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Hmmm...
It makes quite a good point, I'd say, that nobody cares if they're offered to be saved when they don't know what they're being saved from.

Two things I wanna briefly respond to, though...
1. That God is justified in punishing us for our sins, because our sins are so grave.
Sin is a practically uncontrollable occurance when you're human; everyone sins. This is analogous to a government that punishes everyone because noone's perfect.

2. That my sins really are terrible.
Why are these natural things such 'transgressions', anyway? How am I really at fault for something which I can't help but do?

Another thing;
If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and created the universe, then there is absolutely no way that the universe could turn out any other way than God intended.
So, everything in the universe is intended, including sin.
How can God be just when God allows people to suffer eternally for something which was, essentially, his intention?

But, eh, that was pretty funny... I laughed at the part where he said, "[The modern gospel says]...in other words, 'Jesus will improve your flight'".
Makes you imagine Jesus sitting next to you on the plane. xd

Unless people don't have free will, but I probably don't want to get into that again. (Unless you do, in which case you can go to the link on my sig.)

Why doesn't it? As I said, it just seems like a government that punishes everyone just because noone's perfect.

And another thing: What's the point of eternal punishment? Punishment within society is mainly for the purpose of reconditioning and reformation;
However, this cannot be the case if it's eternal.


So He intended to allow us to sin. And I think you'll agree, it's practically impossible to be human (like God made us) and not sin. This is analogous to intentionally making something which you know isn't going to meet your standards.
It's still quite possible to make it with free will and yet not automatically sin-prone, so why aren't we like that?

Does that make it just?
Do you automatically gain the right to punish others when you become better than them? I wouldn't say so, because your condition doesn't make them anymore deserving.

Why send people to hell for detainment though? Seriously, couldn't the sinners just go to some other afterlife, which isn't filled with torment and such?

That is, unless our circumstances of upbringing make it nigh impossible to avoid. Genetics even play a role in antisocial behaviour. How is that our choice?

This sounds remarkably like a story of a mother who let her child make a choice, in a circumstance when she knew the child was very likely to make 'wrong' choice, then the mother says, "It's your fault, you screwed it up."
Just seems like bad parenting, doesn't it?

Relative unholiness doesn't mean that we deserve such punishment. As I said, it should make absolutely no difference whether or not God is perfect, because the perfectness of God doesn't affect the magnitude of our sins.

Why isn't there a less bloody way of dealin' with sins?
What is wrong with the idea of sending sinners to a non-hell afterlife?

I beg to differ. So far as you can control your sins, your will is determining them; if your will isn't determined by prior circumstances, then it's either variable or random, and it's not-controlled, in either case.

If we were born sin-prone, then we haven't fallen.
Sure, according to biblical stories, humankind has fallen, but the lives of humans in the past are hardly our fault.


Seems like an evasive answer; sin itself seems quite natural, and if it's punishment isn't serving a real purpose, then it's punishment causes unnecessary punishment.


Why? Who is benefitting from the punishment of sin?
What is being prevented by the punishment of sin?


I have never denied that I can choose my own actions.
I have denied that I can choose my choices though.

No, I have argued that noone has free will.

Seems to me that God's standard is impossibly high; we're not God.

Well, you said that 'sin must be punished'.
This essentially means, "It is essential/necessary that sin is punished."
Well, unless the punishment of sin does 'good' or prevents 'bad', I can't see how it's necessary/essential at all!

Also: It's not enough to just say that it does good by being God's will.
God should have reasons, too, y'know. If His reason is that it's necessary because it's His will, that's no reason at all.


I don't think I'm tired of arguing that though.
I just modified the argument again on my thread in M&R, so, if you wanna make any statements about free will t'me, you should disprove that argument.

Oh, yes, and another thing to say about free will, even though it's a little off-topic.
If God is omniscient, people can only have free-will if God knows every possible outcome of every possible decision for every person, which is practically infinite, and so there would be multiple possible futures, any of which could be true, which would make the future unclear for God.

If the future is clear for God and God is omniscient, people don't have free will.

Check this out for some insight on the topic:

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God

Heh, no need to yell.

Justice is basically "fair treatment."
If God is perfectly just, he will treat us exactly how we deserve.

Christianity suggests that we deserve eternal suffering because we fall short of God's perfect standard.

I think that this is wrong because:

1. Standing among dwarves doesn't make ye a giant. 'God's standard' isn't really suitable for humans because it's practically impossible to attain; that doesn't main us worse, the existence of such a standard wouldn't make us more deserving of suffering.

Yes, I already said this. But all you said was, "God created us, and He is in charge. God is the Law, and He sets a perfect standard, which we must follow."
Far as I can see, God creating us, doesn't make him justified in enforcing an unreaslitic standard on us.

2. There's no reason to praise someone for doing something that everyone can do. Likewise, there's no reason to punish someone for not doing what (realisticly) noone can do.
It's like someone walkin' up to you and saying, "Hey, if you don't do a triple-flip blindfolded with one leg cut off, I'll shoot you."
Even if the person who says this to you can do it themself, it doesn't make it any easier for you to do, and doesn't make them any more justified in shooting you.

And so, to reply to your statement, I'm gonna say, "God isn't perfectly just unless he gives a just punishment for sin";

Saying that His punishment is just because He's just because His punishment is just is a circular argument.

It seems like you're saying that 'might makes right'.


I remember that you never fully explained what you were trying to say in a way that I could understand, or vice versa.
As I recall, you weren't replying directly to the argument in a way that exposed a flaw in ambiguity, irrelevence, presumption, or definition, which is what I was looking for.
But you're right, we won't discuss that here.

I'm sorry that I don't have time to reply to the article that you linked to, I'll read it tomorrow.
But I have one more question;
Was hell created by God, for sinners, because He needed a way to punish those who fell short of His standard, or is it just a default that He's never changed?