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 Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:14 pm
Dr_Pepper_tgns So what do you mean? that they should repent for being gay sometime and then not be gay after that? or just repent for being gay once and its ok? No, hon. To repent literally means to turn away, to stop, so they would have to turn away from their ways. It is not ok to go back to sinning. That is backsliding.
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:19 pm
NoirCheri Dr_Pepper_tgns So what do you mean? that they should repent for being gay sometime and then not be gay after that? or just repent for being gay once and its ok? No, hon. To repent literally means to turn away, to stop, so they would have to turn away from their ways. It is not ok to go back to sinning. That is backsliding. What if they don't want to stop? What if they believe in god, the are the best citizen, gave to all types of charaties. Always fed his fellow country men when they starved. If he abides by all 10 commandments and never even once thought about doing harm to others, but he was gay and had a partner. Does that make him worthless to "heaven:"? Does his good deeds go unnoticed because he loves and lusts for other males as males would love and lust for women? Of course!
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:45 pm
To Therion_Berserk: Arqueete -We believe the bible and what it says is true, and since it says that homosexuality is wrong we believe that. In general, that is the only reason why we discourage homosexuality. "The more I debate about God the more I learn that debating accomplishes nothing." - Me You can't debate the existance of God because God is above the rules of this world. The only way you can prove God to an unbeliever in a secientific way is to prove that He follows the rules of this world because logic is all (In general) most non-believers will be convinced by in that area. The only way you can convince an unbeliever that God exists is to show and tell what God has done to change your life, and there are many inspirational stories out there, and I have my own though it isn't that amazing it is important to me. But I won't waste space with it unless you'd like to hear it smile As for this: Quote: f.e. it said plants came before humans, but there is another part that says humans came before plants. WELL WHICH IS IT SMARTY PANTS!? Your argument would be more convincing if you could give me a verse in which is says as such, since I'm unaware of where in the bible it says that humans came before plants smile I see your sig, and it seems a bit illogical to me that you feel we descriminate against gays, which I assume you do considering your stand on the issue, when you are descrimitive against Christians. Though it is not my place to judge. Perhaps you could explain why you feel Christianity is so bad that you feel you need to go so far as to be Anti-Christian? I'm curious as to a person's reasons for doing so, I don't meet many people who are so passionately against my faith. Christianity may not have been proved to you, because like I said, the only proof the non-believers unless they've seen it for themselves is scientific. But the grace and existince of God has been proven to any who have humbled themselves enough to ask God for help. Not someone who simply did so to get proof that God exists, but someone who has humbled themselves enough to admit they might be wrong and believe it. And whether that is what starts your faith or strengthens it after you become curious about our faith, it will happen if it is God's will that it does, and then you will see how real God is. I have not met a Christian who has not had such an experience. Trust me. Though I know you won't wink I know of no case myself where a believer's word has cuased someone to suddenly come to faith, maybe encourage them to read the bible, ect. but it is only when they talk to God do most people's doubts begin to fade away. I won't debate God or Homosexuality with you or anyone here any longer, because I did not come to this thread to come debate Homosexuality with non-believers, though I should've known you guys would come to this thread, since so many of non-Christians feel so strongly about the subject of homosexuality, which is understandable. Believe it or not, I was in your exact place just under a year ago 3nodding However, if you'd like to PM me if you have questions about homosexuality, any bible verses, or Christianity in general, and I'll answer to the best of my ability, though I am not as good at discussions as those who know the bible well, like rockmanx, or as many of the people in this thread are, so I can only speak from my experience (Which, as I said, is limited) and my heart smile And I'm afraid my words sometimes end up being more confusing or less convincing, but what's a 13-year-old new to faith supposed to do? wink I try to trust that God will make up for my imperfections.
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:26 pm
chikun NoirCheri Dr_Pepper_tgns So what do you mean? that they should repent for being gay sometime and then not be gay after that? or just repent for being gay once and its ok? No, hon. To repent literally means to turn away, to stop, so they would have to turn away from their ways. It is not ok to go back to sinning. That is backsliding. What if they don't want to stop? What if they believe in god, the are the best citizen, gave to all types of charaties. Always fed his fellow country men when they starved. If he abides by all 10 commandments and never even once thought about doing harm to others, but he was gay and had a partner. Does that make him worthless to "heaven:"? Does his good deeds go unnoticed because he loves and lusts for other males as males would love and lust for women? Of course! That's your Key: Lust. Any lust, be it towards the opposite Sex, or your own even, is sin. And it doesn't matter what sins you do and don't do. Sin is Sin. Put it as simple as that. All Sin, and fall short of the Glory of God.
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:33 pm
chikun What if they don't want to stop? What if they believe in god, the are the best citizen, gave to all types of charaties. Always fed his fellow country men when they starved. If he abides by all 10 commandments and never even once thought about doing harm to others, but he was gay and had a partner. Does that make him worthless to "heaven:"? Does his good deeds go unnoticed because he loves and lusts for other males as males would love and lust for women? Of course! One can be as "good" as he thinks he should be and still not make it into heaven because of disobedience. Homosexuality is willful disobedience to God. It is sin. Yes, in hell he shall open his eyes.
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:47 am
Personally, I have 6 gay friends. All of them go to my church, or have at one time. They know it's wrong, and they get persecuted for it. But I am their only christian friend that doesn't judge them. They get enough from the people around them.
Believe me, I've been hurt. I dated one, he was still 'finding himself' while we dated...and it hurt yes, but the worst was my best guy friend ever, and fellow church member who I was in love with was Gay. But I've never once judged them. I've told them that God says it's wrong...and they know it. But just loving them and knowing that for once they can spend time with a christian without being judged all the time is a testimony in it self about God's love and mercy.
There aren't enough people in the world that can do that for them, try to be one of them. It's a better testiment of God then persecution.
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:26 am
Takai_desu_yo - People like, YOU, are the sole reason for many people becoming, Atheist. Why do I say this? Correct me if I am wrong, but the bible does say, "Do not judge, for you too shall be judged.." yada yada yada, you know it. Well, what you did to that boy responding to this thread, was judging. He was stating HIS opinion, as I will. My question is this.. How can you believe in something/someone that you can't see or feel? Your answer: Faith. My responce to that: Take that faith and jump off a bridge. Do you trust your God to help you, and guide you to saftey? No, I don't think so. I'm tired of the egotistical, so called, "Christian" who takes their beliefs and throws them in other peoples face. You know what? I was a believer in God, untill I was cornered in Church for being, a homosexual. For years after my encounter with the "Church", I still believed in God. I prayed and I did research on the bible. You know what I found? The original word for homosexual, used in the ORIGINAL text of the bible.. Sodomite Do me a favor, so I can teach you something, look that word up.. I'll give you a history of that word. Better yet, here, I'll do a recap.. Quote: Why is this important? A couple of reasons. 1. Ever heard of "Sodomy Laws"? It was illegal in the U.S. to be a sodomite (now people call 'em homosexuals); hence SODOMY laws. In a generation or two, people, including Christians who read the NIV, won't know where the word sodomite came from. 2. This change from sodomite to "shrine prostitute" tells us that homosexuality isn't bad, there are just some homosexuals doing bad things. This sentiment has been expressed by a number of pro-sodomite individuals who claim Christ. They are deciving themselves for the scripture says the effeminate and abusers of themselves with mankind won't inherit the kingdom of heaven. - from SodomiteAnother point for you all: If 'homosexuality' is SO wrong, why is there 2 hinted/known homosexual couples in the bible? Following is from, Same-Sex Relations In The Bible..Quote: The Bible describes three emotionally close relationships between two people of the same gender. They appear to have progressed well beyond a casual friendship. There is, however, no unmistakable evidence that they were sexually active relationships. The individuals are: - Ruth and Naomi - David and Jonathan - Daniel and Ashpenaz I will save you the trouble to going there.. Ruth and Naomi Ruth 1:16-17 and 2:10-11 describe their close friendship Perhaps the best known passage from this book is Ruth 1:16-17 which is often read out during opposite-sex and same-sex marriage and union ceremonies: "Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me." (NIV) Ruth 1:14, referring to the relationship between Ruth and Naomi, mentions that "Ruth clave onto her." (KJV) The Hebrew word translated here as "clave" is identical to that used in the description of a heterosexual marriage in Genesis 2:24: " Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (KJV) This book was probably included in the Hebrew Scriptures because King David was one of the descendents of Ruth. Although this same-sex friendship appears to have been very close, there is no proof that it was a sexually active relationship. David and Jonathan Passages in 1 Samuel & 2 Samuel describe, among other events, a extremely close bond between David and Jonathan. Jonathan was the son of King Saul, and next in line for the throne. But Samuel anointed David to be the next king. This produced a strong conflict in the mind of Saul. Interpretation:+ Religious conservatives generally view the friendship of David and Jonathan as totally non-sexual. It is inconceivable that God would allow a famous king of Israel to be a homosexual. +Some religious beleive that David and Jonathan had a consensual homosexual relationship - in many ways, a prototype of many of today's gay partnerships. 7 Some important verses which describe their relationship are: Quote: ++1 Samuel 18:1 "...Jonathan became one in spirit with David and he loved him as himself." (NIV) "...the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (KJV) Most translations use the term "soul" rather than "spirit" to describe the bond. They speak of an "immediate bond of love", their souls being "in unison," their souls being "knit", etc. Genesis 2:7, as written in the original Hebrew, describes how God blew the spirit into the body of Adam that God had formed from earth, so that Adam became a living soul. This means that "soul", in the ancient Israelite times, represents a combination of body and spirit. Thus the two men appear to have loved each other both physically and emotionally. Quote: ++1 Samuel 18:2 "From that day, Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house." (NIV) David left his parent's home and moved to Saul's where he would be with Jonathan. This is a strong indication that the relationship was extremely close. Quote: ++1 Samuel 18:3-4 "And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." (NIV) Since people in those days did not wear underwear, Jonathan stripped himself naked in front of David. That would be considered extremely unusual behavior (then and now) unless their relationship was physical. Quote: ++1 Samuel 18:20-21 "Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. 'I will give her to him', he thought, 'so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him'. Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law" (NIV) In the King James Version, the end of Verse 21 reads: "Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain." (KJV) Saul's belief was that David would be so distracted by a wife that he would not be an effective fighter and would be killed by the Philistines. He offered first his daughter Merab, but that was rejected, presumably by her. Then he offered Michal. There is an interesting phrase used at the end of verse 21. In both the NIV and KJV, it would seem that David's first opportunity to be a son-in-law was with the older daughter Merab, and his second was with the younger daughter Michal. The KJV preserves the original text in its clearest form; it implies that David would become Saul's son-in-law through "one of the twain." "Twain" means "two", so the verse seems to refer to one of Saul's two daughters. Unfortunately, this is a mistranslation. The underlined phrase "the one of" does not exist in the Hebrew original. The words are shown in italics in the King James Version; this is an admission by the translators that they made the words up. Thus, if the KJV translators had been truly honest, they would have written: "Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the twain." In modern English, this might be written: "Today, you are son-in-law with two of my children" That would refer to both his son Jonathan and his daughter Michal. The Hebrew original would appear to recognize David and Jonathan's homosexual relationship as equivalent to David and Michal's heterosexual marriage. Saul may have approved or disapproved of the same-sex relationship; but at least he appears to have recognized it. The KJV highlight their re-writing of the Hebrew original by placing the three words in italics; the NIV translation is clearly deceptive. Quote: ++1 Samuel 20:41 "After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with is face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together - but David wept the most." (NIV) Other translations have a different ending to the verse: "...and they kissed one another and wept with one another, until David exceeded." (KJV) "...and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David got control of himself." (Amplified Bible) "and they sadly shook hands, tears running down their cheeks until David could weep no more." (Living Bible) "They kissed each other and wept together until David got control of himself." (Modern Language) "They kissed each other and wept aloud together." (New American Bible) "Then David and Jonathan kissed each other. They cried together, but David cried the most." (New Century Version) "Then the kissed one another and shed tears together, until David's grief was even greater than Jonathan's." (Revised English Bible) "...and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David recovered himself." (Revised Standard Version) The translators of the Living Bible apparently could not handle the thought of two adult men kissing, so they mistranslated the passage by saying that the two men shook hands! This is somewhat less than honest. The original Hebrew text says that they kissed each other and wept together until David became great. The word which means "great" in this passage is "gadal" in the original Hebrew. The same word is used elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures to refer to King Solomon being greater than all other kings. Some theologians interpret "gadal" in this verse as indicating that David had an erection. However, the thoughts of David becoming sexually aroused after kissing Jonathan is too threatening for Bible translators, so they either deleted the ending entirely or created one of their own. Quote: ++2 Samuel 1:26 "I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women." In the society of ancient Israel, it was not considered proper for a man and woman to have a platonic relationship. Men and women rarely spoke to each other in public. Since David's only relationships with women would have been sexual in nature, then he must be referring to sexual love here. It would not make sense in this verse to compare platonic love for a man with sexual love for a woman; they are two completely different phenomenon. It would appear that David is referring to his sexual love for Jonathan. Daniel and Ashpenaz Daniel 1:9 refers to Ashpenaz, the chief of the court officials of Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon. Various English translations differ greatly: +"Now God had caused the official to show favor and sympathy to Daniel" (NIV) +"Now God had brought Daniel into favor and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs" (KJV) +"Now God made Daniel to find favor, compassion and loving-kindness with the chief of the eunuchs" (Amplified Bible) +"Now, as it happens, God had given the superintendent a special appreciation for Daniel and sympathy for his predicament" (Living Bible) +"Then God granted Daniel favor and sympathy from the chief of the eunuchs" (Modern Language) +"Though God had given Daniel the favor and sympathy of the chief chamberlain..." (New American Bible) +"God made Ashpenaz want to be kind and merciful to Daniel" (New Century Version) +"And God gave Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the chief of the eunuchs" (Revised Standard Version) +"God caused the master to look on Daniel with kindness and goodwill" (Revised English Version) Interpretation: Religious conservatives generally view the friendship of Daniel and Ashpenaz as totally non-sexual. It is inconceivable that God would allow a famous prophet of Israel to be a homosexual. Some religious liberals detect the possibility of a homosexual relationship here. The Hebrew words which describe the relationship between Daniel and Ashpenaz are chesed v'rachamim The most common translation of chesed is "mercy". V'rachamim is in a plural form which is used to emphasize its relative importance. It has multiple meanings: "mercy" and "physical love". It is unreasonable that the original Hebrew would read that Ashpenaz "showed mercy and mercy." A more reasonable translation would thus be that Ashpenaz showed mercy and engaged in physical love" with Daniel. Of course, this would be unacceptable to later translators, so they substitute more innocuous terms. The KJV reference to "tender love" would appear to be the closest to the truth. One might question whether Daniel and Ashpenaz could sexually consummate their relationship. They were both eunuchs. Apparently, when males are castrated after puberty, they still retain sexual drive. It is interesting to note that no other romantic interest or sexual partner of Daniel was mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. There.. I've said enough.. If you have a comment to say to ME - PM me. I will not return to keep up with this.
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:06 am
reikamada Personally, I have 6 gay friends. All of them go to my church, or have at one time. They know it's wrong, and they get persecuted for it. But I am their only christian friend that doesn't judge them. They get enough from the people around them. Believe me, I've been hurt. I dated one, he was still 'finding himself' while we dated...and it hurt yes, but the worst was my best guy friend ever, and fellow church member who I was in love with was Gay. But I've never once judged them. I've told them that God says it's wrong...and they know it. But just loving them and knowing that for once they can spend time with a christian without being judged all the time is a testimony in it self about God's love and mercy. There aren't enough people in the world that can do that for them, try to be one of them. It's a better testiment of God then persecution. Why is it every time I try to say something someone comes along and says what I'm trying to say in a simpler, more easy to understadn fashion? I said that God would make up for my imperfection and maybe that's how he chooses to do it razz Dante-Kun Quote: Take that faith and jump off a bridge. Do you trust your God to help you, and guide you to saftey? No, I don't think so. Since we don't see too many people moving mountains, I suppose Jesus is saying that our faith isn't so great afterall, expecially if we have to jump off a bridge just to see if God really would save us wink Faithful people have no reason to be jumping off a bridge anyway, they wouldn't be committing suicide, and if they were to go bungee jumping or something like that it wouldn't matter to them if God saved them because they know where they're going if he does not. I'm sure you know, the devil challenged Jesus to do just that basically- Jump, and lets see if God catches you. As for your talking about homosexuals, I actually read the entire post (Which I don't do often with long posts like this, and I said I wasn't going to re-join in this anyway xp ), and it is very interesting indeed. I can't argue with the original hebrew because I know nothing of it (Which is a shame, since, as you proved whether you are right about the homosexual thing or not that the translations can be so different who knows if they twisted the truth or not) though I do know someone who is, and I will send him a PM. I have a question for you, out of my own curiosty: You say that your being persecuted for your homosexuality drove you away from the church, but you still believed in God. What was it that caused you to loose the faith that you still retained?
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:07 am
Sometimes being a lez or a homo is not really your fault sometimes its because, you spend to much time with your father if your a girl *like your mom moved away so you dont see her alot and you spend almost your entire life with your Dad** so you pick up habits from your Dad and vise-versa for guys and sometimes...You can fall into the Devil`s trap and become that way...Thats all I can think of
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:23 am
OK, Dante-kun, you do realize I have never thrown me Beliefs in anybodys face? HE threw HIS beliefs in everybody elses face, IN A CHRISTIAN THREAD! That's like walking into a Church and Spouting off anti Christian Doctrine, and Every reason you hate Christians. You will be recieved just the Same. And, yes, I will PM this to you, the moment it starts working again. I defended my beliefs, and I did so in the most un-offensive way I could. I can't say so much for them. You people come in here, Drop your pain-in-the-a** Anti-Christian Ideals, and take offense the moment we defend. Screw you. I am not the type of Christian to sit back. Insult me all you want, slap me in the face, punch me in the Gut, I will not strike back. But the Moment you insult my God, the Very Being that I worship, He that has Given me life, I will slap you back. I will cause you great pains that you couldn't possibly imagine. Yes, I realize that I am not a perfect Christian, none are. I don't claim to be, that's just the way I am. "For all fall short of the Glory of God." Bite me.
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:53 am
I'm going to lock this page if there is anymore bashing.
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:55 am
Dr_Pepper_tgns Ok, so what your saying is that, if there is a gay guy [lets call him... Kyle] and he comes to know God and believes and all the good stuff, that he will turn straight? *just for clarifycation* if he wants to love his God, yes, he will. because homosexuality is a choice, no matter how much people moan that it is in your genes...
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:32 am
NoirCheri chikun What if they don't want to stop? What if they believe in god, the are the best citizen, gave to all types of charaties. Always fed his fellow country men when they starved. If he abides by all 10 commandments and never even once thought about doing harm to others, but he was gay and had a partner. Does that make him worthless to "heaven:"? Does his good deeds go unnoticed because he loves and lusts for other males as males would love and lust for women? Of course! One can be as "good" as he thinks he should be and still not make it into heaven because of disobedience. Homosexuality is willful disobedience to God. It is sin. Yes, in hell he shall open his eyes. I don't really see the 'disobedience' part, you can't control if your gay or not, just like you happen to be straight, and what about the gay-friendly denominations?
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:03 pm
Japi Dr_Pepper_tgns Ok, so what your saying is that, if there is a gay guy [lets call him... Kyle] and he comes to know God and believes and all the good stuff, that he will turn straight? *just for clarifycation* if he wants to love his God, yes, he will. because homosexuality is a choice, no matter how much people moan that it is in your genes... Ok, it's a choice, can you tell me the moment you decided to be hetero? No you can't because you didn't, It was a natural attraction for you, not a choice, it's just something that happens.
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:08 pm
Dr_Pepper_tgns I don't really see the 'disobedience' part, you can't control if your gay or not, just like you happen to be straight, and what about the gay-friendly denominations? Leviticus 18:22 states "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination [a loathsome act or thing]." Now, this is a direct order that is to be followed. Any male who is with another male or woman who is with another woman is in direct disobedience with this order. Being that this behavior is called an abomination, we can see that homosexuality is something that God loathes (hates).
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