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there is no way to do a poll on abortion because there are too many view points to consider is something so important.
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Total Votes : 17


XXXDELETEDXXXGONEXXX

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:25 pm


God says that babies are conceived seven days before ever being conceived in the womb.
A girl supporting Pro choice was asked what if she had been aborted. She said she wouldn't be here. He asked why and she said, without missing a beat, because she'd be dead. Babies are alive in the womb. There is scienticfic proof. I know there is also proof against that, but I think scientists should make up their minds about things first before they let stuff out and then change their minds.

Someone mentioned about rape, right? Ever hear the phrase "we're all dealt our lumps of coal. What we do with that can turn beautiful."
Bad things happen, so make lemonade or whatever. It's hard. It's a struggle and it can be humiliating. If you can't take care of a baby, what about those couples that can't have a baby?

Also realize, most people get pregnant because of refusing to be abstinent. Not have sex. If you think it is humiliating to have a baby because you had sex out of marriage, well, we reap what we sow. Harsh? Not for people who have sex by will.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:53 pm


The fetus might live and it would die and we were guilty of murder, but what makes life so valueable in the first place? Tht God created us? Are you still as sympathetic with criminals at the death row waiting to be executed? What if we could use modern technology to determine wether a fetus might become disabled, criminal, gay or something> Would it then be justified to kill it?

chocfudge
Crew


SyphaBelnades

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:55 pm


Kalorn
SyphaBelnades
Kalorn
SyphaBelnades
I think that there should be a line to define where life begins. However, I don't have the expertise to say where that line belongs. It seems logical that it would be where the brain is complete, but I can't say for sure.
the brain is not complete even after birth. but it's there after the first trimester.

Really? Someone had told me something else, once. I guess my idea doesn't really make much sense then.
my brother thinks that the only true evil is the causing of pain (physical or emotional) and so to the best of our knowledge, no emotional or physical pain is cause without a neuro-active brain, and a brain that sends and receives action potentials is formed by the end of the first trimester. so he feels that anyone should be able to abort a fetus until then. before that it is a lump of cells.

PS, in case it hasn't been made very obvious already, i have extensive biological/physiological education, so if i ever use a word that someone doesn't understand, please please please feel free to ask what something means. i promise you i will not think anyone is stupid for not knowing. there are still plenty of words and terms and concepts that i don't know either. i have been so emerged that i forget how to speak English sometimes.
Your saying that the ability to feel pain should be the line? That seems pretty logical to me. I have a question, though. I'm not very familiar with the Hippocratic Oath, but is abortion allowed by it? Sorry if this is a silly question, I'm just curious.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:12 pm


Mercution
God says that babies are conceived seven days before ever being conceived in the womb.
A girl supporting Pro choice was asked what if she had been aborted. She said she wouldn't be here. He asked why and she said, without missing a beat, because she'd be dead. Babies are alive in the womb. There is scienticfic proof. I know there is also proof against that, but I think scientists should make up their minds about things first before they let stuff out and then change their minds.

Someone mentioned about rape, right? Ever hear the phrase "we're all dealt our lumps of coal. What we do with that can turn beautiful."
Bad things happen, so make lemonade or whatever. It's hard. It's a struggle and it can be humiliating. If you can't take care of a baby, what about those couples that can't have a baby?

Also realize, most people get pregnant because of refusing to be abstinent. Not have sex. If you think it is humiliating to have a baby because you had sex out of marriage, well, we reap what we sow. Harsh? Not for people who have sex by will.

So, are you for or against the usage of contraceptives?

As for the answer "I'd be dead," it is simply a way for us to compare us not being here.

chaoticpuppet
Crew


Foetus In Fetu

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:06 pm


I support abortion and a woman's right to choose because I believe that her rights are more important than the rights of the embryo. I don't think that women, specifically, should be 'punished' for having sex by being forced to relinquish control over their bodies (and think about what this means: your body is your most personal possession; when you are pregnant and you do not want to be, if you are forced to remain pregnant against your will then you lose control over your body, the body you personally have to live in for the next nine months. I don't support doing that to people.), particularly when nobody seems to see fit to 'punish' men for engaging in the same act. Abortion is not about not wanting children, it's about not wanting to be pregnant. Parenting and pregnancy are two seperate issues.

I don't believe that the embryo is 'nothing', that it has no rights or that it is necessarily worthless, I just happen to think that the woman whose body it inhabits is more important.

ScarredImage
I know that not many people do that but it is possible to transfer the fertilized egg to someone else up til a certian point. Sadly this is very rare.

I doubt many people would accept someone else's fertilised egg into their womb. There are some who would, but many of those who oppose abortion would hesitate to put their wombs where their mouths are.

chaoticpuppet
As for the answer "I'd be dead," it is simply a way for us to compare us not being here.

Hah. What if my Mum had a headache that night? I wouldn't be alive now!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:46 pm


chaoticpuppet
Mercution
God says that babies are conceived seven days before ever being conceived in the womb.
A girl supporting Pro choice was asked what if she had been aborted. She said she wouldn't be here. He asked why and she said, without missing a beat, because she'd be dead. Babies are alive in the womb. There is scienticfic proof. I know there is also proof against that, but I think scientists should make up their minds about things first before they let stuff out and then change their minds.

Someone mentioned about rape, right? Ever hear the phrase "we're all dealt our lumps of coal. What we do with that can turn beautiful."
Bad things happen, so make lemonade or whatever. It's hard. It's a struggle and it can be humiliating. If you can't take care of a baby, what about those couples that can't have a baby?

Also realize, most people get pregnant because of refusing to be abstinent. Not have sex. If you think it is humiliating to have a baby because you had sex out of marriage, well, we reap what we sow. Harsh? Not for people who have sex by will.

So, are you for or against the usage of contraceptives?


I am for the use of contraceptives, if they are used before sex. If a person is married they should be able to have sex all they want, but some people may be too destiture for a child or in a bad place for one, like in college.

As for the answer "I'd be dead," it is simply a way for us to compare us not being here.

XXXDELETEDXXXGONEXXX


XXXDELETEDXXXGONEXXX

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:51 pm


Foetus In Fetu
I support abortion and a woman's right to choose because I believe that her rights are more important than the rights of the embryo. I don't think that women, specifically, should be 'punished' for having sex by being forced to relinquish control over their bodies (and think about what this means: your body is your most personal possession; when you are pregnant and you do not want to be, if you are forced to remain pregnant against your will then you lose control over your body, the body you personally have to live in for the next nine months. I don't support doing that to people.), particularly when nobody seems to see fit to 'punish' men for engaging in the same act. Abortion is not about not wanting children, it's about not wanting to be pregnant. Parenting and pregnancy are two seperate issues.

I don't believe that the embryo is 'nothing', that it has no rights or that it is necessarily worthless, I just happen to think that the woman whose body it inhabits is more important.

ScarredImage
I know that not many people do that but it is possible to transfer the fertilized egg to someone else up til a certian point. Sadly this is very rare.

I doubt many people would accept someone else's fertilised egg into their womb. There are some who would, but many of those who oppose abortion would hesitate to put their wombs where their mouths are.

chaoticpuppet
As for the answer "I'd be dead," it is simply a way for us to compare us not being here.

Hah. What if my Mum had a headache that night? I wouldn't be alive now!


Want huh? As for the answer "I'd be dead" she wouldn't be alive as a opposed to what. If something has a chance at life and you take it away, why is that not murder.

Say your kid has sex and get pregnant. You tell them to get an abortion. The other grandparent wants the baby. To them, all you are doing is killing their grandchild.

Bottom line. You don't want a kid don't have sex or use birth control. If you're raped, use the coal you were given and make a diamond.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:26 am


Mercution
Say your kid has sex and get pregnant. You tell them to get an abortion. The other grandparent wants the baby. To them, all you are doing is killing their grandchild.

I wouldn't tell anybody to have an abortion. I would allow them their own choice; if I told them to have an abortion I'd be as bad as you.

Mercution
You don't want a kid don't have sex or use birth control.

Birth control fails.

Mercution
If you're raped, use the coal you were given and make a diamond.

Have some empathy and compassion, please.

Rape is a horrific, traumatising event. To have your bodily integrity violated sexually can change who you are forever, it can change your life forever. Women who have been raped often have flashbacks to the event, have nightmares, suffer with depression or post-traumatic stress syndrome. Forcing someone to continue with a pregnancy they don't want to continue, further violating their bodily integrity, is likely to add to the trauma they have already lived through.

To brush it off, as someone who has probably had no direct experience of rape or its effects, as "taking coal and making a diamond" is so lacking in compassion.

Like I said, I'm pro-choice because I put the health and well-being of the already born, inarguably posessed of personhood, woman above the health and well-being of the zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus living off her.

Foetus In Fetu


XXXDELETEDXXXGONEXXX

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:34 pm


Foetus In Fetu
Mercution
Say your kid has sex and get pregnant. You tell them to get an abortion. The other grandparent wants the baby. To them, all you are doing is killing their grandchild.

I wouldn't tell anybody to have an abortion. I would allow them their own choice; if I told them to have an abortion I'd be as bad as you.

Mercution
You don't want a kid don't have sex or use birth control.

Birth control fails.

Mercution
If you're raped, use the coal you were given and make a diamond.

Have some empathy and compassion, please.

Rape is a horrific, traumatising event. To have your bodily integrity violated sexually can change who you are forever, it can change your life forever. Women who have been raped often have flashbacks to the event, have nightmares, suffer with depression or post-traumatic stress syndrome. Forcing someone to continue with a pregnancy they don't want to continue, further violating their bodily integrity, is likely to add to the trauma they have already lived through.

To brush it off, as someone who has probably had no direct experience of rape or its effects, as "taking coal and making a diamond" is so lacking in compassion.

Like I said, I'm pro-choice because I put the health and well-being of the already born, inarguably posessed of personhood, woman above the health and well-being of the zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus living off her.


You'd be as bad as me? As bad as someone who wants to give every baby the chance to live? Something that cannot change it's parents or what happened to make it be born? I sure am a horrible persos. By the way, thanks for making that sound much more incredibly rude than it had too..

Birthcontrol fails. Do you know how many couples that can't have babies and would absolutely love to have your baby, especially if you can't take care of it? In the Bible, children who are adopted are to be given all the rights of the firstborn. Adoption was made for a reason.

Don't lecture me about rape. I'd cut the balls off every person I knew was a rapist just because killing is a sin. Off goes the balls of my Uncle Mike who raped my cousin for years and years before she got up the courage to tell people what he was doing.
But, you know what? s**t happens. If your raped make it better than what it turns out to be. That doesn't mean tell everyone how great getting raped is. That means that when that baby is born, raise it up as best you can. Raise someone who is better than that SOB that was their father. You want revenge? Raising a diamond is the best thing you can do. If you can't take care of a baby that comes from a rape, again adoption.
Adoption is cruel becaus eso many people don't adopt and kids don't get parents. If people would stop treating sex like a casual past time to do with any of their friends, we probably wouldn't have such a problem.
More concerned with the mother than the baby? Abortion can be emotionally damaging to the mother whether she gets the abortion by choice or not. Not to mention the serious health risk that it is. By the way, saying how little you care for a fetus, a seed that could grow into a great tree and last forever, someone who could bring you joy until the moment you die, it comes off as an incredibly selfish statement. Just don't get abortions. If you don't want a baby, put it up for adoption, but at least give your baby what it deserves a chance at life, something that you were given as well.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:41 pm


yeah, if you dont want kids, dont have sex. but i still think abortion should be there in case of rape. if the pregnancy from the rape is going to cause a lot of problems with your life, it might be better of dead.

Ninth Pariah


XXXDELETEDXXXGONEXXX

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:04 pm


Schildkrote
yeah, if you dont want kids, dont have sex. but i still think abortion should be there in case of rape. if the pregnancy from the rape is going to cause a lot of problems with your life, it might be better of dead.


Nope. Still need to go with Adoption.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:05 am


Mercution
You'd be as bad as me? As bad as someone who wants to give every baby the chance to live? Something that cannot change it's parents or what happened to make it be born? I sure am a horrible persos.

I never said that you were a horrible person, but you are looking at the issue from a different perspective to me. To me, bodily integrity and being allowed to make decisions for yourself, being the only person who knows your own situation, is paramount and forcing or telling a woman to have an abortion is no different from that perspective as forcing or telling her to carry on with a pregnancy. I don't make decisions for other people.

Mercution
Do you know how many couples that can't have babies and would absolutely love to have your baby, especially if you can't take care of it? In the Bible, children who are adopted are to be given all the rights of the firstborn. Adoption was made for a reason.

My baby? I am not pregnant nor am I likely to become so in the near future, besides which, you don't even know whether or not I would abort a pregnancy, so please don't personalise the issue.

The adoption system has a lot of problems. The first problem is that there are already thousands, if not millions, of unwanted children sitting in the adoption system. What's wrong with them? They're too old or they aren't white or they have a disability. I would hate to put a baby into a system where it might deprive another child of a loving home or a system where it would grow up without parents and be left with no security at the age of eighteen. Choosing whether or not to have your child adopted can be agonising.

Before we get to adoption, though, a woman has to go through nine months of pregnancy; even wanted pregnancies can be trying. Forcing women to gestate unwanted pregnancies can be physically and mentally grueling, not to mention the ramifications it might have for her socially, economically and with respect to education. Only the woman herself should be allowed to decide whether it's worth it, especially if she plans to adopt the eventual baby out.

Which brings me to a point about semantics: 'baby' is an emotionally charged term. Most people do not think of a blastocyst, embryo or fetus when they hear the word 'baby', so please don't use it. It leads people to inaccurate conclusions regarding the stage of development the "Z/E/F" is in.

Mercution
But, you know what? s**t happens. If your raped make it better than what it turns out to be. That doesn't mean tell everyone how great getting raped is. That means that when that baby is born, raise it up as best you can. Raise someone who is better than that SOB that was their father. You want revenge? Raising a diamond is the best thing you can do. If you can't take care of a baby that comes from a rape, again adoption.

I don't do revenge, and I do not believe that aborting a rapist's 'baby' is any way of getting revenge on him. When a woman is raped she is made entirely helpless; being given the choice over whether or not she will keep the pregnancy and whether or not she will keep the resultant child empowers her, but forcing her to do what you think is best takes that power away from her, rendering her helpless again. Moreover, taking that choice away from women in general implies that they are incapable of making decisions of such gravity and must have them made for them.

Mercution
More concerned with the mother than the baby? Abortion can be emotionally damaging to the mother whether she gets the abortion by choice or not.

As emotionally damaging as forcing her to gestate against her will? -- to see her body changing, to feel her body changing, and to have to live with that for nine months?

Have you ever been to imnotsorry.net? Most women do not regret their abortions.

Mercution
Not to mention the serious health risk that it is.

More women die from pregnancy-related illness or childbirth than from abortion.

Mercution
By the way, saying how little you care for a fetus, a seed that could grow into a great tree and last forever, someone who could bring you joy until the moment you die, it comes off as an incredibly selfish statement. Just don't get abortions. If you don't want a baby, put it up for adoption, but at least give your baby what it deserves a chance at life, something that you were given as well.

I never said that I didn't care for fetuses. I just care more about people who are already "great trees", people who are already bringing other people joy.

And yes, my mother gave me a chance at life, and she gave it freely. A mandatory gift is not a gift.

Foetus In Fetu


chaoticpuppet
Crew

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:54 pm


Foetus In Fetu
Hah. What if my Mum had a headache that night? I wouldn't be alive now!

Well, if that where the case, I would say "Sucks for you."

Mercution
Want huh? As for the answer "I'd be dead" she wouldn't be alive as a opposed to what. If something has a chance at life and you take it away, why is that not murder.

First of all, abortion is not unlawful. Murder is unlawful.
Secondly, with abortion, there is no malicious intent. Murder must have malicious intent (or implied malicious intent).

Since murder must be unlawful and be committed with, or with implied, malicious intent, and abortion has neither of those qualities it is a resounding no for abortion to be murder.

Because of the conjunction in the definition of murder, and because of the fact that the conjunction means it must exhibit both qualities, not just one or the other, abortion must not be murder, as it exhibits not one of the two qualities that must be exhibited to be considered to be murder.

Abortion is homicide, but it is not either murder or manslaughter.

Quote:
Say your kid has sex and get pregnant. You tell them to get an abortion. The other grandparent wants the baby. To them, all you are doing is killing their grandchild.

First of all, I would inform my child of all the options I could think of for any choice to be made. In this case, I would inform them of the options of keeping it, adoption, abortion. I would let them decide what to do. Secondly, it is not my or anyone elses choice except the mother's. If it where my choice, I would be carrying the potential baby.

Quote:
Bottom line. You don't want a kid don't have sex...
I agree. However, I still find it necessary for the option of abortion.

Quote:
...or use birth control
Contraceptives and birth control are not foolproof, they do fail from time to time.

Quote:
If you don't want a baby, put it up for adoption, but at least give your baby what it deserves a chance at life, something that you were given as well.
Why does it deserve this chance?

Quote:
Birthcontrol fails. Do you know how many couples that can't have babies and would absolutely love to have your baby, especially if you can't take care of it? In the Bible, children who are adopted are to be given all the rights of the firstborn. Adoption was made for a reason.
Apparently not enough. The majority seeking adoption in the U.S. are wanting white, non-disabled infants while babies of different races overrun things such as foster home. Moreover, those who grow up in foster homes are likely to be physically, mentally, emotionally, and/or sexually abused. Why would I want to give something the chance of being horribly mistreated?

Quote:
...I'd cut the balls off every person I knew was a rapist...
Nice to know that all rapists are men. rolleyes
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:40 pm


I was not being prejudice towards men. I know there are plenty of women who are rapist. Men are the first I would think of becuase they are the opposite sex.

I'm fully aware that birth control fails.

Nevermind, I'm not beating around the bush.

People need to admit that no matter how you look at abortion, there is a life lost in the situation. It shouldn't be debated whether babies are alive. They need food, blood, are air from you. Why should babies deserve life? Why shouldn't they? Have they done something so terribly wrong to want to live when they are conceived? Women don't regret abortion? All that says to me is that they are selfish. Why can't you go through nine months of pregnancy just to give something a chance to live? My mother almost died giving birth to my sister. The doctor even told her not to have anymore children, but she kept me and my brother. We are really poor, so they had trouble feeding us sometime. But we pulled through it and my mother is reaping the reward of her sacrifice. Nine months and something wonderful occurs.

I know adoption centers are full and the systems gone to hell. Why, instead of picking a child you think'll be perfect for you take a child that you look at and can immediatley see that it needs something. Adopt more kids than you originally wanted. Even if it stretches you a little, you are giving that kid a life. Everyone on this planet except for very young people are responsible for the adoption system being like it is. I wish I could just say things face to face because sometimes, words are just not enough. I want to express to you people how wonderful bringing a life into the world is. Have you ever asked someone who's had a baby just how wonderful it was to see what they had made? It is the most wonderful feeling in the world. I just want all babies to have an equal chance at life. Babies are people too.

XXXDELETEDXXXGONEXXX


Foetus In Fetu

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:09 pm


I should refuse to debate with you if all you have is emotional rhetoric and terms I've asked you please not to use because they are largely inaccurate.

Mercution
Have they done something so terribly wrong to want to live when they are conceived?

I doubt the vast majority of them want anything at all.

Mercution
Women don't regret abortion? All that says to me is that they are selfish.

So you want people to feel bad?

First you tell me that abortion is wrong because women regret it, then you say that if women don't regret it then they are selfish, implied: because abortion is wrong. That's circular logic.

Mercution
Why can't you go through nine months of pregnancy just to give something a chance to live?

Why aren't I giving away my kidney just to give something a chance to live?
Why aren't I giving away pieces of my liver just to give something a chance to live?
Why don't I go sign up for bone marrow donation just to give something a chance to live?
Should I be forced to give blood every four months just because I can?

I shouldn't have to explain why people choose not to do any of these things, all of which are depriving others (and, with the exception, born, inarguably possessed of personhood people) of valuable resources for living. There are many reasons and they are varied.

Mercution
I want to express to you people how wonderful bringing a life into the world is. Have you ever asked someone who's had a baby just how wonderful it was to see what they had made? It is the most wonderful feeling in the world.

When it is wanted, it is all of those things. Being unprepared or unsuited or going through personal problems can change everything, though. For some people, it is never any of those things, and that isn't 'wrong' or 'unnatural' and they won't "change their minds".

You know that not everyone likes the same flavour of ice cream as you.

Mercution
Babies are people too.

If you mean 'fetuses', that's disputed.
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Morality and Ethics

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