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What are your feelings on Parental Consent Laws for Abortion?
  For them - I think that parents have a right to know that their daughter is getting a medical procedure done.
  Against them - I think that it should be the job of the parents, not the government , to know what is going on in their daughter's life.
  For them - but with exceptions for cases where the parents are abusive.
  Against them - but with strong guildlines that have the clinic encourage the daughter to talk to her parents first.
  Unsure.
  Other
  The Surrealist Option - a closet full of tree branches painted purple.
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Tiger of the Fire

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:39 pm


Actualy Rin. Abortion is four times deadlier then child birth is. Can't really argue your other points ince most of what we both said is opinoin (except the age of consent is diffrent then the age you are no longer a minor. In the US, since I'm not sure about the UK, you are a minor untill the age of 18. YOu can legaly consent to some things at difrrent ages in diffrent states, but your parents still have authoritiy to overule you.) The rates of ten times is founde don the numbers of deaths by abortion compared to deaths by birth. You cant get statistics form numbers, you get them from rates.

Any ways. It took some finding and asking for a bit of help, but I found the article (with mostly nuetral sitation *yay*) about abortion and birth.

Quote:
Abortion Is Four Times Deadlier
Than Childbirth

New Studies Unmask High Maternal Death Rates From Abortion

David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
Abortion advocates, relying on inaccurate maternal death data in the United States, routinely claim that a woman's risk of dying from childbirth is six, ten, or even twelve times higher than the risk of death from abortion.

In contrast, abortion critics have long contended that the statistics relied upon for maternal mortality calculations have been distorted and that the broader claim that "abortion is many times safer than childbirth" completely ignores high rates of other physical and psychological complications associated with abortion. Now a recent, unimpeachable study of pregnancy-associated deaths in Finland has shown that the risk of dying within a year after an abortion is several times higher than the risk of dying after miscarriage or childbirth.(1)

This well-designed record-based study is from STAKES, the statistical analysis unit of Finland's National Research and Development Center for Welfare and Health. In an effort to evaluate the accuracy of maternal death reports, STAKES researchers pulled the death certificate records for all the women of reproductive age (15-49) who died between 1987 and 1994--a total of 9,192 women. They then culled through the national health care data base to identify any pregnancy-related events for each of these women in the 12 months prior to their deaths.

Since Finland has socialized medical care, these records are very accurate and complete. In this fashion, the STAKES researchers identified 281 women who had died within a year of their last pregnancy. The unadjusted mortality rate per 100,000 cases was 27 for women who had given birth, 48 for women who had miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies, and 101 for women who had abortions.

The researchers then calculated the age-adjusted odds ratio of death, using the death rate of women who had not been pregnant as the standard equal to one. Table 1 shows that the age-adjusted odds ratio of women dying in the year they give birth as being half that of women who are not pregnant, whereas women who have abortions are 76 percent more likely to die in the year following abortion compared to non-pregnant women. Compared to women who carry to term, women who abort are 3.5 times more likely to die within a year.

Such figures are always subject to statistical variation from year to year, country to country, study to study. For this reason, the researchers also reported what is known as "95 percent confidence intervals." This means that the available data indicates that 95 percent of all similar studies would report a finding within a specified range around the actual reported figure.

For example, the .50 odds ratio for childbirth has a confidence interval of .32 to .78. In other words, it is probable that 95 percent of the time, the odds ratio of death following childbirth will be found to be between 32 percent and 78 percent of the non-pregnant woman rate. The 95 percent confidence interval for the odds ratio of death following abortion was reported to be 1.27 to 2.42 of the annual rate for non-pregnant women.

Deaths from Suicide

Using a subset of the same data, STAKES researchers had previously reported that the risk of death from suicide within the year of an abortion was more than seven times higher than the risk of suicide within a year of childbirth.(2) Two of these suicides were also connected with infanticide. Examples of post-abortion suicide/infanticide attempts have also been documented in the United States.(3)

The same finding was reported in STAKES' more recent study. Among the 281 women who died within a year of their last pregnancy, 77 (27 percent) had committed suicide. Figure 2 shows the age-adjusted odds ratio for suicide for the three pregnancy groups compared to the "no pregnancy" control group.

Notably, the risk of suicide following a birth was about half that of the general population of women. This finding is consistent with previous studies that have shown that an undisturbed pregnancy actually reduces the risk of suicide.(4)

Abortion, on the other hand, is clearly linked to a dramatic increase in suicide risk. This statistical finding is corroborated by interview-based studies which have consistently shown extraordinarily high levels of suicidal ideation (30-55 percent) and reports of suicide attempts (7-30 percent) among women who have had an abortion.(5) In many of these studies, the women interviewed have explicitly described the abortion as the cause of their suicidal impulses.

The original publication of the STAKES suicide data prompted researchers at the South Glamorgan (population 408,000) Health Authority in Great Britain to examine their own data on admissions for suicide attempts both before and after pregnancy events. They found that among those who aborted, there was a shift from a roughly "normal" suicide attempt rate before the abortion to a significantly higher suicide attempt rate after the abortion. After their pregnancies, there were 8.1 suicide attempts per thousand women among those who had abortions, compared to only 1.9 suicide attempts among those who gave birth. The higher rate of suicide attempts subsequent to abortion was particularly evident among women under 30 years of age.

As in the STAKES sample, birth was associated with a significantly lower risk of suicide attempts. The South Glamorgan researchers concluded that their data did not support the view that suicide after an abortion was predicated on prior poor mental health, at least as measured by prior suicide attempts. Instead, "the increased risk of suicide after an induced abortion may therefore be a consequence of the procedure itself."(6)

Interpretation of these statistical studies is aided by numerous publications describing individual cases of completed suicide following abortion.(7) In many cases, the attempted or completed suicides have been intentionally or subconsciously timed to coincide with the anniversary date of the abortion or the expected due date of the aborted child.( cool Suicide attempts among male partners following abortion have also been reported.(9)

Teens are generally at higher risk for both suicide and abortion. In a survey of teenaged girls, researchers at the University of Minnesota found that the rate of attempted suicide in the six months prior to the study increased ten fold--from 0.4 percent for girls who had not aborted during that time period to 4 percent for teens who had aborted in the previous six months.(10) Other studies also suggest that the risk of suicide after an abortion may be higher for women with a prior history of psychological disturbances or suicidal tendencies.(11)

It is also worth noting the suicide rate among women in China is the highest in the world. Indeed, 56 percent of all female suicides occur in China, mostly among young rural women.(12) It is also the only country where more women die from suicide than men. For women under 45, the suicide rate is twice as high as that of Chinese men. Government officials are reported to be at a loss for an explanation.

Traditionally, Chinese families placed a high value on large families, especially in rural communities. But after the death of Mao Tse-Tung, who also valued large families, China instituted its brutal one child policy. This population control effort, encouraged by governments and family planning organizations from the West, has required the widespread use of abortion--including forced abortion--and infanticide, especially of female babies. Given the known link between abortion and suicide, can there be any doubt that maternally-oriented Chinese women who are coerced by their families and communities to participate in these atrocities are more likely to commit suicide?

Deaths from Risk-Taking Behavior

In this most recent study from Finland, the STAKES researchers also reported that the risk of death from accidents was over four times higher for women who had aborted in the year prior to their deaths than for women who had carried to term. Of the 281 women who died within a year of their last pregnancy, 57 (20 percent) died from injuries attributed to accidents.

Once again, giving birth had a protective effect. Women who had borne children had half the risk of suffering a fatal accident compared to the general population. On the other hand, as shown in Figure 3, women who aborted were more than twice as likely to die from a fatal accidentthan women in the general population.

This finding suggests that women with newborn children are probably more careful to avoid risks which could endanger them or their children. Conversely, women who have had an abortion are apparently more prone to taking risks that could endanger their lives.

This data is consistent with at least two other studies that have found that women who abort are more likely to be treated for accident-related injuries in the year following their abortions.

In a study of government-funded medical programs in Canada, researchers found that women who had undergone an abortion in the previous year were treated for mental disorders 41 percent more often than postpartum women, and 25 percent more often for injuries or conditions resulting from violence.(13)

Similarly, a study of Medicaid payments in Virginia found that women who had state-funded abortions had 62 percent more subsequent mental health claims (resulting in 43 percent higher costs) and 12 percent more claims for treatments related to accidents (resulting in 52 percent higher costs) compared to a case matched sample of women covered by Medicaid who had not had a state-funded abortion.(14)

It is quite likely that some of these deaths which were classified as accidental may have in fact been suicides. Reports of post-abortive women deliberately crashing their automobiles, often in a drunken state, in an attempt to kill themselves have been reported by both post-abortion counselors and in the published literature.(15)

It is also likely that many of these deaths are simply related to heightened risk-taking behavior among post-abortive women. This may occur simply because some women care less whether they live or die after an abortion. Other women may seek to "self-medicate" a sense of depression with the adrenalin rush that often comes with taking risks. In addition, heavier drinking and substance abuse are well-documented aftereffects of abortion, both of which increase a person's risk of fatal accidents.(16)

Deaths from Homicide

The STAKES study also found that 14 (5 percent) of the 281 women were killed by another person. Most of these deaths occurred among women who had undergone an abortion. As shown in Figure 4, the risk of dying from homicide for post-abortive women was more than four times greater than the risk of homicide among the general population. This finding, especially when combined with the suicide and accident figures, once again reinforces the conclusion that women who abort are more likely to engage in risk-taking behavior.

An Elliot Institute survey of 256 post-abortive women found that nearly 60 percent stated that they began to lose their temper more easily after their abortions, with 48 percent saying they also became more violent when angered. Increased tendencies toward anger and violence after abortion were also significantly associated with substance abuse and higher suicidal tendencies.(17) In other words, women who were more prone to anger were also more prone to "giving up" on life. This is a dangerous combination which can more easily lead to fatal confrontations with others.

In the STAKES study, an additional 6 deaths that were due to traumatic physical injuries were listed as "unclear violent deaths." In these cases, the researchers could not make a determination of whether the cause of death was due to accident, suicide, or homicide.

Deaths from Natural Causes

Of the 281 deaths, 127 (45 percent) were attributed to natural causes. As seen in Figure 5, the age adjusted odds ratio of dying from natural causes within a year following any outcome of pregnancy is less than the odds ratio of dying for non-pregnant women.

The obvious implication of this finding is that women who are capable of becoming pregnant are simply healthier and less likely to die of natural causes than women who cannot or do not become pregnant. In other words, women who are most likely to die from a natural physical ailment are less likely to have been pregnant in the last year of their lives.

Comparing abortion to birth, however, we once again see that the risk of death from natural causes was significantly higher (60 percent higher in this sample) for women who had an induced abortion in the prior year compared to those who carried to term or had a natural pregnancy loss.

One possible explanation would be that the women who died after an abortion were already in ill health before the abortions and sought the abortion to protect their health. But this hypothesis was rejected by the STAKES researchers when an examination of abortion registry records showed that only a single woman in this group had her abortion for reasons of maternal health.(1 cool The STAKES data would appear to support the view that induced abortion produces an unnatural physical and psychological stress on women that can result in a negative impact on their general health.

This theory is also supported by a 1984 study that examined the amount of health care sought by women during a year before and a year after their induced abortions. The researchers found that on average, there was an 80 percent increase in the number of doctor visits and a 180 percent increase in doctor visits for psychosocial reasons after abortion.(19)

Ten years later, another study of 1,428 patients chosen at random from their office visits to 69 general practitioners found that pregnancy loss, especially abortion, was significantly associated with a lower assessment of general health.(20) The more pregnancy losses a woman had suffered, the more negative her general health score. In addition, loss of a woman's most recent pregnancy was more strongly associated with lower health than were losses followed by successful deliveries.

While the researchers found that miscarriage was also associated with a lower health score, induced abortion was more strongly associated with a lower health assessment and more frequently identified by women as the cause of their reduced level of health. More than 20 percent of the women participating in the study expressed a moderate to strong need for professional help to resolve their loss.

From this data, Dr. Philip Ney, who led the research team, concluded that acute or pathological grief after the loss of an unborn child, whether by miscarriage or abortion, has a detrimental effect on the psychological and physical health of some women.

Ney proposed several possible reasons for this: (1) depression has been linked to suppressed immune responses, (2) psychological conflict consumes energy that would otherwise be spent in more healthy ways, and (3) prolonged or unresolved mourning may distract the woman from taking care of other health needs or confuse her interpretation of situations and events. In addition to these factors, abortion has been linked to sleeping disorders, eating disorders, and substance abuse, all of which can have a direct negative impact on a woman's health.

Conclusions

The STAKES study of pregnancy-associated deaths is beyond reproach. It is a record-based study in a country with centralized medical records. While a small number of women who died during the period investigated may have had births or abortions outside of Finland which would not have been identified in the records, there is no reason to believe these few cases would have altered these dramatic findings.

Clearly, the odds of a woman dying within a year of having an abortion are significantly higher than for women who carry to term or have a natural miscarriage. This holds true both for deaths from natural causes and deaths from suicide, accidents, or homicide. In addition, the study underscores the difficulty in reliably defining and identifying maternal deaths. Only 22 percent of the death certificates examined had any mention of the woman's recent pregnancy.

Unfortunately, there is often no clear way of determining when there is any causal connection between a death and a previous pregnancy, birth, miscarriage, or abortion. According to the lead author of the STAKES study, Mika Gissler, in maternal health reports throughout the world, "[t]here is no consensus concerning which cases should be included as maternal deaths. Problematic are, for example, some cancers, stroke, asthma, liver cirrhosis, pneumonia with influenza, anorexia nervosa, and many violent deaths, such as suicide, homicide, and accidents."(21)

By stepping back from a predefined notion of what constitutes a pregnancy-related death, the STAKES team has shown that deaths among women following a pregnancy cannot easily be tracked when a study is based purely on short-term post-operative recovery. This is particularly true following an abortion. Maternal deaths after an abortion are seldom identified as such unless the death occurs on the operating table, if even then (see accompanying article on page 5). By examining all death certificates and all pregnancy events in the prior year, the STAKES team avoided the basic problem of pre-defining what deaths will be included or excluded in maternal mortality reports.

Even this study, however, has shortcomings. The most obvious limitation is that the researchers examined only a single year of the reproductive history of women who had died during the study period. Since suicide attempts are often associated with the anniversary date of the abortion, some portion of deaths from suicide or accidents that occurred slightly over one year after a prior abortion were probably missed.

As seen in Figure 6, the distribution of suicides by month following the pregnancy event indicate an increased level of suicides at seven to ten months following an abortion. This may correspond to a negative anniversary reaction related to the expected due date of the aborted child. A similar spike is seen among women who had miscarriages, though it peaks a couple of months earlier, perhaps because the miscarriages generally occurred further along in gestation than the abortions.

Figure 6: Suicide Rate by Month After Pregnancy Event

Another disadvantage of the one-year limit on the STAKES data set is that it does not reveal how long the protective effect of birth extends, or conversely, how long the odds ratio of death for those who abort remains elevated. A study spanning a longer period of time would be needed to identify these longer term effects.

Finally, the STAKES study does not shed any light on whether or not women who died from suicide or risk-taking behavior after an abortion were already self-destructive before their abortions. It is probable that many were. Women with a propensity for risk-taking would be more likely to become pregnant and perhaps more likely to choose abortion. In such cases, while abortion may not be the underlying cause of their problems, it probably contributed to their psychological deterioration and was a contributing cause of their death.

On the other hand, it is also clear from other studies that many women who were not previously self-destructive become so as a direct result of their traumatic abortion experience. Whether this latter group represents a major or minor portion of those who died in the STAKES sample is unknown.

Additional insights could be gained by looking back over several more years of the women's medical records. It is likely that prior suicide attempts, a high incidence of treatment for accidents, prior psychological treatments, and other prior pregnancy losses would all be associated with an increased risk of subsequent death by suicide, homicide, or accident.

Abortion advocates will naturally argue that abortion did not "cause" any of these deaths, but rather that these women were simply self-destructive or ill beforehand and would have died anyway. This is a flimsy argument, since clearly this same data shows that giving birth has a protective effect. Even women who committed suicide after giving birth waited until after their children were born to take their own lives.

It is quite probable that the best way to help a self-destructive woman to change her life, and value her own life, is to encourage her to cherish the life of her unborn child. Conversely, it is clear that aiding and encouraging a self-destructive woman to undergo an abortion is likely to aggravate her self-destructive tendencies.

These findings underscore the importance of holding abortion clinics liable for screening women who are seeking an abortion for a history of suicide, self-destructive behavior, and psychological instability. The failure to screen for these risk factors is clearly gross negligence. In addition, when abortion clinic counselors falsely reassure women that abortion is safer than childbirth, they should be held accountable for false and deceptive business practices.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally printed in The Post-Abortion Review, 8(2), April-June 2000. Copyright 2000, Elliot Institute.
See also:
Informed Consent Booklets Hide True Risks of Abortion
The Cover-Up: Why U.S. Abortion Mortality Statistics Are Meaningless
Two Senseless Deaths: The Long Road to Recovery
Abortionists Are Not Held Accountable for Mistakes
Notes
1. Gissler, M., et. al., "Pregnancy-associated deaths in Finland 1987-1994 -- definition problems and benefits of record linkage," Acta Obsetricia et Gynecolgica Scandinavica 76:651-657 (1997).

2. Mika Gissler, Elina Hemminki, Jouko Lonnqvist, "Suicides after pregnancy in Finland: 1987-94: register linkage study" British Medical Journal 313:1431-4, 1996.

3. McFadden, A., "The Link Between Abortion and Child Abuse," Family Resources Center News (January 199 cool 20.

4. S. J. Drower, & E. S. Nash, "Therapeutic Abortion on Psychiatric Grounds," South African Medical Journal 54:604-608, Oct. 7, 1978; B. Jansson, Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavia 41:87, 1965.

5. David Reardon, "Psychological Reactions Reported After Abortion," The Post-Abortion Review, 2(3):4-8, Fall 1994; Anne C. Speckhard, The Psychological Aspects of Stress Following Abortion (Kansas City: Sheed & Ward, 1987); Vincent Rue, "Traumagenic Aspects of Elective Abortion: Preliminary Findings from an International Study" Healing Visions Conference, June 22, 1996

6. Christopher L. Morgan, et. al., "Mental health may deteriorate as a direct effect of induced abortion," letters section, BMJ 314:902, 22 March, 1997.

7. E. Joanne Angelo, Psychiatric Sequelae of Abortion: The Many Faces of Post-Abortion Grief," Linacre Quarterly 59:69-80, May 1992; David Grimes, "Second-Trimester Abortions in the United States, Family Planning Perspectives 16(6):260; Myre Sim and Robert Neisser, "Post-Abortive Psychoses," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, ed. D. Mall and W.F. Watts, (Washington D.C.: University Publications of America, 1979).

8. Carl Tischler, "Adolescent Suicide Attempts Following Elective Abortion," Pediatrics 68(5):670, 1981.

9. "Psychopathological Effects of Voluntary Termination of Pregnancy on the Father Called Up for Military Service," Psychologie Medicale 14( cool :1187-1189, June 1982; Angelo, op. cit.

10. B. Garfinkle, H. Hoberman, J. Parsons and J. Walker, "Stress, Depression and Suicide: A Study of Adolescents in Minnesota" (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Extension Service, 1986)

11. Esther R. Greenglass, "Therapeutic Abortion and Psychiatric Disturbance in Canadian Women," Canadian Psychiatric Association Journal, 21(7):453-460, 1976; Helen Houston & Lionel Jacobson, "Overdose and Termination of Pregnancy: An Important Association?" British Journal of General Practice, 46:737-738, 1996.

12. Elizabeth Rosenthal, "Women's Suicides Reveal China's Bitter Roots: Nation Starts to Confront World's Highest Rate," The New York Times, Sunday January 24, 1999, p. 1, 8.

13. R.F. Badgley, D.F. Caron, M.G. Powell, Report of the Committee on the Abortion Law, Minister of Supply and Services, Ottawa, 1977:313-319.

14. Jeff Nelson,"Data Request from Delegate Marshall" Interagency Memorandum, Virginia Department of Medical Assistance Services, Mar. 21, 1997.

15. Carl Tischler, "Adolescent Suicide Attempts Following Elective Abortion," Pediatrics 68(5):670, 1981; E. Joanne Angelo, Psychiatric Sequelae of Abortion: The Many Faces of Post-Abortion Grief," Linacre Quarterly 59:69-80, May 1992.

16. D.C. Reardon and P.G. Ney, "Abortion and Subsequent Substance Abuse" Am J Drug Alcohol Abuse 26(1):61-75.

17. David Reardon, "Psychological Reactions Reported After Abortion," The Post-Abortion Review, 2(3):4-8, Fall 1994

18. Personal communication with Mika Gissler, March 8, 2000.

19. D. Berkeley, P.L. Humphreys, and D. Davidson, "Demands Made on General Practice by Women Before and After an Abortion," J. R. Coll. Gen. Pract. 34:310-315, 1984.

20. Philip G. Ney, Tak Fung, Adele Rose Wickett and Carol Beaman-Dodd, "The Effects of Pregnancy Loss on Women's Health," Soc. Sci. Med. 48(9):1193-1200, 1994.

21. Gissler, et.al. (1997) 652.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:02 am


Most of your sources look old to me. The youngest I saw was six years old.

I do have an article that contradicts your claim, though.

Quote:
SAFETY OF ABORTION
The risk of abortion complications is minimal; fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[24]

Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or congenital malformation (birth defect), and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries. [25]

Exhaustive reviews by panels convened by the U.S. and British governments have concluded that there is no association between abortion and breast cancer. There is also no indication that abortion is a risk factor for other types of cancer.[26]

In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women’s mental health.[27]

The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks.[28]

The risk of death associated with childbirth is about 12 times as high as that associated with abortion.[29]

Fifty-eight percent of abortion patients say they would have liked to have had their abortion earlier. Nearly 60% of women who experienced a delay in obtaining an abortion said it was because of the time it took to make arrangements and raise money.[30]

Teens are more likely than older women to delay having an abortion until after 15 weeks of pregnancy, when the medical risks associated with abortion are significantly higher.[31]

Sources
1. Finer LB et al., Disparities in unintended pregnancy in the United States, 1994 and 2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2006, 38(2):90–96.

2. Finer LB and Henshaw SK, Estimates of U.S. abortion incidence in 2001 and 2002, The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), 2005, , accessed May 17, 2005.

3. Ibid.

4. Jones RK, Darroch JE and Henshaw SK, Patterns in the socioeconomic characteristics of women obtaining abortions in 2000–2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2002, 34(5):226–235.

5. Henshaw SK, Unintended pregnancy in the United States, Family Planning Perspectives, 1998, 30(1):24–29 & 46; and AGI, State facts about abortion: Texas, , accessed Feb. 16, 2006.

6. Jones RK, Darroch JE and Henshaw SK, 2002, op. cit. (see reference 4).

7. Ibid.

8. Ibid.

9. Ibid.

10. Ibid.

11. Ibid.

12. Finer LB et al., Reasons U.S. women have abortions: quantitative and qualitative perspectives, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2005, 37(3):110–118.

13. Jones RK, Darroch JE and Henshaw SK, Contraceptive use among U.S. women having abortions in 2000–2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2002, 34(6):294–303.

14. Ibid.

15. Ibid.

16. Finer LB et al., 2006, op. cit. (see reference 1).

17. Ibid.; and Mosher WD et al., Use of contraception and use of family planning services in the United States: 1982–2002, Advance Data from Vital and Health Statistics, 2004, No. 350, pp. 1 and 21.

18. Finer LB and Henshaw SK, Abortion incidence and services in the United States in 2000, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2003, 35(1):6–15.

19. Henshaw SK and Finer LB, The accessibility of abortion services in the United States, 2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2003, 35(1):16–24.

20. Ibid.

21. Ibid.

22. Ibid.

23. Boonstra H et al., Abortion in Women’s Lives, New York: Guttmacher Institute, 2006.

24. Henshaw SK, Unintended pregnancy and abortion: a public health perspective, in: Paul M et al., eds., A Clinician’s Guide to Medical and Surgical Abortion, New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1999, pp. 11–22.

25. Boonstra H et al., 2006, op. cit. (see reference 23).

26. Ibid.

27. Ibid.

28. Bartlett LA et al., Risk factors for legal induced abortion-related mortality in the United States, 2004, Obstetrics and Gynecology, 103(4):729–737.

29. Grimes DA, Estimation of prgnancy-related mortality risk by pregnancy outcome, United States, 1991 to 1999, American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology, 2006, 194(1):92–94.

30. Finer LB et al., Timing of steps and reasons for delays in obtaining abortions in the United States, Contraception, 2006 (forthcoming).

31. Strauss LT et al., Abortion surveillance—United States, 2002, Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report Surveillance Summaries, 2005, 54(SS-7), p. 30, Table 16.

32. Guttmacher Institute, Parental involvement, State Policies in Brief, April 2006, , accessed Apr. 28, 2006.

33.Henshaw SK and Kost K, Parental involvement in minors' abortion decisions, Family Planning Perspectives, 1992, 24(5):196–207 & 213.

34. Guttmacher Institute, State funding of abortion under Medicaid, State Policies in Brief, April 2006, , accessed Apr. 28, 2006.

35. Henshaw SK and Finer LB, 2003, op. cit. (see reference 19).

36. AGI, Fulfilling the Promise: Public Funding and U.S. Family Planning Clinics, New York: AGI, 2000.


I only quoted the bit that was relevant, but the article is recent.

UK law is that you're a minor until you're 18. You can have sex at 16 but there's few restrictions on who with - while 16 and 36 may be frowned upon it's not illegal. The only time a young person cannot have sex with an older one is if it's m/f incest or if the older person holds a position of authority (ie teacher, doctor etc).

Fran Salaska


Decrepit Faith
Crew

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:42 am


WatersMoon110
Rinaqa
Also, UK law is that once you're sixteen, sex is legal. No ifs, ands or buts. At least, that's the way I understand it. I don't think there's anything prohibiting 18+ from sex with 16+. As long as it's not teacher-student or anything. People in positions of authority.

You know, that actually makes more sense than how they do it in the US, at least to me. Someone who is 16 is old enough to choose if they want to have sex, in my opinion.

In Canada the age of consent is 14. XD

We can start young!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:51 am


Rinaqa you're missing one key factor in this arguement. You've said why you think it should be legal in your case (or rather why you want it to be legal personally) however you haven't given any legal reasons for it to remain legal.

"I wouldn't want to tell my parents" just doesn't quite cut it in court or in parliment.

The fact of the matter is, legally a parent has to give consent to a minor with every other surgery. They even need consent to get their ears pierced. Why should abortion be treated any differently? Even if you don't agree with a parent needing to consent to surgery, the fact of the matter is that they do, so why when they do, should the law be different for this one instance?

Decrepit Faith
Crew

6,100 Points
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Tiger of the Fire

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:10 am


Quote:
The risk of death associated with childbirth is about 12 times as high as that associated with abortion.[29]

29. Grimes DA, Estimation of prgnancy-related mortality risk by pregnancy outcome, United States, 1991 to 1999, American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology, 2006, 194(1):92–94.


COuld you expand on this at all? The paper I submitted provided a claim, figures, data to back it all up, as well as a source. Your papaer only provided a claim and a source.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:47 am


Beware the Jabberwock
Rinaqa you're missing one key factor in this arguement. You've said why you think it should be legal in your case (or rather why you want it to be legal personally) however you haven't given any legal reasons for it to remain legal.

"I wouldn't want to tell my parents" just doesn't quite cut it in court or in parliment.

The fact of the matter is, legally a parent has to give consent to a minor with every other surgery. They even need consent to get their ears pierced. Why should abortion be treated any differently? Even if you don't agree with a parent needing to consent to surgery, the fact of the matter is that they do, so why when they do, should the law be different for this one instance?


Abortion does not involve the same things as other surgeries. She doesn't need her parents' permission to remain pregnant, why should she need it to terminate the pregnancy? At least, that's the way I see it.

Fran Salaska


Fran Salaska

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:51 am


Tiger of the Fire
Quote:
The risk of death associated with childbirth is about 12 times as high as that associated with abortion.[29]

29. Grimes DA, Estimation of prgnancy-related mortality risk by pregnancy outcome, United States, 1991 to 1999, American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology, 2006, 194(1):92–94.


COuld you expand on this at all? The paper I submitted provided a claim, figures, data to back it all up, as well as a source. Your papaer only provided a claim and a source.


I'm looking for more, but the figures and data that you say back up the claim come from the source.

Your articles are all at least six years old and further studies have been done since then. Could you find some sources from the last couple of years that further evidence what you say?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:04 pm


In some ways it is good.
In my country a 12 year old can get an abortion without consent. The age for consentual sex is 16. Obviously 12 is a lower number than 16. Am I the only one in this country who can count?
A really hope that the person doing the abortion at least calls the authorities becouse either I'm drunk, or there is something seriously wrong with a pregnant 12 year old.
I don't know. Maybe the kid was raped. Parents: must know about that!
Perhaps her sex education failed Parents: 12 is old enough! Don't wait till she's 20 to tell her about the birds and the bees!
Maybe she's a prostitute Parents: ... stare I'm going to slap you. I don't know what it is, but you failed at something there stare (Yes, there really are 12 year old prostitutes here. I hate this country. Is there still room up there in the US?)
Those are the only good reasons I could come up with sweatdrop

BimboZombie

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lymelady
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:10 am


Rinaqa
Beware the Jabberwock
Rinaqa you're missing one key factor in this arguement. You've said why you think it should be legal in your case (or rather why you want it to be legal personally) however you haven't given any legal reasons for it to remain legal.

"I wouldn't want to tell my parents" just doesn't quite cut it in court or in parliment.

The fact of the matter is, legally a parent has to give consent to a minor with every other surgery. They even need consent to get their ears pierced. Why should abortion be treated any differently? Even if you don't agree with a parent needing to consent to surgery, the fact of the matter is that they do, so why when they do, should the law be different for this one instance?


Abortion does not involve the same things as other surgeries. She doesn't need her parents' permission to remain pregnant, why should she need it to terminate the pregnancy? At least, that's the way I see it.
As much as I don't want to get into this...

She also doesn't need her parent's permission to keep a headache or remain in pain from a wisdom tooth that needs to cmoe out. Why should she need permission to get rid of those things?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:25 am


lymelady
Rinaqa
Abortion does not involve the same things as other surgeries. She doesn't need her parents' permission to remain pregnant, why should she need it to terminate the pregnancy? At least, that's the way I see it.
As much as I don't want to get into this...

She also doesn't need her parent's permission to keep a headache or remain in pain from a wisdom tooth that needs to cmoe out. Why should she need permission to get rid of those things?

Headache? Can't you take over the counter pain pills without parental permission?

Anyway, doesn't one need permission to remain pregnant, sort of? I think that parents can coerce one to get an abortion or just demand that she either abort or move out.

Really, I would hope that most parents would support their pregnant daughter, and her choice. I know that isn't always the case, but I wonder how many teens were scared to tell their parents but would actually have gotten some needed support from them...

WatersMoon110
Crew


Tiger of the Fire

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:46 am


No, they can't. If the child is under 18, it is considered a form of child abuse to force her to move out if all she did was get pregnant, and is considered all around abuse pllus child abuse if it is found she was coerced into it by her prents
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:37 pm


WatersMoon110
lymelady
Rinaqa
Abortion does not involve the same things as other surgeries. She doesn't need her parents' permission to remain pregnant, why should she need it to terminate the pregnancy? At least, that's the way I see it.
As much as I don't want to get into this...

She also doesn't need her parent's permission to keep a headache or remain in pain from a wisdom tooth that needs to cmoe out. Why should she need permission to get rid of those things?

Headache? Can't you take over the counter pain pills without parental permission?

Anyway, doesn't one need permission to remain pregnant, sort of? I think that parents can coerce one to get an abortion or just demand that she either abort or move out.

Really, I would hope that most parents would support their pregnant daughter, and her choice. I know that isn't always the case, but I wonder how many teens were scared to tell their parents but would actually have gotten some needed support from them...
No. Kids aren't allowed to take OTC headache pills without parental consent. It's one of the things schools ask for in those forms they send home every year, consent to give your kids tylenol or something as needed. Especially now that they're finding that aspirin can give kids Reye's syndrome.

Parents do things like that a lot, but they legally can't force her to abort unless she's really young.

The point is, parental consent of all of this stuff is done to protect kids, not from themselves, but from health hazards. Parents usually know the medical record better than their children do. They're also better capable of researching and deciding on a doctor with a good record, whereas kids are more likely to go, cheapest one there is. If a girl's parents are abusive to the point where she can't tell them she's pregnant, then she shouldn't be in that home anyway, and it's completely unhealthy to say, "Oh, your parents will hurt you, let's get you an abortion and then send you back to them as if nothing happened." There should be measures to protect children from abuse, absolutely, but if these measures are taken, they should NOT stop at just getting a girl an abortion. When people are being abused, they should get help, not have people who are supposed to look out for them turn the other way and let it keep going.

lymelady
Vice Captain


lymelady
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:00 am


Aiko_Kaida
WatersMoon110
Rinaqa
Also, UK law is that once you're sixteen, sex is legal. No ifs, ands or buts. At least, that's the way I understand it. I don't think there's anything prohibiting 18+ from sex with 16+. As long as it's not teacher-student or anything. People in positions of authority.

You know, that actually makes more sense than how they do it in the US, at least to me. Someone who is 16 is old enough to choose if they want to have sex, in my opinion.


That is how they do it in parts of the US. My state (Idaho) the age of consent is 16/18. It's 16 if the other person is no more than 5 years older, 18 if the person is more than five years older. At least thats the way the laws end up working out. I like the way that works out. I think 16 is usally old enough to give informed consent unless the other partner is an older adult who is using their maturity to manipulate the teen.
How are they supposed to know how old the partner is though?

I mean...back when I was younger, if I'd done something like that, I'd say he was my ride to the clinic and the guy who got me pregnant was Brad from American Lit.

There are cases where girls even younger than 16 get taken in by older men who turn out to be sexually exploiting the girls and covering it up by having her go to the clinic, and the parents don't know until much later.

That's another reason the parental consent laws are in place.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:55 pm


STAND UP!

NOW SIT DOWN!

STAND UP!

NOW SIT DOWN!

My govt. teacher did this exercise today with the class. it was for an economic isses, but it will work perfectly for this issue as well.

What if everytime I said stand up or sit down, you had to obey me, no matter what, even if you had broken legs?
Wouldn't like that very much know will you?
In my opnion, if you have the ability to say NO to that comand and not obey when someone tells you to 'stand up' and you have the ability to have sex, make the choice to have sex, be able to become pregnant and have it affect your health and future, then you should be able to decided whats best for you.

Otherwise you always rise and lie when others tell you to.

(Don't give me the whole, but they're not citizens! they're minors!,
Excuse me, but we're mammals, a set universial age for voting etc means nothing to our physical or mental maturity, our personal decisions or health.)

Trite~Elegy


lymelady
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:27 am


Trite~Elegy
STAND UP!

NOW SIT DOWN!

STAND UP!

NOW SIT DOWN!

My govt. teacher did this exercise today with the class. it was for an economic isses, but it will work perfectly for this issue as well.

What if everytime I said stand up or sit down, you had to obey me, no matter what, even if you had broken legs?
Wouldn't like that very much know will you?
In my opnion, if you have the ability to say NO to that comand and not obey when someone tells you to 'stand up' and you have the ability to have sex, make the choice to have sex, be able to become pregnant and have it affect your health and future, then you should be able to decided whats best for you.

Otherwise you always rise and lie when others tell you to.

(Don't give me the whole, but they're not citizens! they're minors!,
Excuse me, but we're mammals, a set universial age for voting etc means nothing to our physical or mental maturity, our personal decisions or health.)
Do you agree then with minors being able to make other decisions about their health, like taking certain drugs or surgical procedures, without parental consent or even without requiring the parents to know this is going on, or do you only agree when it involves sticking something up a woman's v****a? Do you believe that most teenage girls in this situation can afford to go to good doctors and know what to look for in choosing a doctor, or do you think it would be wise to at least make sure there is an adult without connection to any clinic that can help a girl choose where to go for the procedure?
Reply
Pro-Life/Pro-Choice Discussion

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