagging doubt about your sanity? Quote: Assuming that I saw him perform a miracle like, say, walking on water. Then yes, of course I would. Does it depend on the miracle? For instance, Jesus making the lame man walk. Quote: Then why do you accept Christ as your personal saviour, something which neither Jews nor Muslims do? Because I like Jesus. I believe he is God and I agree with his teachings. I just think that the Abrahamic religions are more like a massive, divided religion of God. They're just more like three sects of the same religion than most people care to admit. It doesn't mean I agree with them. Quote: I can, and I have disproven God numerous times. Well then, do it. Quote: Hm, then maybe, just maybe it was a bad idea to invite an atheist into the guild. What did you expect me to do? And actually, if you are a Christian you are required not to accept Islam nor Mormonism. Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you're necessarily going to break the rules. The rule about denominations is just so that people don't get into an arguement about whether a certain denomination of Christianity is really 'Christian'. Quote: Do not believe people who believe in a different interpretation than your own. If you believe that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, then you disagree with Muslims. If you don't believe that Jesus came back in America and made a bunch of white people have brown skin, then you disagree with the Mormons. I don't believe in Islam or Mormonism, or else I'd be a Muslim or a Mormon. I just don't believe that they're delusional. Quote: And even if you somehow reinterpreted the Bible to agree with you, if you believe that all religions are correct then this argument does not apply to you. I would also suggest looking into the Baha'i faith. It probably fits your belief system better than any form of Christianity. I don't agree with all religions, you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I just don't believe Islam and Mormonism are 'clearly delusional' because it's just what other people believe. Quote: And even if you somehow reinterpreted the Bible to agree with you, if you believe that all religions are correct then this argument does not apply to you. It's impossible because they directly contradict each other. You'd have to personally believe in a magical omnipotent power that draws all religions to the same conclusion, or a collective consciousness. And either way that contradicts other religions. Quote: I would also suggest looking into the Baha'i faith. It probably fits your belief system better than any form of Christianity. It doesn't. The Baha'i God is unknowable and that directly contradicts my Christian belief that God is knowable. And I'm not going to bother to quote any of the stuff on prayer. Firstly, God says He will answer all prayers, He does not specify when. You can't ask for a cure for cancer 'tomorrow'. It doesn't work that way. Secondly, have you ever heard the phrase "God helps those who help themselves"? If you prayed to God for guidance and then set about trying to find one yourself, God could guide you to the answer. It says "nothing will be impossible to you" and that you can do anything through God, not God will do anything for you. And thirdly, if everyone in the world prayed for a cure for cancer, who knows what would actually happen? You know, what if we already have the cure for cancer and we haven't realized it? It's not like God is going to send fiery letters all across the sky in every language what the cure for cancer is. God's style changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament. His miracles are smaller, but that doesn't mean they're not miracles. I don't believe the Bible is completely literally true. Quote: If you would like additional proof, gather a million faithful believers together into a giant prayer circle. Have them all pray together in Jesus' name that God cures every case of cancer on the planet tomorrow. Pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Now, we certainly have two or more people gathered together, and they have asked in Jesus' name, and we have not one but a million faithful believers who, by definition, have faith and believe. We have fulfilled every one of Jesus' requirements. Will Jesus answer the prayer now? Of course not. Your prayer will go unanswered, in direct defiance to Jesus' promises in the Bible. In fact, if you pray for anything that is impossible, your prayer will always go unanswered. You can't know that it wouldn't work, since such a thing has never happened. Quote: The fact is, God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that "God answers prayers" is an illusion created by human imagination. He's answered mine, and He does all the time. The only prayer I can think of that He hasn't answered was a prayer for world peace. But God isn't responsible for war, people are. I can bet you anything that if all the people in the world prayed for peace we'd have it though. Coincedince? Maybe, but just because something has a rational explanation doesn't mean God was not behind it. He doesn't alway have to defy the laws of physics. Quote: Yes it can. We've already gone over this. Yet I haven't seen you prove God doesn't exist. Quote: Precisely. Why are you arguing with me? I'm not saying I can prove Jesus is God, I'm saying you can't prove He's not. On the prayer studies, I've read them. And maybe God doesn't want to prove prayer is effective because it would detract from the free will to believe what you want. And another thing, if every prayer in the world was answered all the time there would be absolute chaos. Sorry for the horrible reference, but haven't you seen Bruce Almighty? Quote: The belief in prayer is a superstition. It has been proven scientifically over and over again. When a prayer appears to be answered, it is a coincidence. Quite simply, prayer has absolutely no effect on the outcome of any event. The "power of prayer" is actually "the power of coincidence." Prayer does not work because God is completely imaginary. So yes, despite what you may believe, it has been scientifically proven that prayer has absolutely no affect on the outcome. Well, it works for me, so I'm going to continue to pray. It's just cause and effect. And you still haven't proven God is imaginary. Quote: God is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. Yes? If God is omnipotent, He can do anything. If God is omniscient, He can concieve and knows everything. If God is omnibenevolent, he loves everything infinitly. So my question is this: If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, why is there pain? God obviously doesn't want us to go through pain, He's omnibenevolent. God could easily stop us from going through pain, He omniscient. God could easily concieve a world without pain with all other great things like learning from our mistakes and free will and all that jazz, He's omniscient. So why is there pain? That, my friend, is called a logical fallacy. There are plenty of them associated with God. There's an answer to that question and that is that God wants us to go through pain. And even an omniscient being cannot concieve of something that is impossible. We just don't know what's impossible and what we just can't concieve of. Quote: Why are you a Christian and not a Muslim? For many reasons. I didn't say I believed in Islam I said I didn't think it was delusional. The Bible isn't a valid source for invalidating evidence, and that's what I have to contradict Islam. Besides the fact that many of his miracles defy the laws of physics... Quote: You have no proof that there isn't a Flying Spaghetti monster. Do you believe in him, too? No, but I love that site. It's hilarious. Well I have no proof that there is a God, and I believe there is. I don't rely on proof to make all my decisions. Quote: I can and I have. I know you're not telling me that. However, your Bible does. I'm arguing the Bible, not you. But you haven't. And besides, the Bible doesn't say you have to believe in God. It says God exists. Quote: Eh, technically...Joseph Smith could be considered a false prophet. At least, he has been by the Catholic Church. Well I'm not a Catholic. Quote: You're not even the original person I was debating with. As I stated before, more than likely this argument does not apply to you. Stop arguing it. Well I enjoy it, and I disagree with you, and all topics are open to dicussion for everybody. Quote: So their religion was false, according to you. I believe their religion is false, yes. But I can't prove it. Same goes for the Aztecs. And regardless of the reason for praying towards Mecca, that's the ultimate result. Quote: Contrary to popular belief, ignorance is not bliss. But I suppose that's a matter of opinion. I choose not to be a sheep. Doubt causes anxiety, and if I had blind faith in God I would not miss my ability to doubt. And what of choosing not to be a sheep. If that makes me a sheep then you're a sheep of atheism. You never have a nagging feeling that there is a God. I believe what I believe because of me, not because of the flock.
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:13 pm
Captain_Theoretical Alright. I was in the middle of replying to this and my internet failed. You could always think that you were crazy. I mean if a guy suddenly appeared in front of you, said "Hi. It's Jesus." and then disappeared, wouldn't there at least be a tiny nagging doubt about your sanity? Yes, but I always doubt. That's why I'm a Weak Atheist and not a Strong Atheist. I would still become a Christian. Quote: Quote: Assuming that I saw him perform a miracle like, say, walking on water. Then yes, of course I would. Does it depend on the miracle? For instance, Jesus making the lame man walk. If I knew the guy was actually lame, then that one would work. Quote: Quote: Then why do you accept Christ as your personal saviour, something which neither Jews nor Muslims do? Because I like Jesus. I believe he is God and I agree with his teachings. I just think that the Abrahamic religions are more like a massive, divided religion of God. They're just more like three sects of the same religion than most people care to admit. It doesn't mean I agree with them. If you don't believe what they believe, then you think that what they are doing is pointless. If you think what they are doing is pointless, then you think that they are delusional. Quote: Quote: I can, and I have disproven God numerous times. Well then, do it. The idea of free will is an illusion. God has this "great plan" that you can't change. Destiny, if you will. Tell me, how does this coincide with free will? It doesn't, it's another logical fallacy. Quote: Quote: Hm, then maybe, just maybe it was a bad idea to invite an atheist into the guild. What did you expect me to do? And actually, if you are a Christian you are required not to accept Islam nor Mormonism. Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you're necessarily going to break the rules. The rule about denominations is just so that people don't get into an arguement about whether a certain denomination of Christianity is really 'Christian'. Not my problem, then. I think they're all wrong. Quote: Quote: Do not believe people who believe in a different interpretation than your own. If you believe that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, then you disagree with Muslims. If you don't believe that Jesus came back in America and made a bunch of white people have brown skin, then you disagree with the Mormons. I don't believe in Islam or Mormonism, or else I'd be a Muslim or a Mormon. I just don't believe that they're delusional. Yes, you do. Otherwise you would face Mecca when you prayed. Quote: Quote: And even if you somehow reinterpreted the Bible to agree with you, if you believe that all religions are correct then this argument does not apply to you. I would also suggest looking into the Baha'i faith. It probably fits your belief system better than any form of Christianity. I don't agree with all religions, you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I just don't believe Islam and Mormonism are 'clearly delusional' because it's just what other people believe. Then what do you believe about them? Quote: Quote: And even if you somehow reinterpreted the Bible to agree with you, if you believe that all religions are correct then this argument does not apply to you. It's impossible because they directly contradict each other. You'd have to personally believe in a magical omnipotent power that draws all religions to the same conclusion, or a collective consciousness. And either way that contradicts other religions. Precisely. So religions besides yours must be delusional, no? Quote: Quote: I would also suggest looking into the Baha'i faith. It probably fits your belief system better than any form of Christianity. It doesn't. The Baha'i God is unknowable and that directly contradicts my Christian belief that God is knowable. And I'm not going to bother to quote any of the stuff on prayer. Firstly, God says He will answer all prayers, He does not specify when. You can't ask for a cure for cancer 'tomorrow'. It doesn't work that way. I would like to show you the best optical illusion in the world. For this optical illusion to work, I am going to start by assuming that you are a Christian. I am also going to assume that you are a smart person. You have an education, and you have what people call "common sense". If you are a smart Christian like this, you have been looking at this illusion ever since you became a Christian, but you have never been able to "see" it. In the next five minutes or so, you will be able to see this illusion for the very first time. So let's start at the beginning: Since you are a Christian, you believe in God and you believe in the power of prayer. You probably agree with this statement from Christianity.com: "What are you praying for today? Is someone you love sick? Are you having problems with your spouse? Are you or your spouse suffering from an illness or an addiction? Are you hoping for a job transfer, or a positive result on a pregnancy test? Are you anxious about starting a new career? Having financial trouble? Don’t give up. God is faithful. Trust Him, in the little things and in the big. He cares, and He is there. Don’t lose hope. A miracle of your very own could be right around the corner." - Christianity.com This is a very important promise for Christians. God cares about you. God can perform miracles. All that you have to do is pray, and God will help you. So let's imagine that one day you have a big problem, and you pray to God for a solution. However, God does not answer your prayer. There is no response at all. You are disappointed, perhaps angry, and you do not understand what went wrong. If you talk to another Christian or look on the web and ask, "Why didn't God answer my prayer?" you will hear a response like this: "We have to trust that He knows what’s best. God answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'. Sometimes the hardest answer to accept is 'wait'. It’s difficult to be left in limbo, wondering how God will handle our problem, but we must have faith that He will!" - Christianity.com 'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait'. That is how God answers prayers. You have probably heard this a thousand times, and you believe it completely. 'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait' may sound comforting, but here is the thing that I would like to help you understand. 'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait' is actually an optical illusion. Let me show you how this illusion works. Imagine that I put a jug of milk on the counter, and I say to you, "Pray to the jug of milk." I tell you that if you pray to the jug of milk, it will answer all your prayers. You are skeptical, but you agree to try it. You pray to the jug of milk to give you $1,000. Now I say to you, "The jug of milk answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'. Let's see what happens." What is going to happen? There are three scenarios: Scenario 1: Out of the blue, a check for $1,100 arrives in the mail tomorrow. It is an unexpected tax refund check from the IRS. I say to you, "See! The jug of milk answered your prayer!" Scenario 2: Seven weeks later, out of the blue, you get a cost-of-living raise and it happens to increase your salary by $1,200 per year. I say to you, "See! The jug of milk answered your prayer! You just had to wait patiently." Scenario 3: Nothing happens for six months. You ask me, "Why?" I say, "We have to trust that the milk jug knows what’s best. Let's be patient." Look at what happened: In scenarios 1 and 2, the jug of milk really did answer your prayers. And in scenario 3 we are waiting for it to answer your prayer, knowing that it is doing what is best for you. Now let me ask you: Will you get down on your knees and worship this jug of milk? Probably not. But why not? You won't worship the jug of milk because you know it didn't do anything. The jug of milk did not "answer" your "prayer"? The milk jug did not cause you to get a raise or get a check in the mail. Did the milk jug do anything at all? No. Absolutely not. You know that. We both know that. It was nothing more than a coincidence. When you pray to a jug of milk, any answered prayer is nothing more than a coincidence. That is obvious to any intelligent person. If the criteria is 'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait' it appears that the jug of milk answers EVERY prayer. But we both know that the jug of milk did nothing. If you are a smart person, you may be starting to see the illusion of prayer: "God answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'." - Christianity.com "The jug of milk answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'." - me "We have to trust that God knows what’s best." - Christianity.com "We have to trust that the milk jug knows what’s best." - me When Christians say "God answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait', it is impossible to lose: - The thing you pray for might coincidentally happen the next day. - Or it might coincidentally happen a week or a month or a year later. - Or it might never happen. 'Yes', 'no' and 'wait' is ALWAYS true, no matter what. It is even true if you pray to a jug of milk. Or a stone idol. Or the planet Jupiter. 'Yes', 'no' and 'wait' is true no matter what you pray to. As a Christian, you have believed that God is answering your prayers. But all that you are seeing is an illusion. The illusion is created by coincidence and the 'yes', 'no' and 'wait' mentality. Since you are a smart person, you should be able to see this now. If we say "God answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'," God can't lose. But in reality, "God" is no different than a jug of milk. The jug of milk can't lose either. That is the illusion. How do we know this? How do we know that every answered prayer truly is a coincidence? The way to know is to look at every valid scientific study that has been done to test the effectiveness of prayer. Scientists have proven it over and over again: Prayer has absolutely no effect, as I've already shown. Quote: Secondly, have you ever heard the phrase "God helps those who help themselves"? If you prayed to God for guidance and then set about trying to find one yourself, God could guide you to the answer. It says "nothing will be impossible to you" and that you can do anything through God, not God will do anything for you. Um...Yes it does: Matthew 18:19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them. James 5:15-16 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. John 14:12-14 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. Quote: And thirdly, if everyone in the world prayed for a cure for cancer, who knows what would actually happen? Probably nothing. Quote: You know, what if we already have the cure for cancer and we haven't realized it? It's not like God is going to send fiery letters all across the sky in every language what the cure for cancer is. God's style changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament. His miracles are smaller, but that doesn't mean they're not miracles. I don't believe the Bible is completely literally true. Here's a question: How do you know which parts are to be taken literally and which parts aren't? Quote: Quote: If you would like additional proof, gather a million faithful believers together into a giant prayer circle. Have them all pray together in Jesus' name that God cures every case of cancer on the planet tomorrow. Pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Now, we certainly have two or more people gathered together, and they have asked in Jesus' name, and we have not one but a million faithful believers who, by definition, have faith and believe. We have fulfilled every one of Jesus' requirements. Will Jesus answer the prayer now? Of course not. Your prayer will go unanswered, in direct defiance to Jesus' promises in the Bible. In fact, if you pray for anything that is impossible, your prayer will always go unanswered. You can't know that it wouldn't work, since such a thing has never happened. Want to bet? Millions of people pray for world peace every day. Still hasn't happened yet. Millions of people pray for safety every day. A lot of those people have died and been hurt, not necessarily by human actions. Quote: Quote: The fact is, God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that "God answers prayers" is an illusion created by human imagination. He's answered mine, and He does all the time. The only prayer I can think of that He hasn't answered was a prayer for world peace. But God isn't responsible for war, people are. I can bet you anything that if all the people in the world prayed for peace we'd have it though. Coincedince? Maybe, but just because something has a rational explanation doesn't mean God was not behind it. He doesn't alway have to defy the laws of physics. I think pretty much everyone in the world has prayed for world peace. I know I have. Quote: Quote: Yes it can. We've already gone over this. Yet I haven't seen you prove God doesn't exist. Here's another one: God created plants before he created the sun to drive their photosynthetic processes. Explain that. Quote: Quote: Precisely. Why are you arguing with me? I'm not saying I can prove Jesus is God, I'm saying you can't prove He's not. On the prayer studies, I've read them. And maybe God doesn't want to prove prayer is effective because it would detract from the free will to believe what you want. So he'd rather let people die from cancer? Quote: And another thing, if every prayer in the world was answered all the time there would be absolute chaos. Sorry for the horrible reference, but haven't you seen Bruce Almighty? I have. It doesn't change the fact that he promised us he would answer our prayers. Quote: Quote: The belief in prayer is a superstition. It has been proven scientifically over and over again. When a prayer appears to be answered, it is a coincidence. Quite simply, prayer has absolutely no effect on the outcome of any event. The "power of prayer" is actually "the power of coincidence." Prayer does not work because God is completely imaginary. So yes, despite what you may believe, it has been scientifically proven that prayer has absolutely no affect on the outcome. Well, it works for me, so I'm going to continue to pray. It's just cause and effect. And you still haven't proven God is imaginary. I have. Scientifically, as a matter of fact. Quote: Quote: God is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. Yes? If God is omnipotent, He can do anything. If God is omniscient, He can concieve and knows everything. If God is omnibenevolent, he loves everything infinitly. So my question is this: If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, why is there pain? God obviously doesn't want us to go through pain, He's omnibenevolent. God could easily stop us from going through pain, He omniscient. God could easily concieve a world without pain with all other great things like learning from our mistakes and free will and all that jazz, He's omniscient. So why is there pain? That, my friend, is called a logical fallacy. There are plenty of them associated with God. There's an answer to that question and that is that God wants us to go through pain. And even an omniscient being cannot concieve of something that is impossible. We just don't know what's impossible and what we just can't concieve of. Nothing's impossible if you're omnipotent. confused Quote: Quote: Why are you a Christian and not a Muslim? For many reasons. I didn't say I believed in Islam I said I didn't think it was delusional. The Bible isn't a valid source for invalidating evidence, and that's what I have to contradict Islam. So why do you accept Christianity over Islam if one isn't any more credible than the other? Lethkhar Besides the fact that many of his miracles defy the laws of physics... You forgot about this part. Quote: Quote: You have no proof that there isn't a Flying Spaghetti monster. Do you believe in him, too? No, but I love that site. It's hilarious. Well I have no proof that there is a God, and I believe there is. I don't rely on proof to make all my decisions. Precisely why your religion is fallable. Quote: Quote: I can and I have. I know you're not telling me that. However, your Bible does. I'm arguing the Bible, not you. But you haven't. I have. You haven't adequately refuted any of my points thus far. Quote: And besides, the Bible doesn't say you have to believe in God. It says God exists. No, you're right. It doesn't say you have to believe in God... ..It just says that if you don't believe in God then you will burn for eternity "and there will be great gnashing of teeth". Quote: Quote: Eh, technically...Joseph Smith could be considered a false prophet. At least, he has been by the Catholic Church. Well I'm not a Catholic. Good for you. You directly contradict the Bible. You're supposed to follow Peter's Church, which is the Roman Catholic one. Quote: Quote: You're not even the original person I was debating with. As I stated before, more than likely this argument does not apply to you. Stop arguing it. Well I enjoy it, and I disagree with you, and all topics are open to dicussion for everybody. Ok, then. At least provide some veritable arguments. Quote: Quote: So their religion was false, according to you. I believe their religion is false, yes. But I can't prove it. Same goes for the Aztecs. And regardless of the reason for praying towards Mecca, that's the ultimate result. So you think they're delusional. Quote: Quote: Contrary to popular belief, ignorance is not bliss. But I suppose that's a matter of opinion. I choose not to be a sheep. Doubt causes anxiety, and if I had blind faith in God I would not miss my ability to doubt. And what of choosing not to be a sheep. If that makes me a sheep then you're a sheep of atheism. You never have a nagging feeling that there is a God. I'm a Weak Atheist. As a matter of fact, I do. Quote: I believe what I believe because of me, not because of the flock. Then try to think rationally for once and look at the evidence before you. Your God does not follow logic and has broken his promises of prayer.
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:40 pm
Quote: Yes, but I always doubt. That's why I'm a Weak Atheist and not a Strong Atheist. I would still become a Christian. I've gone between atheism and Christianity a lot. Every time I've gone back to Christianity it's been because of a sudden revelation or a dream or whatnot. Going to atheism is more like a slow decline in faith. Funny how that is. It's like atheism is on the other side of this fence saying "Come on. What are you, an idiot? Come over here, we have science." But then it's just happier on the Christian side. You know, the birds are singing. Everything is right with the world. But then it's more interesting on the atheist side. Life is open to a million possibilities. Then again, it makes life sort of pointless because you just die and that's it. And really I'm getting off topic, but it's tough. Quote: If I knew the guy was actually lame, then that one would work. So, what if you just saw this huge crowd and this guy who appeared to be lame was there, and Jesus told him to get up and walk and he said he couldn't but Jesus insisted, and the guy got up and walked and proclaimed it was a miracle? Quote: If you don't believe what they believe, then you think that what they are doing is pointless. If you think what they are doing is pointless, then you think that they are delusional. It's not pointless for them. They're showing a devotion to God in a different way than me. I don't think praying towards Mecca, or separating meat and dairy is necessary, and I wouldn't do it. But I don't have an evidence to show that they're doing it the wrong way. The Bible is usually only a credible source when we're talking Christianity. Quote: The idea of free will is an illusion. God has this "great plan" that you can't change. Destiny, if you will. Tell me, how does this coincide with free will? It doesn't, it's another logical fallacy. I believe that you can go whatever way you want, but it's just all going to be the same in the end. There are multiple paths, with very different scenery, and you can choose which one you want to take, but they all lead to the same place. When God's plan is completed the end result will be the same, but how we get there is up to us. Quote: Yes, you do. Otherwise you would face Mecca when you prayed. Delusional would mean I had invalidating evidence. Which I don't. Quote: Then what do you believe about them? That they're wrong but I can't prove them wrong and I respect their right to believe whatever they want to believe. Quote: Precisely. So religions besides yours must be delusional, no? I don't consider the Bible to invalidate other religions because I can't prove the Bible is true. Therefore I have no invalidating evidence, and they're not delusional according to your definition. Well, I'm not going to quote the whole jug of milk thing. But here's what I have to say to it. Let's say you're right, and God doesn't exist. What if the following scenario happens with the jug of milk? I think it's silly and the jug of milk won't answer my prayers, but I pray anyway, just to test it. What I pray for happens. So I do it again. My prayers are answered again. What I pray for continually happens. This continues for a year or so (for the purpose of this, the jug of milk is actually empty and won't go bad). I start just talking to the milk, and praying for guidance and looking for advice. The jug of milk never fails to help me decide what to do or comfort me when I feel sad. And then I look at the jug of milk and suddenly realize how stupid the jug of milk is. I throw it out and instantly I feel like a part of me is missing. I liked having the jug of milk around. I dig through the garbage and find the jug of milk. I put it back on the counter and my relationship with the jug of milk is only strengthened. I love the jug of milk. I've come to depend on the jug of milk. And this continues for a while. Then one day a friend sees the jug of milk on the counter and says "You've been worshipping a jug of milk? What are you, delusional? Throw it away. And see a psychiatrist." Sure, the jug of milk is stupid, but would you throw it away (assuming for the sake of this that worshipping a jug of milk was socially acceptable)? Quote: Here's a question: How do you know which parts are to be taken literally and which parts aren't? Logic? For instance, the universe could not have been created in six days plus a day to rest. Quote: Want to bet? Millions of people pray for world peace every day. Still hasn't happened yet. Millions of people pray for safety every day. A lot of those people have died and been hurt, not necessarily by human actions. They're not all praying in unison for the same thing. Quote: I think pretty much everyone in the world has prayed for world peace. I know I have. If everyone in the entire world decided they wanted world peace, it would happen. Quote: Here's another one: God created plants before he created the sun to drive their photosynthetic processes. Explain that. The first thing he created was light. He said "Let there be light". He may have created the sun later as the source of light, but he's omnipotent so he can do that. Quote: So he'd rather let people die from cancer? They are going to die eventually. Besides, He's offering a much better deal in heaven than He is on Earth. Quote: I have. It doesn't change the fact that he promised us he would answer our prayers. Well, that wasn't God directly making the promise. That was people saying that God had made the promise already. Quote: I have. Scientifically, as a matter of fact. Well, actually you can't. You can't prove prove that God isn't a big invisible apendage to the universe that does absolutely nothing. Not that I believe it, but you can't prove it wrong. Quote: Nothing's impossible if you're omnipotent. Well, maybe he wanted to set some rules in the universe. There can only be happiness if there is sadness, there can only be joy if there is suffering and all that stuff. Quote: So why do you accept Christianity over Islam if one isn't any more credible than the other? Because it makes more sense to me and I believe it. Plus I was raised Christian. Quote: Precisely why your religion is fallable. Nothing is infallible but God. Therefore, I choose to take a leap into the completely fallable to hopefully catch a glimpse of the infallible. Quote: No, you're right. It doesn't say you have to believe in God... ..It just says that if you don't believe in God then you will burn for eternity "and there will be great gnashing of teeth". You could be a pyromaniac who particularly enjoys gnashing their teeth. Who knows? Quote: Good for you. You directly contradict the Bible. You're supposed to follow Peter's Church, which is the Roman Catholic one. Well, there is a very long distance from Peter to the current Pope. Quote: Ok, then. At least provide some veritable arguments. I'm trying my best. It's hard to argue with someone who thinks you're delusional. Quote: So you think they're delusional. No invalidating evidence. Only my beliefs. Quote: I'm a Weak Atheist. As a matter of fact, I do. Well, at least Weak Atheist sounds better than Weak Christian. Quote: Then try to think rationally for once and look at the evidence before you. Your God does not follow logic and has broken his promises of prayer. God's logic is different than yours because He's omniscient. And omnipotent. And whatever. I know that isn't using proper logic and common sense, but it's just faith and all that nonsense. And I do think rationally, but rationality only goes so far. For the record, God never broke his promise to me.
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:31 pm
Captain_Theoretical Quote: Yes, but I always doubt. That's why I'm a Weak Atheist and not a Strong Atheist. I would still become a Christian. I've gone between atheism and Christianity a lot. Every time I've gone back to Christianity it's been because of a sudden revelation or a dream or whatnot. Going to atheism is more like a slow decline in faith. Funny how that is. It's like atheism is on the other side of this fence saying "Come on. What are you, an idiot? Come over here, we have science." But then it's just happier on the Christian side. You know, the birds are singing. Everything is right with the world. But then it's more interesting on the atheist side. Life is open to a million possibilities. Then again, it makes life sort of pointless because you just die and that's it. And really I'm getting off topic, but it's tough. I disagree. Becoming an atheist was like a huge breath of fresh air after being a Christian. I was suddenly rid of all those affiliations and petty arrogance. And as a fellow of mine once said,"I was never afraid of death. I was always afraid of Hell. Then I realised it was all a lie and life was all of a sudden much happier and meaningful". But yes, it is off-topic. Quote: Quote: If I knew the guy was actually lame, then that one would work. So, what if you just saw this huge crowd and this guy who appeared to be lame was there, and Jesus told him to get up and walk and he said he couldn't but Jesus insisted, and the guy got up and walked and proclaimed it was a miracle? As I said, if I knew the guy was actually lame then yes. Quote: Quote: If you don't believe what they believe, then you think that what they are doing is pointless. If you think what they are doing is pointless, then you think that they are delusional. It's not pointless for them. They're showing a devotion to God in a different way than me. I don't think praying towards Mecca, or separating meat and dairy is necessary, and I wouldn't do it. But I don't have an evidence to show that they're doing it the wrong way. The Bible is usually only a credible source when we're talking Christianity. So why Christianity over any other religion? Quote: Quote: The idea of free will is an illusion. God has this "great plan" that you can't change. Destiny, if you will. Tell me, how does this coincide with free will? It doesn't, it's another logical fallacy. I believe that you can go whatever way you want, but it's just all going to be the same in the end. There are multiple paths, with very different scenery, and you can choose which one you want to take, but they all lead to the same place. When God's plan is completed the end result will be the same, but how we get there is up to us. So we can't change the end result. There is a lack of free will. Quote: Quote: Yes, you do. Otherwise you would face Mecca when you prayed. Delusional would mean I had invalidating evidence. Which I don't. No, it just means you believe the system is false. Which you do. Quote: Quote: Then what do you believe about them? That they're wrong but I can't prove them wrong and I respect their right to believe whatever they want to believe. Ok, that's the point I'm trying to make. Replace the word "delusional" with that in my argument. It'll work out just the same way. Quote: Quote: Precisely. So religions besides yours must be delusional, no? Quote: I don't consider the Bible to invalidate other religions because I can't prove the Bible is true. Therefore I have no invalidating evidence, and they're not delusional according to your definition. Now, I could provide evidence against Santa. I could also provide evidence against Mormonism and Islam. Do you want me to do so? Well, I'm not going to quote the whole jug of milk thing. But here's what I have to say to it. Let's say you're right, and God doesn't exist. What if the following scenario happens with the jug of milk? I think it's silly and the jug of milk won't answer my prayers, but I pray anyway, just to test it. What I pray for happens. So I do it again. My prayers are answered again. What I pray for continually happens. This continues for a year or so (for the purpose of this, the jug of milk is actually empty and won't go bad). I start just talking to the milk, and praying for guidance and looking for advice. The jug of milk never fails to help me decide what to do or comfort me when I feel sad. And then I look at the jug of milk and suddenly realize how stupid the jug of milk is. I throw it out and instantly I feel like a part of me is missing. I liked having the jug of milk around. I dig through the garbage and find the jug of milk. I put it back on the counter and my relationship with the jug of milk is only strengthened. I love the jug of milk. I've come to depend on the jug of milk. And this continues for a while. Then one day a friend sees the jug of milk on the counter and says "You've been worshipping a jug of milk? What are you, delusional? Throw it away. And see a psychiatrist." Sure, the jug of milk is stupid, but would you throw it away (assuming for the sake of this that worshipping a jug of milk was socially acceptable)? Yes. I would recommend therapy. Especially if you think the jug of milk wrote a book that advocated senseless murder and slavery, and feel the need to show other people this book and convince them to also worship the jug of milk to recieve eternal life. Quote: Quote: Here's a question: How do you know which parts are to be taken literally and which parts aren't? Logic? For instance, the universe could not have been created in six days plus a day to rest. So, am I to take this part literally or suppositionally? Genesis 19:24-19:26 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. Quote: Quote: Want to bet? Millions of people pray for world peace every day. Still hasn't happened yet. Millions of people pray for safety every day. A lot of those people have died and been hurt, not necessarily by human actions. They're not all praying in unison for the same thing. Since when do they all have to be perfectly in unison? confused Quote: Quote: I think pretty much everyone in the world has prayed for world peace. I know I have. If everyone in the entire world decided they wanted world peace, it would happen. You would think. Unfortunately, because of disagreements like religion, even the desire for world peace by everyone would not end in world peace. Quote: Quote: Here's another one: God created plants before he created the sun to drive their photosynthetic processes. Explain that. The first thing he created was light. He said "Let there be light". He may have created the sun later as the source of light, but he's omnipotent so he can do that. So where'd the light come from before then? Quote: Quote: So he'd rather let people die from cancer? They are going to die eventually. Besides, He's offering a much better deal in heaven than He is on Earth. We'll just ignore their friends and families... rolleyes Quote: Quote: I have. It doesn't change the fact that he promised us he would answer our prayers. Well, that wasn't God directly making the promise. That was people saying that God had made the promise already. So you think the disciples lied? Quote: Quote: I have. Scientifically, as a matter of fact. Well, actually you can't. You can't prove prove that God isn't a big invisible apendage to the universe that does absolutely nothing. Not that I believe it, but you can't prove it wrong. No, but I can disprove the God in the Bible. Quote: Quote: Nothing's impossible if you're omnipotent. Well, maybe he wanted to set some rules in the universe. There can only be happiness if there is sadness, there can only be joy if there is suffering and all that stuff. I'm sure if an omnipotent being wanted there to be joy without suffering, that He could do that. He can do anything. Quote: Quote: So why do you accept Christianity over Islam if one isn't any more credible than the other? Because it makes more sense to me and I believe it. Plus I was raised Christian. Point proven. When I was talking to that other person, I was trying make them look at their religion objectively, the same way they view Islam. You already do so. Congratulations. Quote: Quote: Precisely why your religion is fallable. Nothing is infallible but God. Therefore, I choose to take a leap into the completely fallable to hopefully catch a glimpse of the infallible. Ok, good luck with that. Quote: Quote: No, you're right. It doesn't say you have to believe in God... ..It just says that if you don't believe in God then you will burn for eternity "and there will be great gnashing of teeth". You could be a pyromaniac who particularly enjoys gnashing their teeth. Who knows? Yeah, except I'm not. Quote: Quote: Good for you. You directly contradict the Bible. You're supposed to follow Peter's Church, which is the Roman Catholic one. Well, there is a very long distance from Peter to the current Pope. That there is. But the Roman Catholic Church is still the original one, no? Quote: Quote: Ok, then. At least provide some veritable arguments. I'm trying my best. It's hard to argue with someone who thinks you're delusional. I know what you mean. sweatdrop Quote: Quote: So you think they're delusional. No invalidating evidence. Only my beliefs. Sorry, you believe they are wrong. Quote: Quote: I'm a Weak Atheist. As a matter of fact, I do. Well, at least Weak Atheist sounds better than Weak Christian. Hm...Yeah, at least I know I'm going to Hell if I'm wrong. You...Well, even if you hold your belief you're still going to Hell for doubting. Quote: Quote: Then try to think rationally for once and look at the evidence before you. Your God does not follow logic and has broken his promises of prayer. God's logic is different than yours because He's omniscient. And omnipotent. And whatever. I know that isn't using proper logic and common sense, but it's just faith and all that nonsense. And I do think rationally, but rationality only goes so far. Oh, great...You know, whenever I get into a good discussion with a Christian, they always pull this "God doesn't have to follow logic" s**t... If God doesn't follow logic, which may be true, then we cannot discuss him. Logic is a common ground which humans use to determine whether or not something can occur. Nothing has ever been recorded to not follow logic and actually exist. Thus, for the scope of this conversation we cannot leave logic. Sorry. Quote: For the record, God never broke his promise to me. But He's broken plenty of other people's. You're just lucky. Or you have very low expectations. Or both.
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Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:37 pm
Lethkhar Yet, when Christians look at their own religion, they are for some reason blind. Why? And no, it has nothing to do with the fact that the Christian story is true. Your rational mind knows that with certainty, and so do four billion others. "I worship one less god than you. Once you understand why you dismiss all the others, then you will understand why I dismiss yours."
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Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:12 pm
Princessofwhatever Lethkhar Yet, when Christians look at their own religion, they are for some reason blind. Why? And no, it has nothing to do with the fact that the Christian story is true. Your rational mind knows that with certainty, and so do four billion others. "I worship one less god than you. Once you understand why you dismiss all the others, then you will understand why I dismiss yours." If you cannot prove it you cannot rationally know it to be true. Quote: I believe that decision is up to the individual to decide for him/herself. I also know that God's existence cannot be disproven. But since you said you could, i would like to see how. I already have. Numerous times. None of them have been debunked yet. Have at them if you wish.
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:47 pm
Lethkhar Princessofwhatever Lethkhar Yet, when Christians look at their own religion, they are for some reason blind. Why? And no, it has nothing to do with the fact that the Christian story is true. Your rational mind knows that with certainty, and so do four billion others. "I worship one less god than you. Once you understand why you dismiss all the others, then you will understand why I dismiss yours." If you cannot prove it you cannot rationally know it to be true. Quote: I believe that decision is up to the individual to decide for him/herself. I also know that God's existence cannot be disproven. But since you said you could, i would like to see how. I already have. Numerous times. None of them have been debunked yet. Have at them if you wish.
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:08 pm
Princessofwhatever Lethkhar Princessofwhatever Lethkhar Yet, when Christians look at their own religion, they are for some reason blind. Why? And no, it has nothing to do with the fact that the Christian story is true. Your rational mind knows that with certainty, and so do four billion others. "I worship one less god than you. Once you understand why you dismiss all the others, then you will understand why I dismiss yours." If you cannot prove it you cannot rationally know it to be true. Quote: I believe that decision is up to the individual to decide for him/herself. I also know that God's existence cannot be disproven. But since you said you could, i would like to see how. I already have. Numerous times. None of them have been debunked yet. Have at them if you wish. Proof comes from verified evidence. You have none. Therefore, you have no proof. Quote: Therefore, i cannot prove it to you. As far as you proving that God does not exist, you have not done it for me so bring your proof to me and i will give a response. (Sigh) Now I have to go back through all those threads... First of all, there's the argument posted in the original post that has yet to be debunked. Then there's this: Lethkhar The idea of free will is an illusion. God has this "great plan" that you can't change. Destiny, if you will. Tell me, how does this coincide with free will? It doesn't, it's another logical fallacy. And this: Lethkhar According the the some faiths, the deity called "God" is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient. This means that He can do anything, He loves everything, and He knows everything. Correct me if I'm wrong. Now, as we all know there is pain in the world. Starving children in Darfur, people being blown up daily. The world is a scary place. So, if God has the power to stop this pain (He can do anything), and He knows about this pain we're experiencing (He knows everything), and He loves us (He loves everything), why doesn't He stop this pain? My conclusion: Either God doesn't exist, or He isn't the same God that these faiths believe He is. Or: Lethkhar God is supposedly omniscient. If He's omniscient, why did He have to go around killing people for thousands of years, then suddenly change His mind and send Jesus to break all of His rules? If He's omniscient, He would've never made a mistake in the first place. This is again seen with the covenant of the arc. Or: Quote: A thoughtful person who thinks about God cannot help but notice the amazing contradictions. They are everywhere you look. Here is one very simple example. On the day Moses comes down from Mount Sinai with the stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments, he discovers that the Israelites have created a golden calf. To punish the people, Moses gathers a group of men and takes the following action in the book of Exodus, Chapter 32: Exodus 32 Then he [Moses] said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. So... one minute we have God carving into stone, "Thou shalt not kill." Then the next minute we have God telling each man to strap a sword to his side and lay waste to thousands. Wouldn't you expect the almighty ruler of the universe to be slightly more consistent than this? 3,000 dead people is a lot of commandment breaking. Obviously that is a total contradiction. The reason why you find contradictions like that in the Bible is because God is imaginary Or, for a simpler approach: Lethkhar Simply take a moment to think about the following statement: "Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!" Yes, this is the central message of Christianity. See John 6:53-54 and Mark 16:16. Think about this message. We have a being who, according to the Standard Model of God, embodies love. Yet, if you do not get down on your knees and worship him, you will be physically tortured for all eternity. What sort of love is that? The utter silliness and contradiction of Jesus' core message should make it obvious to you: God is imaginary. Or maybe this one: Lethkhar Here is a line of reasoning that Christians will frequently use to try to rationalize the complete lack of evidence for God's existence. In the book "The Case for Faith," the author Lee Stroble interviews Peter Kreeft, Ph.D. Dr. Kreeft says the following: "Scripture describes God as a hidden God. You have to make the effort of faith to find him. There are clues you can follow. And if that weren't so, if there was something more or less than clues, it's difficult for me to understand how we could really be free to make a choice about him." Clues? Hidden? According to the Bible God incarnated himself. He created an entire human body named Jesus. That is not a "clue" -- that is a huge, obvious piece of evidence. It is very hard to "hide" a 170-pound human being who is running around performing miracles on every street corner. Then you collect the stories of those miracles and publish them in a book. Where is the hiding in that? There are examples of God's desire for publicity throughout the Bible. The best known is God's parting of the Red Sea in the book of Exodus, chapter 14: Exodus 14 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. That is impressive, and it is utterly obvious. Thousands of Israelites witnessed this event. There are many other events that are equally obvious: manna from heaven, the Ten Commandments carved onto stone tablets, the Passover massacre and so on. All of it is described in the Bible, which God wrote so that billions of people can read about these events and experience them vicariously today. It is pretty hard to hide something that you do in front of thousands of people and then describe and publish in billions of books. Clearly God is not a hidden God. But there is an even more impressive sign that we often forget. If God exists and God wrote the Bible, then rainbows are actually proof that God exists. God is not hiding at all. If you read Genesis 9:12-13 you will find this: Genesis 9:12-13 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth..." What could be more obvious than that? God left a sign for all future generations, according to the Bible. Clearly God does not want to hide. There are also plenty of cases in the New Testament. For example, Matthew, Chapter 17: Matthew 17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" These are not exactly the actions of a God in hiding. Apparently the free wills of Peter, James and John were not that important to God. And again it is published in the Bible so that billions of other people can read about it. Or take this passage from the book of Matthew, Chapter 3: As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Again, not exactly a hidden God. Or this passage from the book of Luke, Chapter 2: Luke 2 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger." Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests." When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about." The free will of the shepherds was certainly tarnished a bit here. In 1 Corinthians 15:6, Paul says, 1 Corinthians 15:6 Then he [Jesus, after the resurrection] appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time. Those 500 people must have lost their free will. And John says: Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John 21:25) That's an awful lot of miracles -- so many that the world would not have room for all the books describing them. Presumably at least one person witnessed each miracle. Think of how many names fill just one phone book. Now imagine a whole world full of phone books. That's a lot of people. Weren't all of their free wills affected? How is God hiding if millions of people saw Jesus and the miracles he performed? Jesus claims to be God, and Jesus is a physical being running around Israel for all to see. He apparently performed millions of miracles in front of millions of people. The God of the Bible is not hiding -- God is so hungry for publicity and exposure that he actually incarnates himself and then starts performing miracles for everyone on the planet. Then he creates a God-breathed book to describe everything and publishes billions of copies all over the world. Yet, for some reason, God wants none of us today to see any of those miracles because he "needs to remain hidden" so that he will not "taint our free wills." Does that seem likely? Or is it more likely that Jesus never performed a real miracle? When you combine this evidence with the fact that Jesus answers no prayers (start with Proof #1), it is clear to us what is actually happening. The idea that God is "hiding" is ridiculous. The fact is that God is completely imaginary, and that is the real reason why there is absoutely no evidence for God today Can't forget this: Quote: Many Christians look at our universe, and especially life on planet Earth, and come to the conclusion that what we see is "irreducible complexity." In the Christian view, the complexity of our universe and life on earth requires an intelligent creator to bring everything into existence. A Christian might say: "Look at how amazing and complex life is. Look at how intricate the human eye is, and the human brain. There is no way that the human eye and the human brain arose spontaneously from the mud. In the same way that a watch cannot appear without a watchmaker, there is no way that all this complexity arose without an intelligent creator." So, we have a question that demands an answer: Did the complexity of life arise spontaneously, or did it require a creator? Christians believe that a creator is essential. Scientists believe that the idea of a "creator" is pure mythology, and that the complexity arose through natural processes like evolution. Who is right? You can actually answer this question yourself with a little logic. Here are the two options: The complexity of life and the universe did arise completely spontaneously and without any intelligence. Nature created all the complexity we see today. An intelligent creator created all of the complexity that we see today because complexity requires intelligence to create it. The advantage of the first option is that it is self-contained. The complexity arose spontaneously. No other explanation is required. The problem with the second option is that it immediately creates an impossibility. If complexity cannot arise without intelligence, then we immediately must ask, "Who created the intelligent creator?" The creator could not spring into existence if complexity requires intelligence. Therefore, God is impossible. This one's fun: Quote: Take one moment to think about a typical Christian and her "answered prayers." For example, there is a Christian housewife in Pasadena who firmly believes that God answered her prayer this morning to remove the mustard stain from her favorite blouse. She prayed to God to help remove the stain, and after she washed it the stain was gone. Praise Jesus! There are tens of millions of true believers in the United States who know that God is personally helping them each day with their trivial prayers. They believe that they have a personal relationship with God, that God hears their prayers each day, and that God has time to reach down and remove the mustard molecules one by one. They believe it with all of their hearts. It makes you wonder: If God has the time and the will to answer these trivial prayers, manipulating the mustard molecules in response to a housewife's prayer, then what the heck is God doing ignoring the billions of people on this planet who are living in stark, abject poverty? It is when you think about this simple question that you realize how imaginary God is and how delusional and completely self-centered Christians can be. One obvious question that any rational person would ask is this: If an all-powerful god is answering the housewife's prayer, why does she need to wash the shirt? Why not hang the stained, wrinkled shirt in the closet and pray for God to clean and press it there? An all-powerful God could just as easily remove the stain in the closet as he can in the washing machine. The second obvious question is this: If God is removing the stain, then why doesn't our housewife pray for poverty to dissappear too? Why doesn't she watch tomorrow as the world magically transforms itself into a poverty-free utopia, in the same way that her blouse became mustard-free? Answer: because God is imaginary. Once you're through with that, I'll post a dozen more. Have fun.
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:38 pm
I am going to separate my response into different posts, the other posts will come later. I dont have time to respond to them all at one time.Lethkhar The idea of free will is an illusion. God has this "great plan" that you can't change. Destiny, if you will. Tell me, how does this coincide with free will? It doesn't, it's another logical fallacy. Lethkhar According the the some faiths, the deity called "God" is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient. This means that He can do anything, He loves everything, and He knows everything. Correct me if I'm wrong. Now, as we all know there is pain in the world. Starving children in Darfur, people being blown up daily. The world is a scary place. So, if God has the power to stop this pain (He can do anything), and He knows about this pain we're experiencing (He knows everything), and He loves us (He loves everything), why doesn't He stop this pain? My conclusion: Either God doesn't exist, or He isn't the same God that these faiths believe He is. Lethkhar God is supposedly omniscient. If He's omniscient, why did He have to go around killing people for thousands of years, then suddenly change His mind and send Jesus to break all of His rules? If He's omniscient, He would've never made a mistake in the first place. This is again seen with the covenant of the arc. Romans 3 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
The Jews of the OT were an example to us. They were also given prophets to gave prophecies of Jesus Christ. Jesus came and fulfilled the prophesies. It all happens in a sequential order according to God's plan.
Quote: A thoughtful person who thinks about God cannot help but notice the amazing contradictions. They are everywhere you look. Here is one very simple example. On the day Moses comes down from Mount Sinai with the stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments, he discovers that the Israelites have created a golden calf. To punish the people, Moses gathers a group of men and takes the following action in the book of Exodus, Chapter 32: Exodus 32 Then he [Moses] said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. So... one minute we have God carving into stone, "Thou shalt not kill." Then the next minute we have God telling each man to strap a sword to his side and lay waste to thousands. Wouldn't you expect the almighty ruler of the universe to be slightly more consistent than this? 3,000 dead people is a lot of commandment breaking. Obviously that is a total contradiction. The reason why you find contradictions like that in the Bible is because God is imaginary
They did wrong, and God punished them. He did do those kinds of things at that time, many times to demonstrate His power. Now, He just reserves the punishment for the end. God didn't let people walk all over Him then, nor does He let those who try go unpunished forever now.
Lethkhar Simply take a moment to think about the following statement: "Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!" Yes, this is the central message of Christianity. See John 6:53-54 and Mark 16:16. Think about this message. We have a being who, according to the Standard Model of God, embodies love. Yet, if you do not get down on your knees and worship him, you will be physically tortured for all eternity. What sort of love is that? The utter silliness and contradiction of Jesus' core message should make it obvious to you: God is imaginary.
God is the most powerful, wise, knowing, etc etc being of the universe. The Ultimate. Alpha and Omega etc etc. He wants people to know that and to be humble. He deserves to be worshipped, and He wants it. It's not that much to ask since He offers us so much (peace, happiness, eternity in paradise, etc). We are not equal with God. We are far below Him. He gives us dominion over things of this world. He just wants us to know our place (over these earthly things, but under Him).
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:57 pm
Dammit. I posted responses to all of these yesterday, but it apparently didn't post it. Princessofwhatever I am going to separate my response into different posts, the other posts will come later. I dont have time to respond to them all at one time.Lethkhar The idea of free will is an illusion. God has this "great plan" that you can't change. Destiny, if you will. Tell me, how does this coincide with free will? It doesn't, it's another logical fallacy. In a football game, the spectators are not responsible for the skill of the players, including past events in the players' lives, or the fact that one of the team's star quarterbacks had a fatal car crash with a drunk driver that week before (True story). God interfered before the game even started. Quote: Lethkhar According the the some faiths, the deity called "God" is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient. This means that He can do anything, He loves everything, and He knows everything. Correct me if I'm wrong. Now, as we all know there is pain in the world. Starving children in Darfur, people being blown up daily. The world is a scary place. So, if God has the power to stop this pain (He can do anything), and He knows about this pain we're experiencing (He knows everything), and He loves us (He loves everything), why doesn't He stop this pain? My conclusion: Either God doesn't exist, or He isn't the same God that these faiths believe He is. Actually, that's not true anymore. Now we have liposuction. If the world was perfect and without pain, why would we need to be strong against pain? Also, God is changing me and my personality against my will by doing something like, say, killing my uncle. (Which He has done) Quote: Another reason why this suffering goes on is because if God stops it, He would be interfering with free will. Mute point. He interferes with our free will anyway. Quote: Many people choose to cause the suffering. If they chose to stop causing it, then suffering would be drastically reduced. If every person chose to not have such suffering in the world, then we could stop it, except natural disasters, but even the suffering from those can be drastically reduced if everyone decided to do what needs to be done I was going to say it, but you nailed it anyway. Some natural disasters are unavoidable. Quote: Lethkhar God is supposedly omniscient. If He's omniscient, why did He have to go around killing people for thousands of years, then suddenly change His mind and send Jesus to break all of His rules? If He's omniscient, He would've never made a mistake in the first place. This is again seen with the covenant of the arc. Except, of course, the people who died before Christ... Quote: The Jews of the OT were an example to us. They were also given prophets to gave prophecies of Jesus Christ. Jesus came and fulfilled the prophesies. It all happens in a sequential order according to God's plan. ...Which defies free will. Quote: Quote: A thoughtful person who thinks about God cannot help but notice the amazing contradictions. They are everywhere you look. Here is one very simple example. On the day Moses comes down from Mount Sinai with the stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments, he discovers that the Israelites have created a golden calf. To punish the people, Moses gathers a group of men and takes the following action in the book of Exodus, Chapter 32: Exodus 32 Then he [Moses] said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. So... one minute we have God carving into stone, "Thou shalt not kill." Then the next minute we have God telling each man to strap a sword to his side and lay waste to thousands. Wouldn't you expect the almighty ruler of the universe to be slightly more consistent than this? 3,000 dead people is a lot of commandment breaking. Obviously that is a total contradiction. The reason why you find contradictions like that in the Bible is because God is imaginary You say an interesting thing,"demonstrate His power". Obviously, quite a few people got proof of God's existence. Obviously, God has no problem with "demonstrating His power". So why doesn't He prove his existance? Don't say "because we need faith". That's obviously untrue. God has no problem with "demonstrating His power". And besides, they sinned before they had heard about the Ten Commandments. Quote: Lethkhar Simply take a moment to think about the following statement: "Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!" Yes, this is the central message of Christianity. See John 6:53-54 and Mark 16:16. Think about this message. We have a being who, according to the Standard Model of God, embodies love. Yet, if you do not get down on your knees and worship him, you will be physically tortured for all eternity. What sort of love is that? The utter silliness and contradiction of Jesus' core message should make it obvious to you: God is imaginary. That sounds very egocentric. Does God have a low self-esteem or something? Did He create us just so we could worship Him? How is that "selfless", which God Himself claims to be? Quote: It's not that much to ask since He offers us so much (peace, happiness, eternity in paradise, etc). We are not equal with God. We are far below Him. He gives us dominion over things of this world. Dominion? rofl I have an idea, go out on a boat in a storm in Alaska, then tell me we have "dominion over things of this world". Or go take a look in a telescope. The universe is so immense your mind can't even begin to comprehend the enormity of it. You're telling me we have "dominion over" that? You must be insane. Or very arrogant. Humanity is less than an ant, a germ in this world. We're so insignificat and so powerless. We have "dominion over" almost nothing. Quote: He just wants us to know our place (over these earthly things, but under Him). Now God sounds like a bully. "He wants us to know our place.". I mean, come on! You're calling this guy omnibenevolent?
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:02 pm
Excellent question. Did you ask Jesus to appear to you? I never thought to ask Him that when I wasn't a christian and He did anyways. I will have to ask Him what did I do to receive an appearance ( and I know you won't believe me until you see Him) and tell Him that good ol' Lethkar is waiting.
The cover scam from Jesus that says blessed are those who believe without seeing- how does a dead guy benefit from that?
The apostles were cowering in fear in a locked room after Jesus died on the cross. What would make them entertain the idea of making up a fairy tale of Jesus rising to life again at the risk of losing their lives the same way Jesus did or worse? The reports of Jesus' followers gain a certain authority because of their willingness to die for their witness to the resurrection. But who is, or has, ever been willing to die for the sake of a cause which they clearly know to be a lie? Remember, the disciples were eye witnesses to what actually had happened.
Now Jesus obviously had enemies and not just a few pharisees but roman officials as well. Why didn't the opposition speak up and say, ""Hey, wait a minute. This is crazy. Jesus never actually walked on water. He never claimed to be God. He never did these miracles. He never came back from the grave." Such an outcry could have occurred. But it never did. But in this case, the lack of any such uproar against the "falsity" of the Gospel accounts actually becomes a rather convincing piece of evidence. The Jews failed to easily discredit the accounts by producing Jesus’ body.
The testimony of women was regarded as so worthless that they were not even permitted to serve as legal witnesses in a court of law. In light of these facts, how remarkable must it seem that it is women who are the discoverers of Jesus’ empty tomb. Any later legend would certainly have made the male disciples to discover the empty tomb. The fact that women, whose testimony was worthless, rather than men, are the chief witnesses to the empty tomb is, like it or not, they were the discoverers of the empty tomb and the gospels accurately record this.
Ironically, it was pharisees who came to Jesus and demanded proof quite often.
Matthew 12
38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one[e] greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.
Jesus is telling them that His sign to them is His death on the cross and how He will stay dead for only 3 days and 3 nights, but excluded in this verse is His resurrection because He knew their hearts. There is more than an appearance of Jesus that we will need to be saved. It is better to take a good hard honest look at ourselves and recognize the empty hole only He can fill.
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:30 pm
Allythea Excellent question. Did you ask Jesus to appear to you? I never thought to ask Him that when I wasn't a christian and He did anyways. I will have to ask Him what did I do to receive an appearance ( and I know you won't believe me until you see Him) and tell Him that good ol' Lethkar is waiting. The cover scam from Jesus that says blessed are those who believe without seeing- how does a dead guy benefit from that? The apostles were cowering in fear in a locked room after Jesus died on the cross. What would make them entertain the idea of making up a fairy tale of Jesus rising to life again at the risk of losing their lives the same way Jesus did or worse? The reports of Jesus' followers gain a certain authority because of their willingness to die for their witness to the resurrection. But who is, or has, ever been willing to die for the sake of a cause which they clearly know to be a lie? Remember, the disciples were eye witnesses to what actually had happened. Ever heard of Jim Jones and the Kool Aid? Yeah... Quote: Now Jesus obviously had enemies and not just a few pharisees but roman officials as well. Why didn't the opposition speak up and say, ""Hey, wait a minute. This is crazy. Jesus never actually walked on water. He never claimed to be God. He never did these miracles. He never came back from the grave." Such an outcry could have occurred. But it never did. But in this case, the lack of any such uproar against the "falsity" of the Gospel accounts actually becomes a rather convincing piece of evidence. The Jews failed to easily discredit the accounts by producing Jesus’ body. Herod questioned Jesus's power, and Jesus refused to prove it to him. Quote: The testimony of women was regarded as so worthless that they were not even permitted to serve as legal witnesses in a court of law. In light of these facts, how remarkable must it seem that it is women who are the discoverers of Jesus’ empty tomb. Any later legend would certainly have made the male disciples to discover the empty tomb. The fact that women, whose testimony was worthless, rather than men, are the chief witnesses to the empty tomb is, like it or not, they were the discoverers of the empty tomb and the gospels accurately record this. Ironically, it was pharisees who came to Jesus and demanded proof quite often. Matthew 12 38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." 39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one[e] greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. Jesus is telling them that His sign to them is His death on the cross and how He will stay dead for only 3 days and 3 nights, but excluded in this verse is His resurrection because He knew their hearts. There is more than an appearance of Jesus that we will need to be saved. It is better to take a good hard honest look at ourselves and recognize the empty hole only He can fill. What a shame the majority of the world doesn't see it. stare
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:39 am
Lethkhar Allythea Excellent question. Did you ask Jesus to appear to you? I never thought to ask Him that when I wasn't a christian and He did anyways. I will have to ask Him what did I do to receive an appearance ( and I know you won't believe me until you see Him) and tell Him that good ol' Lethkar is waiting. The cover scam from Jesus that says blessed are those who believe without seeing- how does a dead guy benefit from that? The apostles were cowering in fear in a locked room after Jesus died on the cross. What would make them entertain the idea of making up a fairy tale of Jesus rising to life again at the risk of losing their lives the same way Jesus did or worse? The reports of Jesus' followers gain a certain authority because of their willingness to die for their witness to the resurrection. But who is, or has, ever been willing to die for the sake of a cause which they clearly know to be a lie? Remember, the disciples were eye witnesses to what actually had happened. Quote: Ever heard of Jim Jones and the Kool Aid? Yeah... we were not talking about Jesus poisoning His followers Quote: Now Jesus obviously had enemies and not just a few pharisees but roman officials as well. Why didn't the opposition speak up and say, ""Hey, wait a minute. This is crazy. Jesus never actually walked on water. He never claimed to be God. He never did these miracles. He never came back from the grave." Such an outcry could have occurred. But it never did. But in this case, the lack of any such uproar against the "falsity" of the Gospel accounts actually becomes a rather convincing piece of evidence. The Jews failed to easily discredit the accounts by producing Jesus’ body. Quote: Herod questioned Jesus's power, and Jesus refused to prove it to him. Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Quote: The testimony of women was regarded as so worthless that they were not even permitted to serve as legal witnesses in a court of law. In light of these facts, how remarkable must it seem that it is women who are the discoverers of Jesus’ empty tomb. Any later legend would certainly have made the male disciples to discover the empty tomb. The fact that women, whose testimony was worthless, rather than men, are the chief witnesses to the empty tomb is, like it or not, they were the discoverers of the empty tomb and the gospels accurately record this. Ironically, it was pharisees who came to Jesus and demanded proof quite often. Matthew 12 38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." 39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one[e] greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. Jesus is telling them that His sign to them is His death on the cross and how He will stay dead for only 3 days and 3 nights, but excluded in this verse is His resurrection because He knew their hearts. There is more than an appearance of Jesus that we will need to be saved. It is better to take a good hard honest look at ourselves and recognize the empty hole only He can fill. Quote: What a shame the majority of the world doesn't see it. stare God suffered much to become flesh and walk among us. He was all-powerful, but he rarely did anything to protect himself. He humbled Himself for our sake.
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:41 pm
Allythea Lethkhar Allythea Excellent question. Did you ask Jesus to appear to you? I never thought to ask Him that when I wasn't a christian and He did anyways. I will have to ask Him what did I do to receive an appearance ( and I know you won't believe me until you see Him) and tell Him that good ol' Lethkar is waiting. The cover scam from Jesus that says blessed are those who believe without seeing- how does a dead guy benefit from that? The apostles were cowering in fear in a locked room after Jesus died on the cross. What would make them entertain the idea of making up a fairy tale of Jesus rising to life again at the risk of losing their lives the same way Jesus did or worse? The reports of Jesus' followers gain a certain authority because of their willingness to die for their witness to the resurrection. But who is, or has, ever been willing to die for the sake of a cause which they clearly know to be a lie? Remember, the disciples were eye witnesses to what actually had happened. Quote: Ever heard of Jim Jones and the Kool Aid? Yeah... we were not talking about Jesus poisoning His followers No, we're talking about people who were willing to die for their beliefs. The disciples weren't the only crazies. By your argument, Jim Jones was just as credible as Jesus. Quote: Quote: Now Jesus obviously had enemies and not just a few pharisees but roman officials as well. Why didn't the opposition speak up and say, ""Hey, wait a minute. This is crazy. Jesus never actually walked on water. He never claimed to be God. He never did these miracles. He never came back from the grave." Such an outcry could have occurred. But it never did. But in this case, the lack of any such uproar against the "falsity" of the Gospel accounts actually becomes a rather convincing piece of evidence. The Jews failed to easily discredit the accounts by producing Jesus’ body. Quote: Herod questioned Jesus's power, and Jesus refused to prove it to him. Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Precisely. Quote: Quote: The testimony of women was regarded as so worthless that they were not even permitted to serve as legal witnesses in a court of law. In light of these facts, how remarkable must it seem that it is women who are the discoverers of Jesus’ empty tomb. Any later legend would certainly have made the male disciples to discover the empty tomb. The fact that women, whose testimony was worthless, rather than men, are the chief witnesses to the empty tomb is, like it or not, they were the discoverers of the empty tomb and the gospels accurately record this. Ironically, it was pharisees who came to Jesus and demanded proof quite often. Matthew 12 38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." 39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one[e] greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. Jesus is telling them that His sign to them is His death on the cross and how He will stay dead for only 3 days and 3 nights, but excluded in this verse is His resurrection because He knew their hearts. There is more than an appearance of Jesus that we will need to be saved. It is better to take a good hard honest look at ourselves and recognize the empty hole only He can fill. Quote: What a shame the majority of the world doesn't see it. stare God suffered much to become flesh and walk among us. He was all-powerful, but he rarely did anything to protect himself. He humbled Himself for our sake. What on earth does that have to do with the discussion at hand?
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:58 pm
Lethkhar Allythea Lethkhar Allythea Excellent question. Did you ask Jesus to appear to you? I never thought to ask Him that when I wasn't a christian and He did anyways. I will have to ask Him what did I do to receive an appearance ( and I know you won't believe me until you see Him) and tell Him that good ol' Lethkar is waiting. The cover scam from Jesus that says blessed are those who believe without seeing- how does a dead guy benefit from that? The apostles were cowering in fear in a locked room after Jesus died on the cross. What would make them entertain the idea of making up a fairy tale of Jesus rising to life again at the risk of losing their lives the same way Jesus did or worse? The reports of Jesus' followers gain a certain authority because of their willingness to die for their witness to the resurrection. But who is, or has, ever been willing to die for the sake of a cause which they clearly know to be a lie? Remember, the disciples were eye witnesses to what actually had happened. Quote: Ever heard of Jim Jones and the Kool Aid? Yeah... we were not talking about Jesus poisoning His followers Quote: No, we're talking about people who were willing to die for their beliefs. The disciples weren't the only crazies. By your argument, Jim Jones was just as credible as Jesus. Last I checked christianity is not listed as a cult, but a faith and religion. Jesus and His disciples were killed by the officials of the day. Believers who were murdered for their faith were called martyrs. Quote: Quote: Now Jesus obviously had enemies and not just a few pharisees but roman officials as well. Why didn't the opposition speak up and say, ""Hey, wait a minute. This is crazy. Jesus never actually walked on water. He never claimed to be God. He never did these miracles. He never came back from the grave." Such an outcry could have occurred. But it never did. But in this case, the lack of any such uproar against the "falsity" of the Gospel accounts actually becomes a rather convincing piece of evidence. The Jews failed to easily discredit the accounts by producing Jesus’ body. Quote: Herod questioned Jesus's power, and Jesus refused to prove it to him. Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Precisely. Quote: Quote: The testimony of women was regarded as so worthless that they were not even permitted to serve as legal witnesses in a court of law. In light of these facts, how remarkable must it seem that it is women who are the discoverers of Jesus’ empty tomb. Any later legend would certainly have made the male disciples to discover the empty tomb. The fact that women, whose testimony was worthless, rather than men, are the chief witnesses to the empty tomb is, like it or not, they were the discoverers of the empty tomb and the gospels accurately record this. Ironically, it was pharisees who came to Jesus and demanded proof quite often. Matthew 12 38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." 39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one[e] greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. Jesus is telling them that His sign to them is His death on the cross and how He will stay dead for only 3 days and 3 nights, but excluded in this verse is His resurrection because He knew their hearts. There is more than an appearance of Jesus that we will need to be saved. It is better to take a good hard honest look at ourselves and recognize the empty hole only He can fill. Quote: What a shame the majority of the world doesn't see it. stare God suffered much to become flesh and walk among us. He was all-powerful, but he rarely did anything to protect himself. He humbled Himself for our sake. What on earth does that have to do with the discussion at hand?
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