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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:03 am
Enigma Master Andrew Knightgee Goku can blow up Solar systems with a kamehameha, while series Supes can barely cause the planet to shake when fighting someone with near equal strength. Goku can beat series Superman. Goku is going to us an attack that can blow up a Solar System and endanger billions of lives in doing so? Meening this would come down to small scale attacks and who could take the most punishment. Umm Goku Kamehameha is a consintrated attack, all that power without affects a huge area. Like a lazer, Lazer can have the same power as a nuke but only affects or damge a inch of area. Same amount of power, in a smaller area.. Goku has the power in his attack to nock out Solar Sysrems. But Like a lazer its more consintrated so it only affects a smaller area. Anyone can understand that. Spoon!!! 10 points for me.
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:12 pm
@ Kamikazek-Z:
Agreed completely. Saiyans own the word "concentration", which is exactly what they can do with their attacks.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am
Knightgee Goku can blow up Solar systems with a kamehameha, while series Supes can barely cause the planet to shake when fighting someone with near equal strength. Goku can beat series Superman. No where in the Manga or DB DBZ or DBGT has anyone ever destroyed entire solar systems at once. The most they did was blow up planets, which is something Goku has never done, but is assumed to have the power to do so. The AMAZO episode is either "The Return" or "The Greatest Story Never Told" My money is on "The Return" Superman has shown the ability to fight at Superspeed in both the Captain Marvel fight The Fight in "For the Man that Has Everything" and in the final episode.
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:13 am
Also Deadpool has debunked Gotenks moving faster than light in a thread in this Guild. Superman still moves way faster than Goku and is MUCH stronger.
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:27 am
Kamikazek-Z ^Goku can use an attack with more than solar system destroying potential and create nothing more than a crater, which is exactly what Gohan did. He shot a Kamehameha at Cell which could destroy a solar system and then stopped it leaving a crater less than a mile wide or deep. Vageta used an omnidirectional attack that was presumably more powerful, dieing in the prosses, and still managed to confine it into a blast radious small enough that it didn't hurt or kill anyone. Also of note is that Vageta used a more than enough to destroy a planet blast at cell, who was tanding ion the ground, blasted off his arm which was about four feet above the ground, and then redirected the blast up and into space. He didn't harm the ground at all. No crater, no scattered rocks, nothing. Goku has been shown to be able to redirect the Kamehameha mid flight before, he could do the same. Thats BS. The resulting force of a solar stystem buster attack alone not even the attack it's self would have had some kind of reaction with the enviorment. As far as I saw that attack only tore up some dirt. Just skimming the planet on a small degree would result in some sort negative effect wich it did't . Vegetas attack WAS NOT IN ANY WAY A planet buster attack. He was't even at full strength and was weakened. All that attack was was a low level Ki blast ment to destract Cell long enough for Gohan to get the upper hand. Also whats stopping Superman from moveing out of the way and detonating the Ki blast pre-maturely with a shot of heat vision? Unlike many of Goku's foes Superman is't going to stand at a distance and give him a chance to say Kameh ha meh ha! Sure he can redirect it but that still does't meen that Superman will let it hit him. Again he can destroy it with a side blast of heat vision.
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:33 am
Darkphoenix Enigma Master Andrew Knightgee Goku can blow up Solar systems with a kamehameha, while series Supes can barely cause the planet to shake when fighting someone with near equal strength. Goku can beat series Superman. Goku is going to us an attack that can blow up a Solar System and endanger billions of lives in doing so? Meening this would come down to small scale attacks and who could take the most punishment. Umm Goku Kamehameha is a consintrated attack, all that power without affects a huge area. Like a lazer, Lazer can have the same power as a nuke but only affects or damge a inch of area. Same amount of power, in a smaller area.. Goku has the power in his attack to nock out Solar Sysrems. But Like a lazer its more consintrated so it only affects a smaller area. Anyone can understand that. Spoon!!! 10 points for me. The resulting explosion that those blasts always have would be enough to destroy a continent and most likely more than that.. Either way Goku should know better than to use an attack on that level near any kind of life. Now if they where in uninhabited galaxy that would be differnt. Also you assume Superman would allow such an attack to even hit him he could easily move to the side. I don't even think Goku would get one of those off because Superman is a close range fighter and Goku is always a good distance away from his opponent when he uses that attack.
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:48 am
Saiyan Master Vegeta @ Kamikazek-Z: Agreed completely. Saiyans own the word "concentration", which is exactly what they can do with their attacks. That defys so many laws. NO matter how much concentration they have I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that they can control the scale of the resulting explosions and shock waves..
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:22 pm
All ki that is powerful enough to do anything but push thigs away is visable. That means that the beam you see when Goku fires the kamehameha is the entire attack, there is no eversess energy oozing out. If there was, you would be able to see it. The Ki in beam attacks only harms whatever toutches the beam , untill the beam detonates, and all the energy is released in a big explosion. Beams hardly ever detonate, and to my knowlegde have never detonated when someone didn't want them to, and they can be stoped intirely without any detonation at all. Ki balls are a diffrent matter, but the Kamehameha isn't a ki ball. Also note that the Kamehameha that Goku uses to blow off Cells upper body was a planet buster, the fighters who were watching wondered what the hell Goku was doing because the blast that he was firing could destroy the plannet if it hit it directly, but Goku still fired it, and he didn't hit the earth, instead shooting it upward. He is willing to use planet busters ect.. Also, the Vageta atttack you mentioned wasn't either of the ones I'm pointing out. The one he used on Cell that I pointed out was a planet buster(as stated by Trunks), was when Vageta was at about full power, and happened when Gohan was in the hiperbolic time chaimber.
Beams like the kamehameha can withstand extreem ammounts of pressure like a solar system destroying Kamehameha hitting them or Frezza going directly trough one covered in an enerhy field. Lazzer eyebeams aren't going to set it off prematurely, and if Superman somehow did manage to the explosion would hit him and do major dammage to the planet, if not destroying it. But I thnik the best possible he could do is push the Kamehameha back, which I dout he can do.
I'm sure that Goku can come up with some way to hit Superman with a Kamehameha, he's hit meele fighters with it before. He could always try the old Cell games kamehameha trick, It point blank behind Superman with and already charged and initiated kamehameha and hitting him with it. Also you're assuming that Superman will try to dodge it. He has a bad habbit of trying to block energy beams with his arms or chest.
@Pym-I don't see why people insist on saying that DBZ characters can't do what they are said to be cappable of. I've never seen people say characters can't do what they're so clearly stated to be cappable of except in thecase of DBZ plannet/solar system busters. Now, if I were an author and I were to say once that my character can lift a billion tons, or move five times the speed of light, or that his X attack can destroy a mountain, and people started saying "well, you can't be sure that's true because they've never done so in practice" I would be quite annoyed. If they're capable of something they're capable of it, and if they haven't done so then it's either beause they've never have had reason to or because they don't want to. Now, Toriyama went further than just having someone say Cell could destroy a solar system, which I would think should be enough to make it fact, he went out of his way and waisted time having evry character he could think of reiterate the fact that the attack could in fact destroy a solar system, as if to make sure that no one would dout it. And people still don't belive him. I would also point out that not only would destroying a planet be out of Goku's character, but also that it has never been too his benifit to destroy the any planet. Any point previous to his laerning of the IT destroying the planet he's on would result in his own death. Vs. Androids 19 and 20 it would have been useless because he was way stronger than them anyway. Against Cell it would be useless because Cell can survive in space. Same thing with Buu. I'm not even going to coun't GT since nothing in GT makes sense anyway.
I know that Superman has superspeed, I've seen bolth of the mentioned episodes. But he has nothng on Goku's level. And yes, I know that Gotenks(and, in my opinion, no other DBZ character evcept probably Vegeto) can exced the speed of light, but when is it shown or said that cartoon Suprman can move and furthermore fight at light speed. Also, you must consider the fact that SSJ3 Goku is almost definitly faster than SSJ1Gotenks.
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:30 am
Kamikazek-Z All ki that is powerful enough to do anything but push thigs away is visable. That means that the beam you see when Goku fires the kamehameha is the entire attack, there is no eversess energy oozing out. If there was, you would be able to see it. The Ki in beam attacks only harms whatever toutches the beam , untill the beam detonates, and all the energy is released in a big explosion. Beams hardly ever detonate, and to my knowlegde have never detonated when someone didn't want them to, and they can be stoped intirely without any detonation at all. Ki balls are a diffrent matter, but the Kamehameha isn't a ki ball. Also note that the Kamehameha that Goku uses to blow off Cells upper body was a planet buster, the fighters who were watching wondered what the hell Goku was doing because the blast that he was firing could destroy the plannet if it hit it directly, but Goku still fired it, and he didn't hit the earth, instead shooting it upward. He is willing to use planet busters ect.. Also, the Vageta atttack you mentioned wasn't either of the ones I'm pointing out. The one he used on Cell that I pointed out was a planet buster(as stated by Trunks), was when Vageta was at about full power, and happened when Gohan was in the hiperbolic time chaimber. Beams like the kamehameha can withstand extreem ammounts of pressure like a solar system destroying Kamehameha hitting them or Frezza going directly trough one covered in an enerhy field. Lazzer eyebeams aren't going to set it off prematurely, and if Superman somehow did manage to the explosion would hit him and do major dammage to the planet, if not destroying it. But I thnik the best possible he could do is push the Kamehameha back, which I dout he can do. I'm sure that Goku can come up with some way to hit Superman with a Kamehameha, he's hit meele fighters with it before. He could always try the old Cell games kamehameha trick, It point blank behind Superman with and already charged and initiated kamehameha and hitting him with it. Also you're assuming that Superman will try to dodge it. He has a bad habbit of trying to block energy beams with his arms or chest. @Pym-I don't see why people insist on saying that DBZ characters can't do what they are said to be cappable of. I've never seen people say characters can't do what they're so clearly stated to be cappable of except in thecase of DBZ plannet/solar system busters. Now, if I were an author and I were to say once that my character can lift a billion tons, or move five times the speed of light, or that his X attack can destroy a mountain, and people started saying "well, you can't be sure that's true because they've never done so in practice" I would be quite annoyed. If they're capable of something they're capable of it, and if they haven't done so then it's either beause they've never have had reason to or because they don't want to. Now, Toriyama went further than just having someone say Cell could destroy a solar system, which I would think should be enough to make it fact, he went out of his way and waisted time having evry character he could think of reiterate the fact that the attack could in fact destroy a solar system, as if to make sure that no one would dout it. And people still don't belive him. I would also point out that not only would destroying a planet be out of Goku's character, but also that it has never been too his benifit to destroy the any planet. Any point previous to his laerning of the IT destroying the planet he's on would result in his own death. Vs. Androids 19 and 20 it would have been useless because he was way stronger than them anyway. Against Cell it would be useless because Cell can survive in space. Same thing with Buu. I'm not even going to coun't GT since nothing in GT makes sense anyway. I know that Superman has superspeed, I've seen bolth of the mentioned episodes. But he has nothng on Goku's level. And yes, I know that Gotenks(and, in my opinion, no other DBZ character evcept probably Vegeto) can exced the speed of light, but when is it shown or said that cartoon Suprman can move and furthermore fight at light speed. Also, you must consider the fact that SSJ3 Goku is almost definitly faster than SSJ1Gotenks. Hitting an attack from the side and meeting it head on are two very differnt things. I have seen NOTHINHG! That leads me to believe that any of them can control the explosions that result from thier attacks. Kamehameha is a Ki ball that Goku keeps pumping energy into to make it into a beam. Alright I'll but that. Now your questioning Superman's strength? The resulting explosion from a blast like that would only push him back at best. And like you said he'd try to push the beams back with his arms or chest wich SUperman is fully capable of. Istant transmission won't work Superman's Super hearing will alert of of a Goku's reappearance and allow him to to react accrodordingly before Goku could give of the final HA! Goku is now close range to Superman who most likely grabbed the Ki ball before it left Goku's hands and hold it thier. This would result in a grapple wich I'm sorry to say Z fans but the Z fighters are not very good in this department. If the Kamehameha was fired long range Superman would just push it back towards him or deflect it.Plus Goku has to call out the names of his attacks wcharge them up and then use them where as Superman could just fly in and kick a**. I would say Superman would Lobotomize Goku like he did to Doomsday but that would be out of character. Superman's heat vision would do consierable damage to Goku seeing how as hes afraid of fire. Also I still say that if this fight moved to space then Goku has no chance against Superman. He does't have the lung power to hold his breath long enough. People seem to convinietly forget that Goku can run out of Ki energy wich he had before. Superman would simply wear him down to the point that that happened.
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:34 am
Kamikazek-Z All ki that is powerful enough to do anything but push thigs away is visable. That means that the beam you see when Goku fires the kamehameha is the entire attack, there is no eversess energy oozing out. If there was, you would be able to see it. The Ki in beam attacks only harms whatever toutches the beam , untill the beam detonates, and all the energy is released in a big explosion. Beams hardly ever detonate, and to my knowlegde have never detonated when someone didn't want them to, and they can be stoped intirely without any detonation at all. Ki balls are a diffrent matter, but the Kamehameha isn't a ki ball. Also note that the Kamehameha that Goku uses to blow off Cells upper body was a planet buster, the fighters who were watching wondered what the hell Goku was doing because the blast that he was firing could destroy the plannet if it hit it directly, but Goku still fired it, and he didn't hit the earth, instead shooting it upward. He is willing to use planet busters ect.. Also, the Vageta atttack you mentioned wasn't either of the ones I'm pointing out. The one he used on Cell that I pointed out was a planet buster(as stated by Trunks), was when Vageta was at about full power, and happened when Gohan was in the hiperbolic time chaimber. Beams like the kamehameha can withstand extreem ammounts of pressure like a solar system destroying Kamehameha hitting them or Frezza going directly trough one covered in an enerhy field. Lazzer eyebeams aren't going to set it off prematurely, and if Superman somehow did manage to the explosion would hit him and do major dammage to the planet, if not destroying it. But I thnik the best possible he could do is push the Kamehameha back, which I dout he can do. I'm sure that Goku can come up with some way to hit Superman with a Kamehameha, he's hit meele fighters with it before. He could always try the old Cell games kamehameha trick, It point blank behind Superman with and already charged and initiated kamehameha and hitting him with it. Also you're assuming that Superman will try to dodge it. He has a bad habbit of trying to block energy beams with his arms or chest. @Pym-I don't see why people insist on saying that DBZ characters can't do what they are said to be cappable of. I've never seen people say characters can't do what they're so clearly stated to be cappable of except in thecase of DBZ plannet/solar system busters. Now, if I were an author and I were to say once that my character can lift a billion tons, or move five times the speed of light, or that his X attack can destroy a mountain, and people started saying "well, you can't be sure that's true because they've never done so in practice" I would be quite annoyed. If they're capable of something they're capable of it, and if they haven't done so then it's either beause they've never have had reason to or because they don't want to. Now, Toriyama went further than just having someone say Cell could destroy a solar system, which I would think should be enough to make it fact, he went out of his way and waisted time having evry character he could think of reiterate the fact that the attack could in fact destroy a solar system, as if to make sure that no one would dout it. And people still don't belive him. I would also point out that not only would destroying a planet be out of Goku's character, but also that it has never been too his benifit to destroy the any planet. Any point previous to his laerning of the IT destroying the planet he's on would result in his own death. Vs. Androids 19 and 20 it would have been useless because he was way stronger than them anyway. Against Cell it would be useless because Cell can survive in space. Same thing with Buu. I'm not even going to coun't GT since nothing in GT makes sense anyway. I know that Superman has superspeed, I've seen bolth of the mentioned episodes. But he has nothng on Goku's level. And yes, I know that Gotenks(and, in my opinion, no other DBZ character evcept probably Vegeto) can exced the speed of light, but when is it shown or said that cartoon Suprman can move and furthermore fight at light speed. Also, you must consider the fact that SSJ3 Goku is almost definitly faster than SSJ1Gotenks. I want you to count the actual times SHOWN anything more than a planet being destroyed by ANY Character in the Animated Series or Manga DB, DBZ or GT. Canon shows of force, guess what? They don't exist. As far as the Z warriors are conserned the only that has even blown up a planet was Vegeta and he had a "special attack" for that purpose. The only other ones that come close are Roshi and Piccolo they each blew up the moon. Buu who was way more powerful than CELL blew up solar systems one planet at a time.
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:55 am
Dr Henry Pym Kamikazek-Z All ki that is powerful enough to do anything but push thigs away is visable. That means that the beam you see when Goku fires the kamehameha is the entire attack, there is no eversess energy oozing out. If there was, you would be able to see it. The Ki in beam attacks only harms whatever toutches the beam , untill the beam detonates, and all the energy is released in a big explosion. Beams hardly ever detonate, and to my knowlegde have never detonated when someone didn't want them to, and they can be stoped intirely without any detonation at all. Ki balls are a diffrent matter, but the Kamehameha isn't a ki ball. Also note that the Kamehameha that Goku uses to blow off Cells upper body was a planet buster, the fighters who were watching wondered what the hell Goku was doing because the blast that he was firing could destroy the plannet if it hit it directly, but Goku still fired it, and he didn't hit the earth, instead shooting it upward. He is willing to use planet busters ect.. Also, the Vageta atttack you mentioned wasn't either of the ones I'm pointing out. The one he used on Cell that I pointed out was a planet buster(as stated by Trunks), was when Vageta was at about full power, and happened when Gohan was in the hiperbolic time chaimber. Beams like the kamehameha can withstand extreem ammounts of pressure like a solar system destroying Kamehameha hitting them or Frezza going directly trough one covered in an enerhy field. Lazzer eyebeams aren't going to set it off prematurely, and if Superman somehow did manage to the explosion would hit him and do major dammage to the planet, if not destroying it. But I thnik the best possible he could do is push the Kamehameha back, which I dout he can do. I'm sure that Goku can come up with some way to hit Superman with a Kamehameha, he's hit meele fighters with it before. He could always try the old Cell games kamehameha trick, It point blank behind Superman with and already charged and initiated kamehameha and hitting him with it. Also you're assuming that Superman will try to dodge it. He has a bad habbit of trying to block energy beams with his arms or chest. @Pym-I don't see why people insist on saying that DBZ characters can't do what they are said to be cappable of. I've never seen people say characters can't do what they're so clearly stated to be cappable of except in thecase of DBZ plannet/solar system busters. Now, if I were an author and I were to say once that my character can lift a billion tons, or move five times the speed of light, or that his X attack can destroy a mountain, and people started saying "well, you can't be sure that's true because they've never done so in practice" I would be quite annoyed. If they're capable of something they're capable of it, and if they haven't done so then it's either beause they've never have had reason to or because they don't want to. Now, Toriyama went further than just having someone say Cell could destroy a solar system, which I would think should be enough to make it fact, he went out of his way and waisted time having evry character he could think of reiterate the fact that the attack could in fact destroy a solar system, as if to make sure that no one would dout it. And people still don't belive him. I would also point out that not only would destroying a planet be out of Goku's character, but also that it has never been too his benifit to destroy the any planet. Any point previous to his laerning of the IT destroying the planet he's on would result in his own death. Vs. Androids 19 and 20 it would have been useless because he was way stronger than them anyway. Against Cell it would be useless because Cell can survive in space. Same thing with Buu. I'm not even going to coun't GT since nothing in GT makes sense anyway. I know that Superman has superspeed, I've seen bolth of the mentioned episodes. But he has nothng on Goku's level. And yes, I know that Gotenks(and, in my opinion, no other DBZ character evcept probably Vegeto) can exced the speed of light, but when is it shown or said that cartoon Suprman can move and furthermore fight at light speed. Also, you must consider the fact that SSJ3 Goku is almost definitly faster than SSJ1Gotenks. I want you to count the actual times SHOWN anything more than a planet being destroyed by ANY Character in the Animated Series or Manga DB, DBZ or GT. Canon shows of force, guess what? They don't exist. As far as the Z warriors are conserned the only that has even blown up a planet was Vegeta and he had a "special attack" for that purpose. The only other ones that come close are Roshi and Piccolo they each blew up the moon. Buu who was way more powerful than CELL blew up solar systems one planet at a time. First of all, I think people are forgetting that this is TV Supes, and to my knowledge he has never withstood a planet busting attack anyway. But if you really want proof of Goku's power, in the fight with Cell, the Kamehameha he used was stated to have the power to blow up the solar system, Goku eventually surpasses Cell in power, so he too can do that if he chooses to. Also, for the people trying to apply logic to DBZ in terms of concentration, I laugh at you. If Goku says his attack can blow up the planet(or if onlookers say it can), then it can. Just because Goku is skilled enough to be able to fire attacks without killing everyone doesn't mean he can't do it. It's an ethical reason, not a lack of power. Buu took out planets one at a time because he was insane. had he wanted he could have taken the solar system out, but he clearly wasn't in his right mind, otherwise he wouldn't hjave been kamikazeing planets when he has shown the ability to blow planets up with a single miniscule blast. Since Goku has been stated to have this power and has consistently fought people who do, he clearly could do it if he chose to. Regardless Tv Supes stilll loses, unless you can show me where in the animated series he has taken a planet busting attack and has gotten up like it was nothing. SHOW ME WHERE HE HAS DONE THAT. Also, show me where a non-amped Superman has moved at the speed of light in the TV series or anywhere beyond it.
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Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:17 pm
@ Pym: Frieza blew up planets on a daily basis. He did it for fun. And when Vegeta blew up that planet, he didn't use a "special attack". He never said anything about it. He simply extented one finger, shot a beam, and the planet was toast. And Cell most definitely had the power to blow up the solar system. Not planet by planet, but with one Kamehameha. The one he used against Gohan.  Now for starters, Cell never got the chance to blow up the solar system because Gohan's over-powered his. That's why it never happened. And some would think that in such a case, Gohan's Kamehameha should have destroyed the solar system, but that's not the reality. Gohan let his beam drift off into outer space, and die out. On purpose. He's smart enough to know to not hit anything. Cell on the other hand, would have continued the beam until it hit something, considering his intentions. Secondly, Cell never lied once throughout the entire series. Thus, there's no reason for him to lie there either. Hell, Goku even took the time to warn Gohan about Cell's ability, meaning that he agreed with Cell. And Goku has used the Kamehameha the most out of anyone in the series, meaning that he out of all people would know what a Kamehameha is capable of. Therefore, Cell's words are true.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:06 pm
Dr Henry Pym I want you to count the actual times SHOWN anything more than a planet being destroyed by ANY Character in the Animated Series or Manga DB, DBZ or GT. Canon shows of force, guess what? They don't exist. As far as the Z warriors are conserned the only that has even blown up a planet was Vegeta and he had a "special attack" for that purpose. The only other ones that come close are Roshi and Piccolo they each blew up the moon. Buu who was way more powerful than CELL blew up solar systems one planet at a time. ..So Frieza never blew up the Planet Vegeta? what did a bloody Meteor actually hit it like they told Vegeta?
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:55 pm
Vegeta never blew up a planet. That was uncanonical filler. And I think Pym meant Frieza, not Vegeta.
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:29 pm
Enigma Master Andrew Those movements are slowed down. The creators only gave the flash a blur because thas his trade mark. In almost every picture of the flash you'd find he'd have a blur about him . It's kind of like a signature pose fot him.
Long range we can agree goes to Superman because hes shown more use of it where as Goku tends to only fight close range. Supes however is al range. Yea he got there just in time to see Vegeta beaten to a pulp also it took him about 1-3 episodes to even arrive on the scene if I recall correctly. Brainiac can also destroy planets with the beams he fires and Superman can push those back simply by using his chest.
NOT FAIR NOT FAIR NOT FAIR! BLASPHEMY!!! NO NO NO! Does it EVER say that? EVER? Sorry for the caps, but no I am about to have a stroke! Isn't that against the rules? If so, people from DBZ, definitely move much faster than shown, and it is slown down for us, the omnicient viewer. And same can be said about Star Wars. If that statement can be true, then 90% of the arguements putting down star wars and dbz will be totally uncredible. it would shake the fabric of VS threads (no pun inteneded). I don't want to sound like I'm snapping at you, but really, do you mean that? Because If you do, either: a. you're wrong b. you're right, and the ppl from DBU and Star Wars are MUCH MUCH stronger than shown. c. i'm just mad that i hav to wait till december to get my intermediate license. (I dont think its c so much.)
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