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 Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:14 pm
Mercution -If god knows who will go to heaven and hell, what is the point of creating those who will go to hell? -If god truly loved us, would he not make himself explicitly known, in such a way that would be unmistakeable, under any circumstance, to us? -What is fair? Just? etc? There is always a majority consent in such a way that it is a democratic majority consent, to how such things are defined. (will go into further explanation on how the majority always decides, and how it is democraticly decided in every case, if requested)? This is a quote to see what I'm writing withoput the whole thing. God creates those who go to hell as he would everyone else. While, yes in the end, God knows what we'll pick. Those who go to hell are examples to those who don't. If he made no one that went to hell in the end, then everyone one would be Christians and there would really be no choice. God gives us choice. But, mind, I am not God. I cannot understand God. I am writing this out of my beliefs in God. God does make himself explicitely known. People try to cover him up. Ever heard of Grunyans(I don't know if that's how you spell it)? Grunyans are thought to be a myth because they appear under such strange circumstances. They appear during a full moon at night in about five beaches in the world. They then JUMP onto their tails and lay their eggs. They only appear when the temperature is right. They let the wash drag them back out to sea after they lay their eggs. That is a wonder of God. NO animal would ever have to evolve to do that. God gave us that to inspire us. He made the rainbow. He made everything in mathematics blend seamlessly to other things, including the leaves on a tree(ever heard of fractals?). (PS, I know about Grunyans because of my grandma. Believe me she doesn't lie. She used this as an example for what I'm talking about now). As far as I'm concerned if you can't tell that there is some greater power in our world, you're in denial. I would also like to say the fossils of the leviathin have been found. It is also the dragon Chinese hold so high. My sister was supposed to be death, blind, dumb, cripple, all these things wrong with her if she was even going to live through child birth. My mom had a terrible blood sickness when Anna was in her womb that spread to Anna. My mom was on the brink of death as well. When my sister was born, she was small from being born far to early(C-section). Her heart stopped several times. It was confirmed she had a terrible virus that would kill her early by several doctors. Now? She is 17. She has trouble breathing during running due to small lungs and she has ADD which she has been able to control for the past few years very well. That virus? Doctors deny she had it at all, despite the fact that she was thourghly checked several times. She is not blind, death, or any of those things. My mom is alive. It's just chance? Denial. People do not know what is fair. Majorities belive in things similarly. But, if you looked at all our beliefs with a magnifying glass, you'd be shocked to see the differences between even the most similar people. Oh, no! What do you do if no one agrees on what the Bible means? Read the Bible. Trust in God and ask for him to reveal the things YOU need to know. God gives us the things WE need individually. Because we cannot understand God, these things don't always fit exactly. Remember, you and another persons beliefs on something might be missing a 'puzzle piece'. You don't know what a puzzle looks like until you finish it. Do what you can here on Earth, but in heaven, you'll finish the puzzle no problem. If God already knows whether we'll pick Heaven or Hell, is it really a choice? Evolution is an odd thing. I read once (and admittedly I'm not sure that this is true) that Evolution may occur in jumps, instead of gradually. This would likely produce unpredictable and unusual outcomes, such as the Grunyan you described. Even if it doesn't occur in jumps, it is possible that a series of coincidences led to this pattern of behavior. Perhaps creatures in the water ate the eggs so they moved to land. A sensitivity of the eggs could account for the temperature having to be just right. Jumping on the tails could merely be an error in evolution, an old pattern from laying eggs in the water. Such a creature would likely only appear when the tide is just right, thus the full moon. I'll agree that there are many things in this world that could be attributed to a higher power, but remember the Law of Probabilities, a coin will land on its side sometimes. The differences between similar beliefs? I'm more concerened with the similarities between different beliefs.
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:11 am
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:14 am
(by the way I'm new to the guild hi everyone!)
I agree a lot with what you are saying I've been raised Catholic and have been taught one way of living my whole life and I just cant bring myself to love and believe in a God who preaches forgiveness, tolerance and love and yet has so many strict laws and if you fault you go to such an awful place as hell.
I've learned to take alot of these rules with a grain of salt, I sort of believe in God my own way, I believe that as long as we are good, and try to live peacefully we will be okay, I realy dont even think I believe in hell, maybe nothingness or maybe a place where those who seriously messed up in life (murderers etc...) can go to atone or something, I dont really know, I kind of stopped trying to think so hard about what comes after we die, and focused more on how to live if not for any other reason than to get rid of stress you know? I think what I've really come to believe is that a lot of ancient views of the church and things written in the bible, are rules and laws (such as the 7 deadly sins) were made up not by god at all but by either popes or kings or lawmakers to keep people in order, i guess a way to keep rule over their kingdoms/societys or whatever.
All the contradictions that are in the teachings of the church I personally believe are a conflict between man writing himself into the religion and god himself... or herself...
either way I stopped going to church, stopped wearing a cross (why wear a necklace of an object ment for death, why guilt people into a religion by showing how horribly one man died, rather than show how good he lived?) and I am starting to recognize jesus as more of a prophet, I'm thinking 'son of god' was more of a metaphor anyway (in church arent we taught that we are all gods children???) i never really saw him as a 'god' anyway.
so anyway i guess my point is, people should take religion their own way, or even take things from other religions and mix them together to live a lifestyle that suits you. rather than living in fear and guilt because a church tells you that you are going to a horrible place otherwise, that is no way to live.
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:20 am
Mercution God creates those who go to hell as he would everyone else. While, yes in the end, God knows what we'll pick. Those who go to hell are examples to those who don't. If he made no one that went to hell in the end, then everyone one would be Christians and there would really be no choice. God gives us choice. But, mind, I am not God. I cannot understand God. I am writing this out of my beliefs in God. When we get right down to it, I don't believe in freewill anyway. Secondly, just because everyone would be a christian, and everyone would go to heaven does not imply that there is no choice, or even that there is no freewill. It simply implies that everyone will go to heaven. Quote: God does make himself explicitely known. People try to cover him up. Ever heard of Grunyans(I don't know if that's how you spell it)? Grunyans are thought to be a myth because they appear under such strange circumstances. They appear during a full moon at night in about five beaches in the world. They then JUMP onto their tails and lay their eggs. They only appear when the temperature is right. They let the wash drag them back out to sea after they lay their eggs. That is a wonder of God. NO animal would ever have to evolve to do that. God gave us that to inspire us. He made the rainbow. He made everything in mathematics blend seamlessly to other things, including the leaves on a tree(ever heard of fractals?). (PS, I know about Grunyans because of my grandma. Believe me she doesn't lie. She used this as an example for what I'm talking about now). As far as I'm concerned if you can't tell that there is some greater power in our world, you're in denial. I would also like to say the fossils of the leviathin have been found. It is also the dragon Chinese hold so high. My sister was supposed to be death, blind, dumb, cripple, all these things wrong with her if she was even going to live through child birth. My mom had a terrible blood sickness when Anna was in her womb that spread to Anna. My mom was on the brink of death as well. When my sister was born, she was small from being born far to early(C-section). Her heart stopped several times. It was confirmed she had a terrible virus that would kill her early by several doctors. Now? She is 17. She has trouble breathing during running due to small lungs and she has ADD which she has been able to control for the past few years very well. That virus? Doctors deny she had it at all, despite the fact that she was thourghly checked several times. She is not blind, death, or any of those things. My mom is alive. It's just chance? Denial. First of all, don't feel bad if I don't believe you on the Grunyans, I've never heard of them. If you know of a place where I could get some information on it, I will be glad to look it up, then decide for myself from there. But I'm not about to believe in the simply because you tell me too. I mean, would you believe me if I told you that the sky is actually orange all the time, without any proof? Secondly, if God made himself explicitly known, then I would not be able to doubt all of reality. Anything you say about how God proves himself in this reality can be made a mute point when I utter the phrase "Cartesian Skepticism." Want to know more about it, check out the thread I made on Cartesian Skepticism. Quote: People do not know what is fair. Majorities belive in things similarly. But, if you looked at all our beliefs with a magnifying glass, you'd be shocked to see the differences between even the most similar people. Oh, no! What do you do if no one agrees on what the Bible means? Read the Bible. Trust in God and ask for him to reveal the things YOU need to know. God gives us the things WE need individually. Because we cannot understand God, these things don't always fit exactly. Remember, you and another persons beliefs on something might be missing a 'puzzle piece'. You don't know what a puzzle looks like until you finish it. Do what you can here on Earth, but in heaven, you'll finish the puzzle no problem. Well, I wasn't talking about people and fair, I was inquiring about God and fair. Fair cannot be set by one thing, it must be set by more than one thing. Fair is the bare minimum expectations for an absolute majority of a society.
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:03 pm
I am really making people respond to my posts! Good or bad? *gulp*
Any way. You guys said you can't imagine a place of happy lalaland for eternity. Well... neither can I. I've tried. It's impossible to imagine such things because we are in the world we are in. You can't understand God and his perfect ways. Don't try. It'll give you a headache( oh, many days)
You don't like the idea of not understanding all of what you believe? Well, to the girl who doesn't like grunyans(although I hear they're great cooked), she said she belives that evolution happens in jumps. Others belive it always goes slow. People who believe in evolution don't understand evolution. They believe what they do know. I belive in Einstein's theory of relativity, but do I understand it completely, no. Neither did he, or so I hear. The bigger it is the harder it is to understand.
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:07 pm
chaoticpuppet On excommunication (time for a little devil's advocate) What about the verses in the bible that say something similar to the following, "and if thy right hand offends thee, cut it off?" (I know it's in the New Testament, however, I do not konw where. I have never read it, and am slowly working my way through the OT, currently. Still in Exodus). That is a quote from the scriptures isn't it. I do believe your putting this in a context it is not to be used for. The Bible says to bring people into the faith not kick them out. Besides, excommunication is a judgment from men, which the Bible speaks against. It says God will be the judge.
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:10 pm
SyphaBelnades I have trouble with the idea that a good person who isn't Christian goes to Hell. If I accept one religion, another will tell me that I must follow them, or face eternal punishment. Its the so-called "rock and hard place". As for Heaven itself, I just don't think a flower is as beautiful if it isn't ephemeral. I don't pretend to understand God, I don't even know what "God" is (or even if there is a higher power). Okay, it does suck. Many people say, well, what if I didn't know? If you live in a society with any Christians in it, you should be hearing about God and his laws. If not, those Christians need to be kicked in the butt. The truth is, it does suck, but God has to give you the choice between him and and not him. If you don't choose him, I'm sorry. God states clearly in the Bible that's how it is. God's word is simple, what complicates him is sin.
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:36 pm
Mercution I am really making people respond to my posts! Good or bad? *gulp* Well, if we're flaming you, it's bad. If we're not flaming you, it's good. On a side note, we will not flame you, unless you go against the both Gaia and the Guild rules. And even then, we will try to not flame you. (By we, I mean I, as I can only speak for myself). Quote: You don't like the idea of not understanding all of what you believe? Well, to the girl who doesn't like grunyans(although I hear they're great cooked), she said she belives that evolution happens in jumps. Others belive it always goes slow. People who believe in evolution don't understand evolution. They believe what they do know. I belive in Einstein's theory of relativity, but do I understand it completely, no. Neither did he, or so I hear. The bigger it is the harder it is to understand. I meant, that if you don't fully understand something, you don't fully believe it. You cannot fully believe something you do not know about. For example, (This is a made up theory) Say I believe in The Theory of Quags. In this theory, all I know of it is X, however, what I do not know is Y. I cannot say that I believe in Y of the Theory of Quags because I do not know of Y. You say you believe in Einsteins theory of relativity, yet you do not fully understand it. That can certainly happen, though you cannot say you fully believe it, because their might be something that you do not understand, that if you were to understand you might or might not agree with. Quote: That is a quote from the scriptures isn't it. I do believe your putting this in a context it is not to be used for. The Bible says to bring people into the faith not kick them out. Besides, excommunication is a judgment from men, which the Bible speaks against. It says God will be the judge. Yes, I believe so. I am only repeating it as it has been told to me. When I have inquired other christians about excommunication, they came back to me with this. Also, doesn't the bible say something like "Judge not, lest ye be judged?" If so, how does that make it so that I cannot judge others? Do you have any specific verses where Christians are commanded not to judge? As for the quotes, all you have to do is go back and delete the portion you want to address from the other persons post. (I'm also going to edit your posts so that they show quotes).
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:42 pm
in the gospel(cant give a precise qoute, sorry), there was a woman to be stoned to death. i cant remember the circumstances exactly, but Jesus says to the mob, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." now, there is the original sin from adam and eve in christian and jewish belief, so nobody can cast a stone. basicly, only the truly innocent can judge, but thats nobody, so you shouldnt judge people.
and yes, somewhere it does say "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself."
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:14 pm
Schildkrote in the gospel(cant give a precise qoute, sorry), there was a woman to be stoned to death. i cant remember the circumstances exactly, but Jesus says to the mob, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." now, there is the original sin from adam and eve in christian and jewish belief, so nobody can cast a stone. basicly, only the truly innocent can judge, but thats nobody, so you shouldnt judge people. and yes, somewhere it does say "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself." Well, one of a few things happens here. Either we are misinterpreting the bible, or the bible contradicts itself on the issue of judgement.
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:26 pm
Schildkrote in the gospel(cant give a precise qoute, sorry), there was a woman to be stoned to death. i cant remember the circumstances exactly, but Jesus says to the mob, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." now, there is the original sin from adam and eve in christian and jewish belief, so nobody can cast a stone. basicly, only the truly innocent can judge, but thats nobody, so you shouldnt judge people. and yes, somewhere it does say "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself." I have read this one before A women was caught commiting adultery with a married man so a bunch of Religiouse men and other people gathered to stone her to death in front of the temple, then Jesus came and blah blah, anyways the basic point of the story was that don't judge others for thier sins because you arn't perfect either. Wise words by Jesus (I am still not christian though xp )
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:58 pm
chaoticpuppet Schildkrote in the gospel(cant give a precise qoute, sorry), there was a woman to be stoned to death. i cant remember the circumstances exactly, but Jesus says to the mob, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." now, there is the original sin from adam and eve in christian and jewish belief, so nobody can cast a stone. basicly, only the truly innocent can judge, but thats nobody, so you shouldnt judge people. and yes, somewhere it does say "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself." Well, one of a few things happens here. Either we are misinterpreting the bible, or the bible contradicts itself on the issue of judgement. it contradicts it self on many points continually.
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:16 pm
Schildkrote chaoticpuppet Schildkrote in the gospel(cant give a precise qoute, sorry), there was a woman to be stoned to death. i cant remember the circumstances exactly, but Jesus says to the mob, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." now, there is the original sin from adam and eve in christian and jewish belief, so nobody can cast a stone. basicly, only the truly innocent can judge, but thats nobody, so you shouldnt judge people. and yes, somewhere it does say "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself." Well, one of a few things happens here. Either we are misinterpreting the bible, or the bible contradicts itself on the issue of judgement. it contradicts it self on many points continually. If you know of other places, would you please post them? I would, however, I'm only in Exodus (Book 2 of OT), and have yet to find any there. As for Genesis, I had a notecard with some illogicalities that I found, however, I think I threw it out. So, I'll try to find them again.
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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:21 pm
in genesis, god says that if man were to eat from the tree of knowledge, they could become "as us." that kind of contradicts the only one god philosophy.(ive got a king james bible from the 70's, so a newer edition might have edited that out)
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:54 pm
chaoticpuppet Schildkrote in the gospel(cant give a precise qoute, sorry), there was a woman to be stoned to death. i cant remember the circumstances exactly, but Jesus says to the mob, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." now, there is the original sin from adam and eve in christian and jewish belief, so nobody can cast a stone. basicly, only the truly innocent can judge, but thats nobody, so you shouldnt judge people. and yes, somewhere it does say "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself." Well, one of a few things happens here. Either we are misinterpreting the bible, or the bible contradicts itself on the issue of judgement. The only thing that contradicts the Bible is sin. Not mad, but that kinda insults me.
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