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 Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:13 pm
ok....I will start reading and researching
busy....
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:22 pm
Justin_Lee Interesting Google entry, but I don't feel the Bible gives any indication that our purification is incomplete once we accept Christ as our Lord. 1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. There are dozens of verses that mention our total purification in Christ Jesus, and none that indicate that there would be further need for it after death. (To stay on topic, I don't feel the question was sufficiently answered as to reconcile Catholic doctrine with the Word of God. But feel free to move on to the next question, since it's already been asked. smile ) I don't believe it does either. Just trying to help with question answering.
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:57 pm
Amiruni I agree it is through the Holy Spirit that you are saved in baptism, but it is though the sacrement that he comes to us. I disagree. The Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus said that He'd send another paraclete (John 14:16), which is the Holy Spirit. So, the Father sent His Son, and the Holy Spirit is proceeded from the Father and the Son. It's not what we have done, it's what God has done for us (Ephesians 2:8, 9). Amiruni Through Baptism the Holy Spirit comes to you. So, the man who was dying on the cross, who asked Jesus to not forget him, was not saved? If this is the case, then are you calling Jesus a liar? Baptism of water does not bring the Holy Spirit unto you. We don't have control of the Spirit's work. Amiruni You don't need the water per say but you do need the sacrement. As what Luther said, though I'm not a Protestant, there are only two sacraments: baptism and the Lord's Supper (also known as Mass, Eucharist, and Communion). If I am to be baptized (though I was by infant baptism, even though I never professed my faith until later in life), then this is public witnessing, so that everyone who was a witness, knows that I have began to live in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. It is symbolically, dying to sin and living in Christ. Amiruni And as for the theif next to Jesus. Jesus in that moment gave him baptism personally, not with water but through his intercession. He can do that. Since he is in heaven we must rely on the sacrements he gave us to coem closer to him. And do you have any Scripture to back this up? Also, you seem to have skipped Paul.
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:48 am
Theopneustos Amiruni 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Let's say that you have been taught a certain doctrine in the church you grew up in. But this doctrine was actually only important to show that you have come to repentance, and that you claim to be what you say that you are. What I am talking about here is baptism. Baptism of water, that is. Let's now say that you believe you must be baptized, not only by the Holy Spirit, but by water as well to be saved. Like, as if it were some magical mix. Holy Spirit + Water = Salvation. Would you give up the doctrine of baptism of water, that is, if you knew that it was not necessary to be baptized by water to be saved? done for us. In continuation of what I am talking about, what it means is that if our faith is real, genuine, true, whatever word that you want to use that is synonymous, then you will do good works. Our faith saves us, our works is the evidence that our faith is real. So ending this, you are not saved There are people today who believe that you must be baptized by water to be saved. And for their "proof," they bring up verses, such as Mark 16:16 and John 3:5. The thing is, they take it out of context, for even the man who was dying on the cross, who rebuked the other man who insulted Jesus, said to Jesus to not forget him. Then Jesus declared that the man would be with Him in paradise. Or, there are the other people who were not even baptized, and Paul says that he didn't baptize everyone, because that is not what he was called to do, though he baptized some people, but not all the people. If you think that you must be baptized by water to be saved, then you are saying that Christ's death didn't full pay the price, and you put His death to shame. Ah, but there are those then who say, "James said, 'Faith without deeds is dead!'" This, again, is taken out of context, for Paul said that we are justified by faith. Now, Paul was saying that against those who believed that they could be saved by what they did, but James was against those who thought, "Hey, I believe Jesus was God, so I'm saved." That's mere intellectual agreement, not faith. So, to clear up such matters, we are not saved by what we do, but by what God has by baptism of water, but by of Spirit. First of all I have no proof that Baptism isn't nessary for salvation. I have scripture that says it is. Mark 16:15,16 - He Who Believes and Is Baptized Will Be Saved. It is like 1 + 1 = 2. Take one away and you no longer have two. It says we must do two things to be saved. To be lost, you only need to omit one of them. If you don't have faith, you probably would not be baptized, and if you did it would not do any good. To be lost is easy - just don't believe. To be saved is harder - you must both believe and be baptized. Acts 2:38 says be baptized "for remission of sins." Matthew 26:28 says Jesus blood would be shed for many "for remission of sins." Did Jesus shed His blood because people already had remission of sins? Not at all. He did it so people who did not have remission could receive it. Likewise, baptism is not administered because people already have remission but so people who do not have it can receive it. Romans 6:3 - We Are Baptized into Jesus' Death Saul had seen Jesus on the road, clearly believed in Him, and was willing to obey Him (22:5-10; 9:3-6). He had even been praying (9:9,11). If anyone could be saved before baptism, it would be Saul. Was he saved? Jesus had said Saul should go into the city and would be told what he must do (9:6). Ananias came and told him to be baptized and wash away his sins. Anything else about this before I move on?
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:29 am
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:38 pm
I have a question: where in the Bible does it say anything about running a church using preists, nuns, monks, bishops, cardinals, or popes? And if it doesn't, then why does the "Church" use them?
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:17 pm
Akashi-batosai I have a question: where in the Bible does it say anything about running a church using preists, nuns, monks, bishops, cardinals, or popes? And if it doesn't, then why does the "Church" use them? It doesn't, and tradition.
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:00 pm
Amiruni First of all I have no proof that Baptism isn't nessary for salvation. I have scripture that says it is. Let's see then. Amiruni Mark 16:15,16 - He Who Believes and Is Baptized Will Be Saved. I've already dealt with this. Theopneustos There are people today who believe that you must be baptized by water to be saved. And for their "proof," they bring up verses, such as Mark 16:16 and John 3:5. Also, you're missing the criminal on the cross who died with Jesus (Luke 23:43). He wasn't baptized. His faith saved him instead. Amiruni It is like 1 + 1 = 2. Take one away and you no longer have two. It says we must do two things to be saved. To be lost, you only need to omit one of them. If you don't have faith, you probably would not be baptized, and if you did it would not do any good. To be lost is easy - just don't believe. To be saved is harder - you must both believe and be baptized. So then, what you're saying is that Christ's death was inadequate, and that we must do something to be saved. The magical, miracle mix: Faith + Baptism of Water = Salvation. This is untrue, for Paul even declared that whoever calls on the Lord's name and believes in his heart, is saved. Christ said that whoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but have eternal life. And yet, you still dodged the part where Paul didn't baptize people. I wonder if they're in hell. Amiruni Acts 2:38 says be baptized "for remission of sins." Matthew 26:28 says Jesus blood would be shed for many "for remission of sins." Peter says "Repent and be baptized." Notice that baptism is after repentance, not before. They've already received the Holy Spirit. Baptism of water is an outward expression of your faith, like that of a woman who wears a wedding ring. Amiruni Did Jesus shed His blood because people already had remission of sins? Not at all. He did it so people who did not have remission could receive it. Likewise, baptism is not administered because people already have remission but so people who do not have it can receive it. Scripture, please? Amiruni Romans 6:3 - We Are Baptized into Jesus' Death Saul had seen Jesus on the road, clearly believed in Him, and was willing to obey Him (22:5-10; 9:3-6). He had even been praying (9:9,11). If anyone could be saved before baptism, it would be Saul. Was he saved? Jesus had said Saul should go into the city and would be told what he must do (9:6). Ananias came and told him to be baptized and wash away his sins. I'm sorry, but you can't rule out one person (Saul) and say everyone else (the world) must be baptized. Also, tell me, what was it that Paul was told to do? As for Romans 6:3, bringing it into light, again, baptism is symbolic. We are getting rid of our old selves and as an act of coming up, it symbolizes a new life, the resurrection. Amiruni Anything else about this before I move on? If you got this from a site, please give us the source.
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:02 pm
Amiruni First of all I have no proof that Baptism isn't nessary for salvation. I have scripture that says it is. Either you haven't looked hard enough, or you're ignoring a lot of verses in Scripture. Take a look at the examples below... Quote: Mark 16:15,16 - He Who Believes and Is Baptized Will Be Saved. It is like 1 + 1 = 2. Take one away and you no longer have two. It says we must do two things to be saved. To be lost, you only need to omit one of them. If you don't have faith, you probably would not be baptized, and if you did it would not do any good. To be lost is easy - just don't believe. To be saved is harder - you must both believe and be baptized. Make sure to take this verse in light of other Scripture. No baptism mentioned in Romans 10: Romans 10:9-10,13 - 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ... 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.No baptism mentioned in Ephesians 2: Ephesians 2:8-9 - 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.No baptism mentioned in 1 John 5: 1 John 5:12-13 - 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.So, we have a bunch of verses that say we only need to have faith to be saved. How do these fit in with Mark 16? Well, let's dig into that verse a bit. Although it does say that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, this does not necessarily mean that you must be baptized to be saved. If believing is the requirement for salvation, as the verses above clearly communicate, then you could say that those who believe and [fill in the blank with anything] will be saved. Those who believe and drive a car will be saved. Those who believe and eat spaghetti will be saved. Those who believe and run a marathon will be saved. Are these statements not true? Actually, they are because anyone who believes, regardless of what else he does along with it, will be saved. Also, look at the second half of the verse. "...but whoever does not beleive will be condemned." Does this say that those who are not baptized will be condemned? No, it only says that those who do not believe will be condemned. This is just another support for the fact that belief is the only necessary step to salvation. Quote: Acts 2:38 says be baptized "for remission of sins." Matthew 26:28 says Jesus blood would be shed for many "for remission of sins." Did Jesus shed His blood because people already had remission of sins? Not at all. He did it so people who did not have remission could receive it. Likewise, baptism is not administered because people already have remission but so people who do not have it can receive it. Be careful not to leave out important details from the verses... Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Once again, we have a verse that mentions baptism in conjunction with repentance. As I have said, in light of Scripture that mentions only faith and repentance, it would only make sense that baptism is not a requirement of salvation. It would seem that baptism as a natural step to take afterwards, but not part of the process. Acts 8:37 - 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.Quote: Romans 6:3 - We Are Baptized into Jesus' Death Saul had seen Jesus on the road, clearly believed in Him, and was willing to obey Him (22:5-10; 9:3-6). He had even been praying (9:9,11). If anyone could be saved before baptism, it would be Saul. Was he saved? Jesus had said Saul should go into the city and would be told what he must do (9:6). Ananias came and told him to be baptized and wash away his sins. I'm not fully positive on this matter, but here is how I interpret this passage. The word "baptism" is a transliteration, which is to say that it was taken from another language without actually translating it to an already existing English word. The Greek word for baptism is baptisma, which translates to "immersion, or submersion." So, where the word baptism or baptize is used in Scripture, it could be accurately read as immersion or immersing. Now, often this is referring to immersion in water, as we call baptism today; however, I do not believe that is always the case. For instance, let's replace the words baptism and baptize with their English translations in the passage you quoted... 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were immersed into Christ Jesus were immersed into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through immersion into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. Now, this is debateable, but it does not seem to me that this is talking about immersion in water. In fact, each time that it says immersion, it says what it is immersion into. They are immersion into Christ, immersion into His death, and immersion into death, but not immersion into water. I believe that this passage is simply saying this, when we were saved we became immersed in Christ. But, not only that, we were immersed into His death, and we must die to ourselves accordingly. Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 6:05 am
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 7:17 am
Of course God has given the church leaders authority. But the sovereignty of the Word of God is prevalent in the Bible. The question I have is how does the church justify having power over the Bible to interpret it or add traditions that are "as important" as the Scriptures?
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 8:43 am
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 8:55 am
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 10:48 am
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 10:59 am
Amiruni All of the sacrements can be proved by evidence in the Bible, CATHOLISM DOESN"T CONTRIDICT SCRIPTURE! The church that I am talking about, is the one that is a direct line of Peter. The baptist churchs or any other protestant church is lead by a minister, who is not from the line of Peter. And what are you refering too that I might disagree with about the church's teachings? what if? It hasn't yet so I will keep believing. What the church teaches is what the bible says, but interpretation is everything and that is the job of the church, or it something it not specifically mentioned to come to a conclusion on what to do. I, along with many others, beg to differ. Many Catholic doctrines directly contradict Scripture. These include doctrines regarding the sacraments, Mary, the papacy, purgatory, prayer to the dead, etc. http://www.carm.org/catholic.htmhttp://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160cont.asp
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Reply
