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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:06 am
Okay, this post is from something I posted on SasuSaku vs NaruSaku, so it's meant to be a bit leinant and open for NaruSaku debate. Most of my posts in thsi thread will be from there. Quote: 181: It may seem kind of strange ... but it seems almost as if when Sakura mentions the first time she and Sasuke actually spoke after the three man teams were decided and how angry he was, I want to interpret it as Sasuke denying he had ever been that way-- showing he knows he's changed. He doesn't want to admit that he's hurt her, or anyone else, by being so cold. I think Sakura realizes that Sasuke's undertone is stating "Let's forget that ever happened", because she later states: Sakura: Yeah, I guess your right. That's all in the past. A subtle hint to Sasuke's soft spot for Sakura is the fact that instead of simply walking off while she proclaimed her love and made her promises, he stood there and listened. He didn't interrupt her, and he didn't walk away. He listened. Then he turned around with a grin, and told her she really was annoying. I think that he said this because she was tempting him to stay-- I think she was tempting him a lot. She promised they'd have fun, that he'd never be alone... all the things Sasuke's been lacking since the massacre. Despite his want to deny it, that's something he needs, something he craves. And she was willing to offer it to him. I think that's why he thanks her before he knocks her out and set her on the bench. He's thanking her for caring about him; he's thanking her for being so willing to sacrifice everything for him. He's thanking her for trying so hard to keep him in Konoha, to keep him with her; it's a devotion he hasn't felt before. I'm sure in a sense it's very comforting; but he had made up his mind. So despite the tempting offers she proclaimed of taking her with him, or staying there, he left her behind on a bench with a thank you. 183: First things first: Shikamaru's comment to Sakura-- "I heard the story from the Hokage. I'm sorry, but I can't take you on this mission. Even you couldn't convince Sasuke, right?" You can call me stupid, but having this come from a genius shows that in someway, Sakura is important to Sasuke. The wording of 'even you couldn't convince Sasuke' shows that somehow, she was the only one with the power to make Sasuke stay in Konoha. For someone to have that kind of power, she has to mean SOMETHING to him, obviously more than his relationship with Naruto (whom he sees as a brother and as his best friend). If Sakura's potential at keeping Sasuke in Konoha is greater than Naruto's, then what does that say for Sasuke's feelings toward her? I'm not instigating love, since we haven't seen or heard Sasuke's real emotions (simply the ones dripping with hatred and anger toward Itachi). But it is obvious he must hold her somewhere close him, and he can't be that good at hiding it if Shikamaru picked up on the hints. Naruto tells Sakura that he understands her feelings for Sasuke-- as they seem unrequited-- and this is backed up with a flashback from the time he cloaked himself as Sasuke to get close and talk to Sakura about what she felt for him. Then he promises to bring Sasuke back, no strings attached. Sakura thanks him, which is something she'd never done before, and admits to herself that Naruto has always understood her, and always tried to help her-- including with her issues with Sasuke. He has stepped aside numerous times so she could get closer to him-- and now she realizes just how much of a help and how good of a friend he has truly been to her.
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:09 am
Original post from NaruSaku fan: Quote: OK, lets get one thing straight, and since we have nice people here I'll be more relaxed. But its like this, just because Naruto, would say choose Sasuke. Doesn't mean Sakura would. Look didn't the man just try to kill them both in the last Arc. Sasuke is and has been a character that doesn't want anyone. He's hellbent on his mission to kill his brother by any means necessary. He if he does even in the slightest love anyone besides himself, he wouldn't let those feelings get in the way of his mission. Killing his brother is the only thing he wants to do with his life. I know what you're gonna say. "hey in the begining, he mentioned killing his brother and restarting his clan." And my reply to that is simple. That statement was made by a young naive Sasuke. Yeah, he'd naturally want to restart his clan because he'd be the last after Itachi was killed. That was when he thought his task was rather simple get stronger, be the best and then kill Itachi. That was before the thorough beating he took, from Itachi, when they both were searching for Naruto. Sasuke realized that, his goal wasn't simple. He'd have to get his hands dirty, he'd have to be colder, merciless, to achieve what he wanted. Even if it meant abandoning his clan's village and becoming an enemy. The moment Sasuke left Konoha, was the moment that the naive innocent Sasuke died. Regardless of what happens, he's not gonna be able to go back. And most likely he'll end up dying while trying to kill Itachi. Its not to say that in the very last moments of his life he might redeem himself, let on that Sakura and Naruto's friend isn't truly dead. But things can't go back to the way they were in the begining of the series. Besides, Sakura's feelings have changed anyway. Hasn't anyone noticed that since the begining of part 2, that Sakura isn't the same girl we left at the end of part 1. She's smart, more attractive *^^*, and more sure of her self worth then ever before. And her view of Naruto has changed dramatically too. Of course she knows he'll forever be an idiot and sometimes a pervert. But she's realized how much of a struggle his life has been, when she found out that Naruto has been housing Kyuubi all this time. She's looked at how the people of Konoha have treated him all this time and the fact he's still willing to smile and laugh it all off. That alone has impacted her view of him. And frankly I'd say that puts Naruto about even now in Sakura's heart with Sasuke. That's why the girl constantly saying she wants to protect them both, be stronger so she can fight for them instead of the other way around. Now, the situation that was stated, when everyone assumed that Naruto would be ok regardless, that's sad. Because Naruto's been ok, all his life. If anything that boy needs to be happy. Happy or die saving everyone, which I think I see Sasuke doing later on. Response by me: Alright, you have quite a few awesome points. I congratulate you. *claps loudly* Awesome job! So please dont' hate me for what I'm about to say. First off, I didn't like how you characterize Sasuke as 'innocent and naive' before he left Konoha. He definently was neither. It's hard to be naive when you saw the amount of death he had seen, when you'd been betrayed the way he did. That also practically strips away his innocence. Beside, any ninja loses their innocence in a sense-- they're trained to kill people, that's their job. How is that innocent? All ninja lose their innocence when they join the Academy-- they accept the fact that they're chosing a lifestyle that will involve tons of violence, death, and murder. That shattered the innocent thought about any ninja. Anyway, back on track. The way you stated Sasuke's departure bothers me, and the fact that you said he had no love for anyone but himself. That is a completely falsified statement. Sasuke does care for other people-- if he didn't, he wouldn't be hellbent on revenge in the first place. He loved his family and his clan-- they were taken away from him. That love nurtured the hatred within himself. Beyond that point, when he left Konoha, he didn't just say 'Okay, I'm leaving.' as if it wouldn't affect himself or anyone else. Sasuke spent the entire day trying to decide if he really wanted to leave behind the friends he had made and the people that became important to him. That's called love. He loved these people, but the real battle was, who did he love more? His new found friends, or the people who raised him and were killed by his brother? That was the deciding factor for his depature. I don't see Sasuke's character as uncaring or having a lack of love-- he just doesn't show it as blatanly as everyone else. Also, we cannot just ASSUME Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have changed. He was the motivation for her to become stronger (as he was for Naruto to become stronger). She hasn't stated her position on Sasuke yet-- but the fact that she was pissed upon 'seeing' Itachi because 'he's the one who makes Sasuke-kun suffer', she punched Sai and stated 'If you talk bad about Sasuke-kun once more, I won't go easy on you.', she was the first to attack Sai (she pinned him to a wall and chewed him out) because they discovered his mission was to kill Sasuke, and she still cried after seeing him. I don't think this means her feelings for Sasuke have changed. The fact that she wants to defend both Naruto and Sasuke isn't different, either. In the forest of death, during the scene where she cut her hair, she was saying to herself about how she needed to protect both Naruto and Sasuke, and she needed to fight to save them, which is the same mindset you pointed out in Part 2. All in all, Sakura's character hasn't changed, and we have no proof that her feelings have changed, either. She has, yes, found a way to understand Naruto better, but she still treats him the same as before-- with some of Sasuke's old 'push off' behaviors (such as the 'date' comment from Naruto, and said said 'If we have that kind of time, we should be studying jutsu'). In a sene, all three members of team 7 are hellbent on becoming stronger. This goes to show that it isn't just Sasuke who's seeking power-- all three members turned to Legendary Sannin's to become stronger. They're all the same in that respect. In the situation at hand from this particular thread, I don't feel as if Sakura could choose who to save, irregardless of what was said from either character.
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:17 am
Part 2 Evidence: Crystal Renee = My Post: Quote: I'll start off with SS, since that seems to the pairing lacking the most moments/facts. 1- Sakura just finished training for 2 1/2 years with the sole purpose to become a better ninja so she could help Naruto BRING BACK SASUKE. 2- Hearing his name still upsets her during the bell training. 3- On the trip to find Gaara, she relays all the information she had been studying about Akatsuki, Sasuke, Itachi and Orochimaru. This shows how dedicated she's been to finding Sasuke-- and her goal, TO BRING HIM BACK. 4- Upon seeing Itachi, she links him with being the one to cause Sasuke pain (I've also read interpretations where they included Naruto, but some don't). 5- When we see Sai poking fun at Naruto, she does nothing. But after listening to his comments on Sasuke, she goes out of her way to punch him hard enough to make him go flying, and then say "You don't need to forgive me. If I hear you say something bad about Sasuke-kun again, I won't go easy on you." 6- She was the first one to stand up and sream at Sai for his true mission-- killing Sasuke. She ran to him, pinned him to a wall, and started chewing him out. I think this shows a very protective and dedicated streak in Sakura we saw in Part 1 still being illustrated in Part 2. She's still strictly dedicated to finding Sasuke, and defending him in any way she can. This illustrates the fact that she still hold STRONG FEELINGS for him. No one can say love (on either side), because she hasn't stated it. IchaIcha: Quote: Cover titles count? If so... Crystal! You forgot some! 7- Ch 265: "Chiyo and Sakura; the power to dicover a new path and beyond. The power to find you." -I'll repeat that last one in japanese "Anata o miidasuta wa no wakara" (did I translate that correctly? The RAW scans are blurry! Its hard to read the furagana!) It didn't really make sense when I read over it, but the bolded word is my main focus! I'm guessing that "anata" was refering to Sasuke. Who else would Sakura be refering to? Anyway, you notice how Sakura always tends to call Sasuke "Sasuke-kun" even when she directly speaks to him. "Anata" would be the first time she has called him anything differently. And "anata" is the same as saying "you" with more respect. The its mostly used when a person has special feelings towards somebody. "Anata" can also be translated to the word "dearest". Maybe that chapter cover implies that some pink haired chick feels (still) has feelings for some b*****d with an easy access robe on 8- Her speech towards Sasuke can portray that her feelings are unmoving or stationary. Although, some people think that ch 311 was the end point that degraded SasuSaku from the "possibility" list. (re-quote:"Using suffixes such as "San" or "Kun" you will remain distant from that person, you will never go beyond any emotional development") Part one development literally destroys that statement, if anybody tried considering Sasuke's character. 9- Sakura also seems to be taking in a lot of influence from Sasuke as well. Phoenixblood (my goddess!!) Quote: While it doesn't denote it in and of itself, I've heard girls call the guy they like/their bf's by "-kun". As you say, a lot of the pronouns/suffixes (or lack thereof) are used both to signify distance, as well as closeness, depending on the situation. To dertemine the meaning behind it, you have to look at not only the context of the situation, but the relative "levels" of the two people in conversation. And as I keep saying, in Naruto, the mode of address used rarely changes from the very beginning despite development of the relationships between people. If there's a change, it's to make a point. Otherwise, from what I can tell, Kishi just carries them over from what he initially used to set up the relationship and help define the character. For example, Oro addresses not only Sasuke with "-kun", but also Naruto, because he uses a more polite form of speech than most of the characters in the series, so he tends to use the suffixes that fit that politeness of speech rather than showing respect for Naruto. Also keep in mind that the characters in Naruto are not nearly as polite as the Japanese actually are, as is often the case in anime/manga. They often don't follow the complex rules of politeness, often drop suffixes, and you often even have female characters using the male speech (most likely to show their tomboyishness, or that they're spunky, something like that); however, I've never heard that speech used by a woman in person. It would not be a step backward in the sense that she never changed her address from the time she didn't have respect for him (and therefore doesn't attach "-kun" or "-san" to his name). It would more be an unnecessary step that she could skip - that would be a better way to describe it I think. But like I mentioned, Kishi doesn't seem to really change the mode of address except when he wants to make a specific point (i.e., Sakura adding "-san" to Lee's name, or Sai wanting to drop "-san" to express wanting to become closer of friends). Sakura adding "-kun" at this point to show respect/care wouldn't fit with Kishi's style as that's something we already know has happened. (And I am by no means an expert at this social construction, so if anyone know better or more, please feel free to add or correct me).
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:20 am
Sakura's Character Arguments Phoenixblood: Quote: All right, I am very lazy about typing things out, so I'm going to copy and paste tonight. Anyway, here are some of my thoughts and theories on Sakura's character: Now, I’ve heard some people claim that Sakura is meant for Naruto because he would have given her the exact compliment she was looking for (about her forehead). This is a good thought, but mine goes in a different direction. I think the last thing Sakura needs is someone to simply compliment her – this does not push her to become strong. Nor does this help her to resolve her actual issue with her self-confidence, which we later see was present from way back in her childhood. Basically, a compliment doesn’t get to the root of a problem this deep, and it only works while someone is still there to compliment her, but fades in absence (otherwise it wouldn't still be an issue, I would imagine). I feel that this is a problem that can’t be solved with simple compliments, that it is a safe claim to make as we’ve now seen twice her self-confidence plummet, particularly the second instance (right before the chuunin exams and in chapter 297 even after she’s grown so strong and useful a fighter that she should have no trouble realizing it had she not a deep-rooted issue). These are the only times she exposes it. The rest of the time, she’s probably hiding her true feelings (of insecurity?), as pointed out by Ino when they were kids. I also guess this to be the reason why Sakura developed her crush on Sasuke in the first place. It wasn’t because he was the most popular and the boy who all girls had a crush on – as proven by her surprise at her friends’ guess of who it was. Rather, I think because he was always the top student in the class, she might have felt that if she could get his attention, if she could impress him somehow, that then she could finally feel confident in herself. Of course I don’t believe this to be a solution, just what I think her thought process might have been. The Chuunin exam arc is where we finally see some major development of Sakura’s character. It reveals her backstory (which I already discussed partially), shows her decision to become strong for others, and shows resolution of her need to prove herself strong compared to Ino – a need I feel to improve her own issues of self-confidence, as well as for Ino to show that befriending her hadn’t amounted to nothing. Again, though, she looks to a concrete accomplishment (defeating Ino in battle) to measure herself. However, instead of this solving her issues of self-confidence, she sets a new measuring stick of helping others. This later truly becomes a source of strength for her, definitely, but also something concrete that she can measure failures by. She still has yet to embrace that it’s not what you accomplish that determines your worth. This is also the first where Sakura shows her insecurities. I think she feels them often, but hides them, as Ino had commented that she hides her true feelings. Now, some think Sasuke was just plain being mean when he told Sakura that she was lower than Naruto. Keep in mind, though, that this takes place right after the Wave Arc where a similar insult worked really well with Naruto. I think part of it might have been trying to motivate her to be stronger. Perhaps because the words came from the person she was measuring herself against, or maybe because she had seen how she hadn’t actually helped at all in the Wave Arc (and we see how she uses her accomplishments to measure her worth), but instead of motivating her, it only brought out her insecurities. However, Sasuke takes notice of her reaction/mood (his thoughts show that he notices her behavior is off), and this time tries a compliment. But it’s not just a simple compliment, but one that brings to her attention something she is good at – intelligence. This, I feel is more effective because it addresses her insecurities in the very manner that she does herself: accomplishment. And instead of just telling her that she’s talented, he gets her to admit her own ability. (I’d also like to point out that Kishi made a panel of Sasuke smiling after he says that, and then one of Sakura taking notice of it - just helps show the intentionality of it I think). Naruto is seemingly oblivious to this exchange as well as the reason for it, but I still love him! Now, I wrote all of the above before I had ever seen anything of the databooks. I was actually surprised when a lot of what I had proposed could be found in Sakura's entry in the databook 2. The following is what I wrote on the subject then after having read her entry, along with a little extra on the events transpiring at the end of Part 2: I keep hearing reasons of how Naruto is better for Sakura because he encourages her all the time whereas Sasuke only did it once, and also criticizes her - I think I can do the same thing, only while using the databook to back me up. Before I read the databook, I said how Sasuke is actually what Sakura needs because she needs someone to not just shower her with compliments - she tends to hide her real feelings, so compliments aren't going to hit the root of her problem - she needs to face reality, and have someone be realistic with her to help her do that (yes, criticism can be a good thing). And here's what it says in the databook (all courtesy of Inquisitive's translation): QUOTE Only after Sasuke, on whom she had always leaned on, leaves does she begin to face her true self. (Pic of Sakura leaning on door) "Gone..." It wasn't until she had to face reality of the situation and herself that she was able to find her own strength internally to make the decision to train under Tsunade. We saw a little bit of this in the FoD when she took the first step then. Naruto's compliments/encouragement would never have motivated her to do this - he can't help her with this problem, especially since he's oblivious to it. Whereas Sasuke was at least aware of it and intentionally helped - and it did boost her confidence because he got her to admit herself her own ability to see through genjutsu. While Naruto did help during the Ino-Sakura fight, I don't think he is aware of her lack of confidence so it wasn't as specifically intentional as Sasuke's was imo. It also mentions in the databook 2 how it pains Sakura to lose a teammate, especially when it's a person she loves (literal translation = beloved person). And then later it mentions how Naruto is someone she can truly rely on and gives her hope. I've heard it argued that Sasuke leaving gave Sakura a reason (pain) to be strong, but it was Naruto who gave her the strength to do so (horrible paraphrase, don't feel like finding it) - but the way I see it, having it that way makes team 7 more connected - this way it shows how they all need each other to not fall into the same fate as the Sannin (whereas after Dan died, Tsunade just kind of gave up). But even though Naruto gave her hope and proved someone she could rely on, he's giving her hope and stabilization to rescue Sasuke herself (and help Naruto do it) instead of not being able to do anything - and not something along the lines of realizing he's the person she could always rely on unlike Sasuke who abandoned her and caused her pain, so she's going to start falling for Naruto (imo). And while chapter 319 isn't difinitive proof of this, it certainly doesn't hurt my case either that this is the dynamic implemented between them, and that it is still intact. My post: Quote: PB, I apologize if I repeat anything you've stated in your LAP (I'm going to be weird and read it after I post... instead of using it help my own post. Yes, I am insane.), but I figured I might as well get the raw details of my own support outward. This is my perception of Sakura from the beginning and to the end of her appearance and 319. Be forewarned, this may even out do PB's LAP in length, since I'm taking everything step by step. Sakura is a very complex character with different layers-- she is also the only character with humanisitic flaws and faults, which is why I think so many people hate her-- out of all the characters in the story, I think Sakura reflects the imperfections of humans best. When we first see her, it seems like she is completely sure of herself, and that she knows what she wants out of life-- she seems to be very confident in her skills and her smarts. The first things that should have ticked to show this was a farce is her lack of friends-- if you can still consider Ino a friend, that's about all she has. She has a judgemental attitude and a fairy tale dreams. Who doesn't? I know, at 18, I still have daydreams and hopes concerning the boy I love-- no matter how farfetched my thoughts my be, they still exist. I won't lie and say I don't judge people, either-- there isn't a person on the planet who hasn't passed judgement on someone before truly getting to understand them. Which are, ironically, the two major aspects of Sakura's character that everyone seems to hate-- the fact that she's human. Her crush on Sasuke appears to be fueled by her rivalry with Ino-- which truly, it's her rivalry with Ino which is fueled by her crush on Sasuke (and her pride to no long walk in Ino's shadow, but by her side and eventually surpass her as a kunoichi). This is where the 'shallow crush' comes from-- although you could say the same about Naruto's crush for Sakura, considering he thinks she's a 'total babe'... stating toward appearance. He didn't understand her when he started liking her, the same as she didn't understand Sasuke. Another aspect that seems to be hated is her 'uselessness'-- which really, think, isn't her fault. How can you blame Sakura for not fighting or for being weak when she isn't given the chance to fight? She was trained from the beginning to rely on the men in her 4-person team, whether she wanted to or not. The first chance she really had to be included in battle-- when the Demon brothers appeared-- she had her kunai and stance ready to attack, when Sasuke ran in front of her. After this, we discovered that she was the best with chakra control on her team-- what she already knew took Sasuke and Naruto days to achieve. When the battle on bridge began to take place, Kakashi didn't want her out of his sight-- he trusted Sasuke to fight Haku on his own (which then ended up with him trapped inside Haku's bloodline limit), and then decided that Naruto had a better chance with Haku (who had already basically defeated Sasuke) than Sakura would have if she tried to hold of Zabuza. Which, in and of itself, makes some sense-- but at the same time, hindered Sakura was from fighting at all during the battle. She ended up standing off to the side doing the nothing the entire time. Obviously, she was taught through these actions to stay in the background, which I think probably contributed quite a bit to her next character flaw- low self esteem. Although she seems to be pretty confident, we found out she doubts herself quite a bit (one of her reasons being she does the least on all the missions, although, as I pointed out, it wasn't her fault), and that she knows she's not as great as she makes herself out to seem. Although she has acknowledged this fact, ironically, the only person to notices her down in the dumps mood is Sasuke-- Naruto doesn't realize it in the slightest. So with a confidence boost and compliment from Sasuke, she gets the courage to enter the Chuunin exams out of her own free will. During the Chuunin exam, we find out just how smart she is with the written exam. Sasuke doesn't know any answers-- it's Sakura, and the rest of the Chuunin disguised as Genin who know the answers. Of course, she doesn't realize she's mentally on par with ninja who are in the rank she is attempting to obtain-- but it is a small tidbit of information for us to tuck away. Now, we see a very different side of her as the final question comes into play during the written exam-- selflessness. After hearing that a failure on the final question will strip everyone of their genin title and they will never allowed to be ninja, Sakura deals with an inner battle concerning Naruto's dream of becoming Hokage. She wants him to reach his goal, and is willing to sacrifice her face in front of her team and the rest of the people at the exam to be sure he gets that chance. Of course, this is also a good example of how she doesn't understand Naruto's character-- he is far too determined to win to give up there. Once we get to the forest of death is when things start to change drastically. In the beginning she doesn't do much fighting, but at the same time, she wasn't being attacked either-- expect for when Orochimaru paralyzed her with his vision of death. After that, she actually manages to save both herself and Sasuke by fighting against him to let his hand off her mouth to alert him to the snake he was ignoring in his fear. This is when we first see determination in Sakura, and her willingness to protect and save her teammates. She throws a kunai to pin Naruto to a tree and keep him from plummeting to the forest floor-- which, obviously, takes precise aim, timing and coordination-- if she had just thrown that kunai haphazardly, she would have injured Naruto-- and I'm positive that feat is not something that could have been done by any 'so-so' ninja. The fact that the kunai was embedded deep enough and hard enough to withstand Naruto's weight should give you an idea of how hard she threw the knife. Although we don't see exactly how Sakura gets Naruto and Sasuke out of the forest canopy, I believe it is safe to say there was quite a bit of work involved on her part. First off, she needed to get Sasuke and Naruto out of the forest canopy-- unpin Naruto from the tree, and then carry both of their unconscious bodies down. After that, she had to scout out a safe place to hide out for the night-- obviously somewhere near a river, since she had wet rags to place on Sasuke's head over his fever. She also took the time to arrange some traps for added protection-- all without the help of anyone else. They're important shinobi skills that shouldn't be overlooked. It was at this point that Sakura was the most desperate out of the entire series-- she had two unconcious people on her hands, and since they always protected her, she wasn't sure what to do. It was now up to her to find shelter, a safe place to hide, set up a defense, make sure they were near water and had the ability to escape if needed, and then take the time to keep a close eye on both boys and then have the mental capacity to be able to fight should the need arise. There was a lot of growth for Sakura in this scene-- and she actually adjusted to the role pretty fast and aptly for someone who was always protected and sheltered from the reality of being a shinobi by her teammates. That was the first step to her growth. When the Sound ninjas attacked, Sakura was left with yet another person to protect-- Lee. With three injured shinobi as her responsibility to protect from 3 ninjas who were, without a doubt, far more capable of fighthing that she was, I'm surprised she actually found the courage to grab her kunai and cut herself off from one of the things we learned she cared about the most-- her hair, and her appearance. At that moment, she stopped being selfish. She stopped being superficial. She stopped being obsessive over Sasuke in an insincere fashion-- because the whole reason she'd grown her hair out was for him. This was when she truly bloomed into a kunoichi-- because she learned to sacrifice in order to protect those who were important to her. After this, although she was no where near capable of defeating any of these Sound nin, she fought. She kept trying, and she allowed herself to be injured, beat, and hurt in order to keep them from hurting the people she was protecting. This was a HUGE step forward for her character in every since of her personality and development-- many things changed in her life at that moment. Another point to say with this scene is her change in opinion of Lee. Originally, she had a very biased vision of him due to, yes, a very superficial opinion of 'good guys'. She immediately disliked him because of his appearance-- but after watching him fight to protect her, Sakura gained respect for Lee-- and eventually ends up protecting him from criticism from Naruto. This is another piece of proof that she lost the superficial facade and started accepting people for the qualities they held and not the outward appearance. This is later further proven by her buying flowers for Lee when she visited him or stopped by his room in the hospital-- where as, she would probably not have thought twice about visiting him or watching to see that he was getting better. It's during her fight with Ino that we see her final transition-- we learn that her crush on Sasuke had not started out as a 'fad', because she didn't know anyone else had a crush on him, nor that Ino did. We see the stupid decision she made to become rivals with Ino over Sasuke, and how it evolved from Sasuke to having the ability to surpass her and become a true kunoichi-- to surpass someone she looked up to and had pulled her strength from. She was surpassing the first person who ever protected her and helped her. She made a bold stand by saying she was not going to fight over Sasuke, and that she wanted it to be a fair, all out fight. Seeing that she tied with Ino and had the ability to nullify Ino's main attack proved that she had developed, grown and was at par/better than Ino at that point. It is also the start of their friendship returning-- the minute Ino told her she couldn't believe she had tied with Sakura and then handed her back her headband was when both girls began to see each other in a new light and began to regain the friendship both thought was lost (yet they both held dear and close in their hearts). There isn't much development for Sakura between the prelimanary and final Chuunin exam-- but during the final exam, we see how she's grown concerned for both Naruto and Sasuke. She realizes the danger of the curse seal, dispite Kakashi's promise that it was alright. We also discover another one of Sakura's strenghts-- Genjutsu. Considering she was able to notice the danger coming and release the jutsu while the rest of the crowd, sparring Jounin, ANBU and Shikamaru, were bound in the spell, we saw that she had a keen eye for genjutsu attacks. This is also the first time Kakashi trusts her with a mission-- A ranked mission-- of finding Sasuke and bringing him back. She gathered Naruto and Shikamaru, and they were sent out on a mission that probably would have killed them had it not been for Pakkun and his nose. With Sound nin all around, Gaara's Shukaku form unfolding, and Temari and Kankuro on the lose, it was definently not the safest mission. This is where we see the defining point of Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, in my personal opinion. If her feelings for Sasuke were truly false, then she wouldn't have jumped in the way of Gaara's attack. Naruto wanted them to run because he was scared; Sasuke had already been injured and was incapable of battle. She knew both of them were stronger than her; where as she would have normally sat to the side and looked on in horror, she jumped in the way, kunai poised for attack with a large scowl on her face-- there was no fear in her eyes, only determination and anger. Had she not had genuine feelings for Sasuke, she would have stayed off to the side or just screamed for him to move. But she didn't. She took the brunt of the attack, obviously knowing there wasn't much that she could do. This is also the turning point of her offical opinion of Naruto. When Sasuke tells her it was Naruto who saved her, she looks toward Naruto with appreciation-- obviously accepting the fact that he had grown, and being thankful he hadn't given up during the battle with Gaara. There is a new found respect for someone she had stated originally as detesting-- again, a new step out of 'superficial'. Our next scene involves the hospital-- where we see her buying flowers and bringing them daily to Sasuke's room. This isn't obsession-- and even Tsunade does not precieve it as much. I think the comment on the flowers being picked on different days and that meaning Sakura had been there every day was to show her loyalty and concern for Sasuke outside of the 'superifical crush' everyone seems to believe she had. She spent hours with Sasuke, no doubt wondering if he'd live and trying to figure out ways to help him out. Her gratitude to Tsunade for coming to help and then her tears upon Sasuke's awakening show deeply rooted emotions of all sorts in her character, and somehow makes me feel as if she's matured emotionally and mentally by this scene. Nothing too character-changing happens again until Sasuke's depature. She ends up doing something for Sasuke's own good and breaking a promise to him to tell Naruto about the curse seal-- something he hadn't been aware of, even after seeing Sasuke covered with the marks during the Gaara fight, and it's appearance during the Chuunin preliminary matches. Then, with a better understanding of Sasuke that she's gained through being his team member (and again, something Naruto didn't realize), she goes to the street Sasuke will have to take to leave the village, and intercepts him there (with the arguement of Sasuke being closer to Naruto and he and Naruto understanding each other better, the fact that Sakura knew he was going to leave and Naurto didn't kind of blows this out of the water-- only Sakura realized that Sasuke was leaving), and starts talking to him. She admits that she knows Sasuke isn't too fond of her and gives her reason why (which he denies), and then she starts telling him about the things Team 7 did, tells him that she loves him. He tells her she's annoying with a smirk, and it is after he starts to walk away that her desperation falls into play with the threat to scream out loud. When she wakes up and is alone on the bench, she ends up begging Naruto to bring Sasuke back after Shikamaru says he can't bring her on the mission because her part was already done and (quote:"Even you couldn't stop him.", which I felt was a foreshadowing of the mission's failure). Here she is completely relying on Naruto, and acknowledging his power outright-- showing her respect for someone she had stated before as 'hating'. It's obvious here that she doesn't hate him, but also that he is the only person she has left now-- and his importance shines through in that. After the failed mission, we see her cover up her feelings and come in to visit Naruto. Again, he doesn't realize she's upset-- he's angry with himself-- but her cherriness ends up rubbing off on him. It is after this we see just how much she had been paying attention to Tsunade's strength and how her determination has affected her-- she requests to become the pupil of the Hokage, despite being told of how harsh the training would be and how she had a great probability of failure. She took the task, and instead focuses her energy and heart into training with one goal: Become stronger to bring back Sasuke. We have the lovely two year gap here, and then we see the new Sakura that has developed throughout the years. Obviously she's matured and has learned to respect people-- she still treats Naruto roughly and hits him quite often, but holds a great deal of respect for him. During bell training, we see just how strong she has become-- much to the shock of Naruto and Kakashi. She is capable of working together with Naruto, where as before she would argue with him. All signs of maturing mentally, teamwork-wise and physically. It is during the Rescue Gaara arc that we see Kakashi and Naruto finally putting some trust into her skills and allowing her to do things on her own (after she proves her medic abilities by creating an antidote to the poison infecting Kankuro) when Kakashi allows her to fight Sasori with the help of Chiyo. Some will say that Chiyo held the strings, but the tactical aspects and the fighting were all done by Sakura. She was the one who was willing to get hurt-- she let herself get poisoned in order to get in for a better attack, she let herself get stabbed in order to protect Chiyo. When poisonous gas was her enemy, she let an explosive tag go off near her to push the fumes away and release her from Sasori's trap-- which, obviously, would have caused a great deal of injury to her body. But she let it happen, with the determination that this was her battle-- this was her chance to prove that she could do something, and that she could win. This was her chance to take a step forward in finding Sasuke and protecting Naruto from the Akatsuki. To this point, Sasori is the only Akatsuki member to be killed-- by Sakura, who was supposedly the weakest character at the beginning of the manga. To give you an idea of just how great of a feat this was-- Kakashi and Naruto chased after Deidara, who admitted that Sasori was stronger than he was. They didn't have the capabilities to defeat Deidara-- who is still alive and in active duty. But Sakura was able to defeat someone stronger than Deidara. This should show just how much she has developed. After this we have the meeting with Orochimaru's spy-- and we see her fall back into her old background character position. She ends up getting the courage to stop Naruto in his Kyuubi form (because she said "We will save Sasuke-kun together!"), and she ends up getting injured and then healing the injuries of the Kyuubi's chakra that were obtained by Naruto. She is able to lie to Naruto and make him believe he didn't cause the injury on her arm-- not letting him know he had hurt her (which, is actually pretty amazing. Jiraiya said he was close to death twice in his life-- when he was peeeping and got the s**t beat out of him by Tsunade, and when Naruto went into the 4-tailed Kyuubi form). It takes Yamato telling Naruto the truth for him to realize she was lying-- again showing how much he doesn't understand her. Another growth point for Sakura is the fact that she was willing to fight Sasuke. Instead of breaking down into tears as soon as she sees him, she realizes she needs to use her own strength to defeat him. When he leaves, we hear her words of "Crying isn't going to help.". She cries too, but that's a major point in her mental development-- she's learned that crying doesn't fix things, but sometimes you need to cry. After this we don't see much for Sakura when it comes to development-- other than her ability to pick herself back up and immediately go back to looking up things that will help them on their next try to go after Sasuke-- the pills. Then we have chapter 319, which supported my suspicions that Sakura is definently not over Sasuke's departure (she's crying over the loss of Team 7/Sasuke, however you wish to precieve it, it's still Sasuke. There is not Team 7 without him), and shows that she's learned to cover up her emotions almost to a tee. This took me about 4 hours to type up XD Hope it helps.
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:40 am
Is Sasuke OOC For Loving Sakura? Kairi.nin And just a note for anyone who cares -- if someone tells you loving Sakura would be an out-of-character thing for Sasuke to do, bring up these moments:
-When he stayed with her until she gained consciousness. -When he began to open up to her. -When he tried to cheer Sakura up by COMPLIMENTING her; and when he SMILED after succeeding. -When he demanded to know who the hell had hurt her, and then fought FOR her. -When he OBEYED her. -When he said "Not even you can stop me." -When he considered Sakura [and Naruto] his precious people. -When he caught Sakura [and looked at her with intensity.] -When he THANKED her.
[There might be more.. if there are, I apologize for not listing them all.]
Do those seem like your regular Sasuke-like actions?
Of course I don't limit Sasuke to being a cold-hearted b*****d like most people, especially since he's shown that he CAN be nice and caring, so.. to me.. loving Sakura doesn't seem OOC at all. :/
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:11 am
More debating posts smile Hospital scene posts: Quote: Quote: QUOTE (Dash @ Jul 19 2006, 02:26 PM) hmm...IMO, the panel with Sasuke does show what made Naruto pause, but I don't think his focus is on Sasuke, who happens to be "looking at Sakura and not pushing her away"...rather, Naruto's focusing on the same thing Sasuke's noticing-> Sakura crying. I always read it as Naruto noticing Sakura really crying (and not letting go like she would during a simple hug) as the reasoning for his pained smile. I think the anime makes it somewhat easier (or clearer) in that you can hear Sakura crying (plus I think they drew it out a little longer). To me, Sasuke just simply looks dazed and/or disoriented - first thing he sees when he wakes u after being mind-raped again by Itachi is Sakura holding him and crying on him...I'd be a little confused, too. I'm still siding with PB on this one (but your interpretation made me stop and think!!). This is just because Naruto knew Sakura had been worried about Sasuke-- he made the announcement when he brought Tsuande into the room, "Dont' worry Sakura-chan, I brought someone good!" Also, it's kind of hard to ignore the fact Sakura was crying you could hear it in her voice when she jumped onto Sasuke to hug him. Naruto had to of heard her crying before he started his comment-- as she was quite loud-- and simply took her tears and tears of relief, which they were. He didn't change his look until after opening his eyes in mid sentence, saw Sasuke (not Sakura's face/her tears). Then he stopped, smiled lightly, and left the room, taking Tsunade, Shizune and Tonton with him. Sakura's crying was loud enough that if Naruto's facial expression changed for that reason, it would have switched before he said anything-- because she was crying before he said anything. When I view the image of Naruto's smile in the manga, it doesn't appear as sad as his smile in the anime did. It almost looks like a 'It's about time' or a proud smile. At least that's what it looks like to me. It looked sad in the anime though Phoenixblood's response: Quote: Quote: QUOTE (Dash @ Jul 19 2006, 03:16 PM) It's not Sasuke he liked, it was Sakura...and to me, if it was Sasuke's expression that was supposed to make him stop, then it should have come before the panel of Naruto and the"...." (the whole cause and effect thing). The fact that it came after, and that Sasuke is looking at Sakura crying still makes me believe that Sakura crying was supposed to be the focus (Naruto never actually sees Sakura's tears, remember, he probably can only hear her), and better explains Naruto's painful smile Except that he could see/hear Sakura crying before he started talking, and THEN he stopped in the middle of it. And the cause I don't think is the panel before, but it is revealed in the panel after for dramatic effect - we are held in momentary suspense at why Naruto suddenly stopped (and it was kept hidden prior because we saw Sasuke from behind in the prior shot of them); it was already know to both us and Naruto that Sakura was crying and hugging Sasuke before then.
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:18 am
Who Deserves Sakura? Debate: Quote: Alright, here we go. I'm almost afraid to say something on the SasuSaku side, simply because I dont' want to make any enemies. I'm not going to create lists or anything, so here goes: Sasuke is a very complex character with a tragic history. Yes, Naruto was ignored and hated by the village. He never knew his parents. He fought so hard to get the friends he has. Naruto has gone through many hardships. But when Naruto started out, he had nothing. All he knew was loneliness; he didn't know the pain of loss. That's what seperates the levels of his pain and Sasuke's. Sasuke knew his family; he loved his family. Itachi was a big part of his life, someone he always strived to be like. So when Itachi betrayed the Uchiha family, that wound itself was severe. Couple that with losing the people you've lived with your entire life and finding yourself suddenly suspended on a journey all on your own... which seems worse? I believe this is why Sasuke's character and Naruto's characters are so different. Naruto is energetic because he wants to create new relationships-- he's not afraid, because he's never been betrayed, and he's never felt lost. Sasuke is scared to cultivate new relationships out of fear he'll be betrayed again. I believe this is why Sasuke has a difficult time opening up to Naruto, or Sakura for that matter. He only knows how to be defensive, and how to hate. It takes a lot out of him to keep himself from cultivating relationships, but it takes just as much out of him to place his trust into someone else. This is why his relationship with Sakura is so rocky. Sasuke, at the moment, is not willingly allowing himself to feel everything that he can feel. From the way he reacts to her (jumping in front her in the wave arc, stabbing himself to save her and himself from Orochimaru in the forest of death, the curse seal taking over his body when he hurt Zaku for harming Sakura, telling Naruto to save Sakura and run away because he didn't want to see another person dear to him die before his eyes, the hug in the hospital after Tsunade heals him from the Mangekyo attack by Itachi....) shows that he not only tries to protect her (mostly on a whim), but taht he was softening up to her. It seems to me that had he not left the village, it would have been possible for himself and Sakura to cultivate a romantic relationship later down the road. There are just steps he needs to take in his own mental development to bring himself to the level that he's ready to place that much trust into someone. I also feel as if Sasuke could use someone like Sakura. She has a personality that is somewhat like Naruto's-- one that helps Sasuke lighten up. I'm not going to lie. Sasuke needs to ligten up and be slightly optimistic sometimes (not egotistical). But that's exactly why he needs Sakura. I liked the statement above about how Sakura is not a prize to be won. I'm sorry if I worded anything like that. It wasn't meant to sound that way XD Quote: Quote: The hug in the hospital scene: Some may argue that Sasuke just woke up, and that's why he didn't force Sakura off of him. But if you looked at his reaction, it was almost as if he simply felt a need for that. He didn't hug her back (of course not, that's too unSasuke-like), but he was just as aware as Naruto that she was crying in relief. He didn't stop her. Tired or not, if Sasuke didn't want the attention, he would have halted it. Naruto's reaction, I agree, is one of understanding and a contentment to step down. Everyone knew Naruto had a crush on Sakura... but I believe that scene was when he realized just how deep her feelings for Sasuke truly were. So he decided to step down; in a way, it seems like he felt defeated, which I'm sure he did. But he was a willing defeatee. Now, as for the argument for the 'Thank You' scene. I do not believe Sakura ever once claims that Sasuke loves her back. Actually, I'm positive she knows its going to be a long road to get him to start admitting feels that deep. But that isn't going to stop her from being honest. She was not being childish, or was she desperate to get him to respond to her in a romantic way. Sakura was tryiing to get him to stay with them, in the village. Her arguments were not simply centered around her. She mentioned Team 7, and many other things, tryign to remind him of the good things he had in Konoha, the people that cared about him and he, in his own strange way, cared about as well. When that tactic didn't work, she tried pulling the lonliness card, reminding him of his pain, and letting him know he would be bestowing it upon her, and in an indirect way (she didn't state it outright, but you can infer it), he'd be doing it to Naruto as well. Her procliamation of love was her last tatic to get him to stay; saying she loves him and then telling him she'd scream. She wasn't desperate to get him to say he loved her. She was trying to get him to stay with them instead of leaving. *back to the original argument* Yes, Sakura did start out shallow. My god, she was extremely shallow. You can't condem her for that, though, or her feelings. Sasuke was the 'unattainable crush', the one that you know nothing about but you felt the need to continue fantasing over. It wasn't until she started having more contact and interaction with him that she truly started learning about his personality, his situation, his beliefs. The perfect image she had painted was tainted, but it didn't deter her feelings. Admitting that he had faults actually made him easier to care for in her respect; how can you really say you love someone that's perfect? It's impossible. No one is perfect. When you admit they have faults, this makes them human, and far more approachable. In part two, Sakura starts to take on a few of Sasuke's mannerisms-- Naruto's 'date' comments in the latest chapter is one example. She says 'If we had that kind of time, we would be learning a ninjutsu'. Sasuke had told her, on one occassion when she asked for a date, that if she had that much free time, she should be training. I don't think this is Sakura trying to be like Sasuke or anything-- I think it's sort of an unconscious way she's keeping his memory alive. After he left, she and Naruto both went off training relentlessly-- which is another Sasuke characteristic. The argument that they are simply searching for him, and he doesn't still affect them is therefore thrown out the door. Wow... I think I went totally off subject there Quote: Irregardless of if this is true or not, we can't say that Sasuke is a bad guy or a bad character or just hate him. Both Naruto and Sasuke have something that helps them grow (in a physical strength sense), as well as curses them. The Sharingan and the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi gives Naruto extra strength, insane amounts of chakra, and naturally increases his healing rate (which keeps him from dying during the fight with Sasuke). But at the same time, he is hated because he harbors the power of the creature that destroyed so many lives of the villagers of Konoha. It isn't something to say so much that they hated him from the start, as they hated the creature within him and feared that it would return to haunt. Naturally, they began to place their distate and hatred upon Naruto. The Sharingan gives Sasuke the ability to predict movements, inflict mental confusion on his opponents, and learn jutsu's at a faster rate since he can copy any attack he sees. But along with this, is the curse of the Mangekyo version. In order to gain the supreme power of the Mangekyo, he will have to kill his best friend-- betray someone who means a lot to him, just as his brother had done. Coupled with his pain from already losing his family (hey, if my brother killed my parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, and grandparents, I'd want to kill him as well), the fact that to reach Itachi's level he'll have to lose another person he holds dear is a draining thing-- emotioinally and mentally. Plus, as was evidenced, the Mangekyo Sharingan may have dastartedly affects (Kakashi noted that Itachi's sight was starting to fail). Different circumstances for them both-- and they're both tragic stories. I do not believe, however, that you can really judge who had the worst life, or who is better off. We can't fathom how either character really feels-- we just know that it's a deeply rooted pain that both keep to themselves and habor. I don't see the difference between Sasuke and Naruto's ways of gaining power-- neither one is taking a harder path. They both have something which increases their ability to master jutsus (Kyuubi's chakra, Sharingan), and both have hardcore will power, and are both being trained by one of the Sannin. When (or if) Naruto masters his control of the Kyuubi's power, he will surpass Sasuke. As long as the Kyuubi remains inside him, Naruto is practically invincible. Sasuke will have limits to how his power can grow. In a sense, they are both very well off-- especially if you compare them to Sakura, the final member of the 3-man squad. The only thing that was special about her was her chakra control-- she doesn't have a special bloodline limit which will help her gain power. She doesn't have an unending supply of chakra. All she has is her will power and determination to become stronger. Out of the three, she is lagging because she doesn't have something to help her along. She is being trained by a Sannin, but that doesn't mean she's gaining special circumstances or natural abilities. She's just increasing what she had by nature. Phoenixblood: Quote: Both Sasuke and Naruto (and a number of other characters) have had tragic pasts - but they were different for Naruto and Sasuke. They share some of it in common, but others different. And there were a number of factors that came into play right before Sasuke decided to leave - running into Itachi, Oro sending the Sound 4 to beat into him how weak he is, Naruto catching up with/surpassing him, probably some effects from the CS, being subjected to Tsukuyomi for the 2nd time. He had a lot of things going against him and wasn't in the most stable mental/emotional state. Now, if you feel Sasuke doesn't deserve Sakura compared to Naruto - that is great for your opinion on the pairings. But for a debate, I prefer to look at how the mangaka handles the situation. How has he dealt with a character straying onto a wrong path? Have there been other characters that have been redeemed and what were the consequences that went with it? Has he presented anything about love? And more specifically the philosophies such as earning or deserving, or freely giving? Things like that. *SPOILERS* I think great examples to look at for misguidance and then redemption are Gaara and Neji. Of course neither of these dealt with romance, but neither suffered severe consequences after their redemption. In fact, Neji began training directly under the Hiashi (Main Branch Head) and Gaara became Kazekage. And Kishi has even changed all the "resolved" villains into gray characters (at least a mini-redemption) - Zabuza/Haku, Gaara, Sasori. I think Kishi emphasizes sypathy for the grayness of characters than a "deserving/undeserving" take on it since a few of our redeemed characters have improved situations since their redemption (which wouldn't be the case because they wouldn't deserve their current happy situations). Either that or they die.
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:23 am
Continuation of Previous Post: Quote: Quote: QUOTE (Hopestar @ Jun 16 2006, 11:01 PM) No you don't and it clearly obvious that Saskura is moving towards Naruto after all that's happen. Who was willing to put themselves on the line for her? who was willing to risk himself getting killed just for happiness? who was always by her side right if she ever is ineed? Who inspire her to become better ninja & person? If not Sasuke then it's definately NARUTO!!! Actually... it was Sasuke who inspired her to become a better ninja, not Naruto. And if we have to get really techinical, her change started the moment Lee came to the rescue in the forest of death. After his fight, she decided that she couldn't hold back. She needed to protect her friends, and she needed to fight too. She couldn't always be protected. That was the first step in her changing into a better ninja. The second part that made Sakura's mind up to become a better ninja was after Sasuke left. When he left, she was lost and didn't know what to do. She knew she wanted him back. After Neji, Naruto, Shikamaru, Chouji, and Kiba returned, she realized she would have to try harder and become a stronger ninja herself before they would stand a chance at bringing Sasuke back. So with that in mind, she asked Tsunade to teach her. She went back and told Naruto that "Next time, we'll go after Sasuke-kun together.". Thus, she became stronger because of Sasuke. Phoenixblood: Quote: Quote: QUOTE (Distrikt_Sikx @ Jun 17 2006, 12:36 AM) I still think that Naruto has the worst past. Sasuke felt love he knew what it was like. The love of his parents, his friends, everyone in the whole town. Naruto was spit upon, hated, beaten (ok I think), and just shunned. He starved for attention, for love. If it weren't for the Hokage and other little factors, he would have ended up just like Gaara. Instead, he learned that love and recognition can come from becoming the Hokage, from protecting and saving people. Sasuke, he's blinded by revenge and his lust for power. Admittedly, it would be horrible if my whole family was murdered, but at least I had a family. I least I felt love, and felt happy. Naruto is truly strong because he refuses to give into his deep-rooted anger. He is so naive and innocent and believes whole heartedly that he can change his image and people's hearts. And he's right. He's strong because he knows that no matter what you go through, it's important to come out smiling. Let people know that know that everything's fine when it's not. A true leader is one who sacrifices, one who never shows his helplessness and never gives up. Sasuke is not bad, he just follows a different path. Basically, we all love Naruto because he represents what we wish to be. We love Sasuke because truly, that's who we are. I know that if I was Sasuke, I would do the same. I would avenge my family even if I had to hurt others. I wouldn't say that one situation is worse than the other - I think the severity of perception depends on the person's personality. For example, I personally could take growing up alone better than I could grow up happily with a family and have it taken away by the person I looked up to most. But other people are different and may feel the opposite and that growing up in isolation and with animosity is the worse of the two. What we do know, though, is how things turned out, and we also know that in the case of Naruto - (as you also mentioned) he said himself that he could have ended up like Gaara if not for finally receiving that acknowledgement and love. The difference between the two situation, however, would still be that Naruto would have a general hatred where Sasuke has a very specific goal and person - so everything is dumped into that one person. As long as that one person still exists, then the person who caused the pain still exists. For Naruto, having some people acknowledge removes that pain because it's a general one - that's the solution to his problem; it's not the same with Sasuke because he has something specific to avenge, so creating bonds isn't a solution to that, but it can be a distraction (and keep in mind that in the ninja world, avenging one's clan is most likely normal and acceptable, and Itachi is an S-class criminal and so killing him is in line with Konoha's justice system - it is his means he is willing to go through that's the conflict, which includes abandoning Konoha). And I think it was that one person showing back up that had the most negative impact and reversed all the progress he had been making in accepting new bonds into his life along side his revenge, and even putting those precious people above his revenge by being willing to die for them and losing the chance to ever fulfill his revenge. And then I already posted about the other factors that all came into play right before Sasuke's decision to leave. Kishi is not a black and white writer - he writes characters in a way that their choices are understandable in their specific situations. It's still bad choices, but it's not so simple to say, "He messed up, he doesn't deserve X now."
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:25 am
Phoenixblood: Quote: Quote: QUOTE (Tatsumaru @ Sep 21 2006, 08:57 AM) Well, that is a valid interpretation, Icha, but it assumes some things for it to make sense, don't you agree? For instance: - This is assuming that Sasuke's 'cruel past' gives any cause for Sakura (or any of his fangirls) to be disillusioned about Sasuke i.e., would give cause to not like him anymore. Why I don't quite agree with these assumptions: - If you found that this dark, handsome and mysterious idol you 'love' has a dark and tragic past, is that really any reason to stop crushing on him? No, IMO. It was more than just having a dark and tragic past but also Sasuke's reaction to it and that it has made him a darker person willing to do darker things. The fact that he is revenge-driven at first seemed just one more "cool" thing about him to her in the beginning, but she learned the reality of it and Sasuke is not such the perfect top student in the class. We don't know exactly what her initial crush was based on, but I'm sure at least part of what she based it on was shattered throughout Part 1, but also throughout Part 1 she changed in her behavior toward him, which I'll get to in a later part of this post. Quote: QUOTE For instance: - This would also assume that Sakura's self esteem is high enough that she wouldn't be willing to put up with anybody's s**t unless she loved them. Not a crush, not a stupid belief that 'if I persevere, maybe he'll come around'. Love. This assumes that she wouldn't be willing to take the abuse unless she was in love with the guy. Why I don't quite agree with these assumptions: - Half to the entirety of Part 1 in regards to Sakura alone was about her gaining some sort of self-esteem. She starts off haughty, but is quickly cut down to size when the reality of the situation is presented to her by none other than the person whose input she values the most out of her team - Sasuke. She's called weak and annoying, and she comes to realize the validity of that through the missions and generally spending time with her team. The Forest of Death is the first time she even BEGINS to put any stock in herself. I'd just like to point out that Sasuke didn't treat Sakura like s**t, he was reserved and brutally honest; he didn't take advantage of her, he didn't use her to his own benefit, and he didn't put her down so much as just treated her the way he also treats Naruto as well as himself (he is hardest on himself, and also look at the way he was raised as a child and what methods his father used on him - although I think he more adopted this because of the massacre because really, he's more like his mother, the awesome Uchiha Mikoto ). What she and Naruto have to deal with is a psychologically scarred and emotionally broken person, and that takes time, effort, and patience to work through and it's not like there's a guarentee that he'd get better, but that's what they have each put their faith in because of what he's done (positive) for them and also what they've seen in him. Now that I have that off my chest, yes, Sakura's character is about building self-esteem and finding herself....ok, I'm going to have to be honest, I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make. Are you proposing that Sakura put up with Sasuke because of her low self-esteem rather than because she grew to care about him? Yes, in the beginning Sasuke could do no wrong in her eyes, but that change during the chuunin exam, and even though she didn't succeed, she stood up to him several times about his actions (punching the fake Naruto, being scared shitless in front of Oro, wanting him to drop out of the prelims, and challenging his decision to leave Konoha). She stopped just accepting whatever he did a long time ago, and it is after that change that she got to know him, including his darker side, and after she starts addressing her own issues of self-esteem (still incomplete even now though, but progress had been made on a mental level if not yet physical) that we have her professing her feelings and not before. Quote: QUOTE For instance: - According to your post, it assumes that the curse seal would be a big reason to deter Sakura from chasing Sasuke. It assumes that Sakura wouldn't be willing to deal with the curse seal in order to get closer to her idol/teammate/tentative friend. Why I don't quite agree with these assumptions: Now, she's been putting up with Sasuke's bitchyness since day one. The most logical reason for this would be that she idolized the guy, and therefore was willing to put up with it, especially since she never saw herself and Sasuke as equals (unlike Naruto, who Sakura felt she was superior to initally. Also, Naruto never saw himself as inferior to Sasuke EVER. Notice how he never stood to take Sasuke's attitude, though Sasuke's like a brother to him?) To think that 'Okay since she's put up with him for this long, she's gotta love him' isn't necessarily true, especially since Sakura had low self-esteem, and viewed herself as lesser than Sasuke. She was desperate, and stated so in the very beginning, when you could HARDLY call it love. Since love or no, she wanted to be with him regardless, what's to say that she wasn't willing to put up with it in ANY circumstance? - The curse seal is scary, no doubt. But it's not leprosy. It's not the kyuubi. The curse seal only carries a stigma with those familiar with it, and those familiar with Orochimaru. Sakura is neither. Even a carrier of the curse seal is not necessarily ostracized from anything (look at Anko).The curse seal obviously wasn't something that was contagious, it doesn't carry the social stigma of being a jinchuuriki (something poor Naruto knows about all too well), it's not AIDS or any other incurable STD. Hell, it's not even the damn cooties. So why would that be a reason for Sakura or anyone to want to distance themselves from Sasuke at all? For her trying to help Sasuke with the curse seal to be significant, there would have to be a reason why someone WOULDN'T want to help (that someone being a friend or a fangirl). Now she knew the curse seal didn't make him go insane (as cruel as he was, he was still talking and acting like a sane person. Homicidal, but sane), and he didn't attack her under it's influence. So it's not like she charged in without regards for her safety knowing Sasuke couldn't determine right from wrong... wait... ?!... that sounds sorta familiar... where have i seen THAT scene before...? Hmm... so if Sakura trying to stop CS Sasuke when he was obviously in some semblance of control of himself is a sign of her loving him, then how about we escalate the scene to the scenario I mentioned above... ...and replace 'Sasuke' with 'Naruto'? Damn, I LIKE this logic! By that logic, Sakura loves Naruto more than Sasuke. 4TKyuubi anyone? She damn sure did risk her life to try and stop Naruto. And, unlike Sasuke, she KNEW that Naruto had turned into a monster with no control over himself. And didn't care. Also, to be fair, She witnessed Curse Seal 1. Not 2, when he DID turn into a monster. Yet Naruto has NO resemblance to himself in 4TK form. But as much as I like that logic, it doesn't hold water with me, because there's no saying that Sakura wouldn't do that for anyone but someone she loves. I don't think it's because it's like a skin disease that makes him unclean and ostracized by society, but that he seemed to be enjoying inflicting pain on others...I'm sorry, I consider that a bit of a turn off - and so did Sakura since she wanted to stop it along with commenting that that wasn't like himself. So not that I'm really making much of an argument out of this either, but I think there was a danger because Sasuke won't listen to advice he doesn't want to take, and in a state like that who's to say he wouldn't have hurt her physically to show that he wasn't going to listen, BUT we'll never know because he did listen and the seal retracted. And she started off putting up with it because she was blinded by crush, but as she matured, she recognized his flaws and wanted to help with it, not just take it. Quote: QUOTE For instance: - That Sakura is mature about her feelings for Sasuke is an assumption. Why I don't quite agree with these assumptions: - I saw her as immature and rather childish concerning her feelings for Sasuke. It was all 'Sasuke-kun' this and 'Sasuke-kun' that. There was never any thought, any reasoning. No soul-searching, no real examination of her feelings. No 'do I REALLY like Sasuke-kun? Do I LOVE Sasuke-kun? Why do I feel this way?' None of that. Just: Sakura: "I like Sasuke-kun! Sasuke-kuuuun!" Sakura, Sasuke just turned you down for a date for the 25th time! How do you feel? Sakura: "...I like Sasuke-kun... I still like Sasuke-kun!" Sakura, Sasuke just called you annoying and told you to go away for the 5th time straight! What's up with that?! Sakura: Shut up! I LIKE... Sasuke-kuuun.... *sniffle* Uhh, Sakura he just slapped the plate of apples out of your hands and glared at you. What are you gonna do about it? Sakura: I... *sob* like...*sniff* Sasuke... *hic* -kun.... waaaah!!! *sob* (^ the preceding was a humorous exaggeration to illustrate a point. This is a public service announcement.) Point being that we never see her rethink her opinion concerning Sasuke. I mean SERIOUSLY rethink it. EVER. She never comes to grips with who Sasuke really is, and that's not a nice person. She's hung up on his idolization through the whole of Part 1. That just smacks of immaturity. As for the maturity of her feelings, she certainly matured toward Sasuke. She stopped fangirling during the chuunin exam; she stopped trying to get his attention and wanted to do what she could for him (and others); compare her reactions between during the bell test when she found out Sasuke wasn't dead like she thought and after he was mindraped by Itachi and didn't know if he would come out of his coma; meanwhile she was also expanding her focus to also understanding and appreciating others, including Naruto. Now, this could have been a maturing out of her feelings (but growing care for him platonically), or maturing into them; chapter 181, along with her other reactions to his leaving and Naruto's failure to bring him back and some dramatic scenes in Part 2, leads me to believe the latter. We don't get an inner-monologue, sure, but her actions and reactions speak enough for me (not to mention her verbal confession of her feelings). By the way, Kishi hasn't shown to us Sakura asking for a date from Sasuke (well, "working on teamwork") since pre-chuunin, chapter 34 - which means there are 141 chapters between then and their final interaction in Part 1 (since I think a lot of NaruSaku-ers like to bring up chapter spans for some reason ). I believe the other two times she did or was planning to were chapters 3 and 33, and Naruto also asked for "dates" at those time and also got rejected, so couldn't your logic also work for Naruto holding on while being rejected so many times (more actually if you include Part 2 or Sakura beating him up for Konohamaru's "girlfiend" implication). As for the annoying part - well, she was immature and it did help spark her growth, well that's how I read it anyway and I think you mentioned that point as well. I understand it's supposed to be an exaggeration, but I don't think it's a very accurate one because I believe the point you're trying to present is that Sakura would have no reason to fall in love with or even like Sasuke. But there's already another thread for that topic so I won't go into that here.
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:35 am
SasuSaku Dead? Debate: Quote: I don't see how the possibility of SasuSaku is dead. Sasuke has been the forefront of Sakura and Naruto's growth and training for the past two years-- and the two of them were seperated during that time period. In a sense, that could potentially halt the NaruSaku relationship growth, just as it did Naruto and Sasuke's friendship and SasuSaku. What didn't change was their determination to retrieve Sasuke. The first time Sasuke is mentioned after Naruto returns to Konoha, the affects of his name are taboo for Sakura and Naruto-- showing deeply rooted feelings. If I were to guess anything, I would say the feelings the two of them held for Sasuke remained the same throughout the years they trained. He was their-- in a way-- guiding light. As for the SasuSaku relationship, most people have been bringing up Sakura's willingness to attack Sasuke, and his unhindered response to fight her as well. Sakura is determined, just like Naruto, to bring Sasuke back to Konoha-- even if this means fighting with him and attempting to beat the s**t out of him. Sasuke, obviously, isn't going to just let Sakura beat him-- he's going to defend himself and fight back as well. This scene just showed her determination-- with what I believe is fueled by her feelings for him. The second argument is "Sasuke is too far gone for redemption". I don't believe this for some underlying reasons. Sasuke said he was going to sever his bonds, yet again, with Naruto and Sakura. He had a the chance to kill them all-- he could have killed Naruto, Sai, Yamato and Sakura, he he truly wanted to. Instead, all he did was injure them and keep them from being capable of fighting with him (minus Sakura). He had the chance to mortally wound Yamato-- instead, he hit him in a non-vital area. He could have killed Naruto and Sai when they were down, but instead he chose not to. He could have killed or harmed Sakura, but instead he conversed with the Kyuubi. The only reason he had any harmful intent was because she charged at him. If Sasuke was truly beyond redemption, he would have killed them all-- or killed all of them and left one alive to tell of it, something along those lines. When he stated he was willing to give up his body in order to kill Itachi, it was just a repeat of things he said in Part 1. In truth, that shows no change in Sasuke's character. If he is thinking logically, which I hope he is, Sasuke will realize that just because he gives his body to Orochimaru, that does not mean he will be able to defeat Itachi. *shrugs* This is just my opinion. Don't kill me guys. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: surlymoogle,Jun 18 2006, 11:39 AM IchaIcha_sama,Jun 18 2006, 07:41 AM But... looking through this subject in terms of themes, Sakura having to move on implies a slight hint of "giving up", does it not? I don't see it as "giving up," though...I see it as "growing up." Growing up involves growing out of things. By the time she's twelve, Sakura's already been crushing on Sasuke for a few years, no? That's an astronomically long time to carry an interest in someone, when you're that young. (I know none of my crushes at that age ever lasted longer than a single school year; most of them, far less than that. IIRC, twelve is a particularly boy-crazy age.) Sakura at fifteen considers herself a woman, or at least wants to be considered one, as indicated by her comments toward (so clueless!) Naruto upon their reunion. For her to have moved on from a very typically 12-year-old obsession with Sasuke-dreamboat, to perhaps a more truthful perception of him as a deeply f***ed up friend who could use a good hard kick in the pants from her more than any flowery declarations of love...that only says to me that she really has become a woman. IMO, for her to "give up" on Sasuke would be her saying, "Ah, screw Sasuke, just let Oro turn him into a slipcover," which we know ain't about to happen. Giving up her romantic feelings isn't giving up on him--he never returned those feelings in the first place and told her in so many words that he wasn't about to do so. For her to keep clinging to her rebuffed romantic notions in the hope that maybe, someday, in the distant hazy future, Sasuke would change enough to accept them, could only be hazardous to her health--not to mention her character growth. I will not lie. Even as a SasuSaku fan, I have to agree with some of your logic. But along the same lines, I cannot fully agree with everything you've stated, simply because you yourself have stated that Sakura's emotions are open to speculation. This means it can taken from any viewpiont. Backed up with fact and reasoning, anything can fly. So far we've seen the agrument of 'Sakura obviously still cares', and your well thought out response. Now, I'm going to take a different approach. As previously stated, Sakura has not mentioned at all her feelings toward Sasuke. Kishimoto has been keeping that secretive-- almost bottling them up within Sakura's character itself. The first thing I'd like to point out is Sakura's shishou-- Tsunade. Tsunade has felt heartache and pain for those she's loved (her brother and Dan). Her feelings for them never left her, and almost led her to making a horrible decision in terms of helping Orochimaru. Coupled with her own experiences, it is possible that while training Sakura, she found a way to help Sakura keep her feelings for Sasuke off the battlefield. I am sure Tsunade wouldn't ridicule her feelings, but I highly doubt she would have allowed Sakura to believe that was what she was training herself for. With that in mind, I was wondering. Isn't it possible, then, that Sakura has simply put her affections up on a shelf? She knows she needs to focus completely-- and although, in dire situations, she's never been agaisnt giving Sasuke a good boot in the a** to get him going. The best example of this I can think of was in the Forest of Death, when Naruto jumped into the battle with Orochimaru, and Sasuke froze up. She told him "At least Naruto isn't a coward!", which was an insult toward Sasuke. I'm sure that bruise to his ego hurt more than anything else she could have said. Irregardless of being able to whip him into shape before, this does not mean she would be able to do so with words now. I thing this is why, upon seeing Sasuke again for the first time in 2 and half years, she didn't speak. I'm sure, had she said something, she would have been betraying her hard fought for control over her emotions for Sasuke. Seeing him would have simply forced them to resurface; so instead, she took to focus on Sasuke's growth; preoccupying herself. This may also be why instead of barking at him for hurting the rest of her team, she decided to attack him. So, in my opinion, we still do not know exactly what Sakura feels-- but the way she's been acting, I get the distinct feeling she simply pushed her affections and emotions off to the side to complete her mission and put her full attention and strength into her training. This is a plausible reason, is it not? Phoenixblood: Quote: Quote: QUOTE (surlymoogle @ Jun 18 2006, 07:39 AM) Quote: QUOTE (IchaIcha_sama @ Jun 18 2006, 07:41 AM) But... looking through this subject in terms of themes, Sakura having to move on implies a slight hint of "giving up", does it not? I don't see it as "giving up," though...I see it as "growing up." Growing up involves growing out of things. By the time she's twelve, Sakura's already been crushing on Sasuke for a few years, no? That's an astronomically long time to carry an interest in someone, when you're that young. (I know none of my crushes at that age ever lasted longer than a single school year; most of them, far less than that. IIRC, twelve is a particularly boy-crazy age.) Sakura at fifteen considers herself a woman, or at least wants to be considered one, as indicated by her comments toward (so clueless!) Naruto upon their reunion. For her to have moved on from a very typically 12-year-old obsession with Sasuke-dreamboat, to perhaps a more truthful perception of him as a deeply f***ed up friend who could use a good hard kick in the pants from her more than any flowery declarations of love...that only says to me that she really has become a woman. IMO, for her to "give up" on Sasuke would be her saying, "Ah, screw Sasuke, just let Oro turn him into a slipcover," which we know ain't about to happen. Giving up her romantic feelings isn't giving up on him--he never returned those feelings in the first place and told her in so many words that he wasn't about to do so. For her to keep clinging to her rebuffed romantic notions in the hope that maybe, someday, in the distant hazy future, Sasuke would change enough to accept them, could only be hazardous to her health--not to mention her character growth. That maybe an astronomically long time to carry a crush in real life, but not in fiction, and not for this series in particular. And if that were the case, then wouldn't have Naruto given up on Sakura because he acknowledged that she loved Sasuke not him - so over the timeskip he should have gotten over his feelings then, too. But if we take a look at post-time skip, the characters act amazingly similar to at the end of pre-time skip. I'm going to paste something I wrote on another forum because I'm too lazy to re-type it all. Quote: QUOTE Part 2 seems to pick up where Part 1 left off in terms of character personalities and interactions. Examples of this can be seen in how all the character retained their personalities where they had left off (Hinata is still nervous around Naruto, Ino still speaks her mind, Shikamaru is still lazy, etc.) Now at first it seems as if Naruto and Sakura might have changed: Naruto acts mature…until he reveals he’s still the prankster (perverted jutsu); Sakura is nearly impressed…but her usual reaction (violence) pops out from his lack of "change". So basically, they’re picking up where they left off – as friends where Naruto is most likely still trying to impress and protect Sakura while Sakura is learning to respect, trust, and understand Naruto from the starting point of being someone who detested him, as well as fulfill her own determination to protect him. At this point, there shouldn’t be any romantic feelings as we seem to be picking up from the end of Part 1 where she had confessed love for Sasuke, and the "romantic hints" were, by my guess, thrown in simply for humor and an emphasis that things really haven’t changed. So suffice to say, since so many other things were carried over from Part 1, I believe until shown or developed otherwise that Sakura's feeling for Sasuke (as she declared herself - I will get to this next) have also not changed. (and I like Crystal Renee's response, too, about focusing on getting him back and temporarily pushing her feelings to the side - which can also lend itself to a nice emotional climax later on because we're currently left in the dark) Now I'm definitely going to have to disagree on Sakura's feelings developing for an idealized version of Sasuke. I consider real feelings started to develop when the fangirling stopped, which was right around the beginning of the chuunin exam. During that arc, she not only finally admitted to herself that she needed to improve but actually took that step to improve (rather than just chase after Sasuke and berate Naruto like she was better than she was), learned just what it meant for Sasuke to be an anvenger, seeing his weakness in wanting to run from Oro and calling out an insult to chide him into fighting, saw his darkness and learned the lengths he would go to for revenge - this is hardly an ideal picture of someone. And it is during and after this that she stops fangirling and starts really caring. So by the time we get to chapter 181, that ideal image from chapter 3 I think has been long gone from her mind. Also, if she was still so optmistic about him, she wouldn't admit that he probably doesn't like to be around her and that he doesn't confide in her (although he actually has confided in her more than any other character I think) - this also doesn't sound like someone who is looking at someone through rose-tinted glasses. No, I think that scene was actually the most real and vulnerable we ever see her character as she desperately calls out her feelings toward him - not, I don't think, in expecting something in return, but because she can't hold it back in such a dire situation. Also, Sasuke's comment that she is "afterall annoying" - is I don't think a closing of the door forever on any hope for the relationship but a subtle hint that he did in fact remember that first conversation when they became a team despite his initial denial of it - and if he had denied that, then what else might he had been denying/holding back during that conversation? The Sakura who had filled his lonely existence - he could not answer her feelings (paraphrased from databook 2), but I don't believe because there was nothing there, but because he had chosen a darker, lonely path. And if Sakura and Naruto were to give up on Sasuke, yes, then the pairing would most likely be dead (unless something else would come along to knock some sense back into him, but I can't imagine Kishi would do that and even exclude the main character rather than following the theme of teamwork and having it accomplished through his teammates). But because of the strength of Team Kakashi, there is still yet hope for Sasuke's redemption and return, and then maybe we can finally find out what Sakura is feeling during Part 2 and maybe learn a bit more about the reserved Sasuke. I didn't perceive that scene as an ending but an obstacle that is heavily tied in with the plot and objectives of the main characters of the series; and so this relationship not only fits in with and is dependent on the progression of the series (not a distraction and suspenseful), but also follows Kishi's style of even romantic feelings being tied into character development as it is from Saskue's departure, someone she leaned on and considered beloved and thus pained by his leaving, that caused her to face the reality of herself, and Naurto's support as a friend in a time of despair that has launched her development (paraphrased from databook 2). Yeah....hopefully you guys can follow my run-on sentences.....
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:25 pm
Just so we know in advance, I'm working on a SasuSaku Part 2 essay for a joint manifesto being written on the Naruto Forums in the SasuSaku fanclub. The point of my essay is condensign all points and evidence in Part 2 about SasuSaku, and bringin a more realsitic view to some of the "NaruSaku facts" in Part 2 (such as the date Sakura agreed to in the beginning. IF you remember, They were plotting to get kakashi to pay for food before that sine they'd been traning all night and the dya before. I'm assuming it was mid-morning, afternoon. They were hungry. Kakashi left, so all tha twas left was Naruto-- and she said he'd have to pay. She was just hungry and didn't want to fork over the cash herself XD).
Expect it soon smile
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:55 pm
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 1:35 pm
I have seen Sakura's databook information brought up multiple times, but I never, EVER see anything about Databook 2 and Sasuke.
So, I found a translation. I'm copying and pasting a few things here:
Companions Sasuke, who only had power for revenge, becomes stronger because of his companions. His true place would have been a future among them.
Pg 49 Separation Towards darkness. The one to appear before him is Sakura. She confesses to him as he tries to leave without looking behind him. She confesses with a blindingly uncompromising mind that does not want to lose him. The one that filled his lonely existence was Sakura. But he cannot let her in. He leaves with just one word of thanks.
*snickers*
Anyway, yeah. Renee is a retard. Here is a link to the full trans a link to the databook pages. Any thoughts?
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=442
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/kirebaby/044-045.jpg http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/kirebaby/046-047.jpg http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/kirebaby/048-049.jpg http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/kirebaby/050-051.jpg
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