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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:58 am
Yo preferiria pensar que chavez es socialista , porque solo mira cuantas son las personas que se atreven a oponerse o incluso a enfrentarse a bush, chavez es como un respiro para la latinoamerica oprimida por el imperialismo.
I wanted to write it in spanish because I didn't knew how to organize my ideas in english.....I hope that you understand what I wrote sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:05 am
Kenzu unlike you sovietank, people in the 21st century prefer a gradual and peacefull change.
I support Chavez as long as he stays leftist and democratic. It better to make small steps than making a big one and falling on your face. Yes of course as I said Liberalism.
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:32 am
REDGallenger Chavez's scheme of giving scheap oil, specifically heating oil, is quite ingenious. With this he can say "you know poor Americans, what is your government doing for you? What are your oil companies doing? Look at what CITGO is doing, look at what I am doing!" On the whole it gives the American public a reason to be prochavez and thus hampers the US government's ability to hamper Chavez. He has also announced this deal will head to the UK next year, but the UK is going more left recently. Again it is easier to start revolutions on the bottom of the imperialist chain then at the top which he is trying to do, according to your statement. Is it because with his "nationalism" he believes that since a large portion of latin Americans are within the United States that they are not conditioned and will follow exactly what he thinks with this gesture? The problem is that the United States will have a reactionary revolution before a Soviet revolution and it may happen more then once. We have never seen the Top of the Imperialist chain turn to socialism, without thinking of capital first.
If we have learned anything about history is that dogmatic governments don't go down quietly, and I believe what will happen is a series of Revolutions and counter revolutions for a extended period of time (even more then the early russian revolutions). So to me going strait for the Top of the Imperialist chain, where the people are the most conditioned to believe in the Capitalist system blindly is the most foolish when you have plenty of other countries on the bottom of the Imperialist chain that would have less revolutions and counter revolutions then that of Nations on the Top of the Imperialist Chain.Chavez is a lot like Castro, hell he had close relations with Castro prior to his coup back in the day. First he is a nationalist "Free venezuela from foreign companies.. land to the people" etc.. Then he changes "I am a socialist"... Then he changes again, progressing further and further as it becomes socially acceptable. yes of course land to the people, but lets still have private business, and private property. It takes time granted but this "revolution cannot even be counted as a liberal communist revolution for even they believe that the soviet system takes over and is created from the bottom up not the top down.Through his policies of buying up bankrupted capitalist enterprises and turning them over to workers to run, and by forming farming co-ops, and by taking steps to abolish the institution of rent (by making renters owners after a period of 10 years), and by setting up what are known as "boliviarian circles" which are essentially workers' soviets with a different name. I must deem Chavez to be a socialist. By making "renters owners" ? That deals with private property correct?
Soviets are created from the bottom up same as Trade Unionism. Creating soviets from the top down shows me great concern to chavez's "socialist" revolution because the soviets were not in place prior to him coming to power.
Now I am not a big fan of Castro either but were the soviets created before or after the revolution in Cuba?Chavez also doesn't need to be a dictator because he already effectively is. His party "The Fifth Republic Movement" and its allies in MAS "Movement towards Socialism" and the Venezuelan Communist party hold every single seat in the unicameral legislative house of Venezuela.. The people have spoken and they have virtually installed the dictatorship of the proletariat in every branch of government. They have already made a few constitutional amendments to better make the government an impliment for socialism. Again him and his allies ( other parties not nations) have not created the dictatorship of the proletrait nor even a soviet style of government they seem to still be using bourgeoisie parliamentry type of government.Couple that with ALBA and the PTAs they've been signing (Peoples' trade agreements, mostly between Cuba, Venezuela, and Bolivia) as opposed to FTAs (free trade), you can see they are moving towards socialism, it just isn't happening like one big orgasm.
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:40 am
Handmade Soldier Yo preferiria pensar que chavez es socialista , porque solo mira cuantas son las personas que se atreven a oponerse o incluso a enfrentarse a bush, chavez es como un respiro para la latinoamerica oprimida por el imperialismo. I wanted to write it in spanish because I didn't knew how to organize my ideas in english.....I hope that you understand what I wrote sweatdrop I got the gist of what you are talking about. Again if he is fighting imperialism why is he not going after and supporting other revolutions outside of America if he is so concerned with world revolution? I just find trying to convert the people of the United States without first going after several more nations (not just in South America but in Asia and Africa as well) that are towards the bottom of the imperialist chain. Bolivia I can understand being the "poorest" in the regin but I just don't get why Chavez would give out heating oil to the "poor" of the United States. Also seeing as there oil is filled with sulfur wouldnt that also make refineries even harder to maintain or for there oil to be sold on the global market which is supporting all these social programs to even exist?
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:01 pm
The renters to owners plan is mainly in regards to residential landed property, not so much anything else (capital, factories etc).
Chavez isn't trying to cause a revolution in America, he is just trying to take the heat off of himself.
In Cuba, the workers' councils were established after 1959.
In the Fifth Republic movement things known as "Bolivarian Circles" had existed for a long time but they were more or less just clubs, not truly a state aperatus. That is now being changed with new councils. A cooperative economy is also being voluntarily created...
There is tons of info on www.Venezuelaanalysis.com I would suggest that anyone interested look into this. It will provide all sides with a better understanding of the situation in Venezuela.
Also on a note- Yes, they are still using the bourgeois system of government because there is virtually no baggage attached to it. The systems of repression are all specifically bolivarian now because they didnt exist prior to Chavez's being elected because imperialism was forcing every last dollar into the oil industry.
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:30 pm
Quote: Chavez isn't trying to cause a revolution in America, he is just trying to take the heat off of himself. and in this quote all of you incantations of goodness from chavez are gone, blown into the wind...
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:42 pm
Chavez's problem is he has no apeal to an American voter, we need our own marxists here to take over. He can't do everything :p Just like in Russia and the COMintern, they could give advice and money, but little else because of peoples' nationalistic concerns. Chavez telling people what to do here would be as negatively received as it was in Peru.
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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:22 am
Handmade Soldier Yo preferiria pensar que chavez es socialista , porque solo mira cuantas son las personas que se atreven a oponerse o incluso a enfrentarse a bush, chavez es como un respiro para la latinoamerica oprimida por el imperialismo. I wanted to write it in spanish because I didn't knew how to organize my ideas in english.....I hope that you understand what I wrote sweatdrop Indeed I understood. cool
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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:59 am
REDGallenger Chavez's problem is he has no apeal to an American voter, we need our own marxists here to take over. He can't do everything :p Just like in Russia and the COMintern, they could give advice and money, but little else because of peoples' nationalistic concerns. Chavez telling people what to do here would be as negatively received as it was in Peru. Well shouldnt that be up to communist parties in the United States such as CPUSA or RCP?
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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:13 am
Well, as you know comrade I'm not a panderer to the idea of a single party leading things, but yes, these parties have an undeniable need to assume the leadership role in our society, or at least try. If anything Chavez improving the economy of Venezuela, nie bringing it to a huge boom, is a boon unlike many that we've had in a while.
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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:06 pm
while it is good in view of the broad spectrum of te left, we here, or at least the most councious ones here, like to call ourselves marxists and communists, and we must realise that what is in effect there, is capitalism, there is no state controle of industry other than oil, and once the price of oil drops, chavez will be ousted. what we must do is realise that his example has proven us right, and thus take controle away from him.
to deny this is populism, capitulating to the current low counciousness of the working class!
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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:32 pm
Price of oil isn't dropping anytime soon though. Its only rising. And as far as Chavez goes, you have to start somewhere. Sure he's not perfect, but he's at least farther left than a lot of other world leaders.
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:15 am
so now we are into tailing after the left bourgoisie are we? i know thats what most "socialist" parties have done for over a century, i mean, look at the mensheviks.
but here is the thing. in the end, they all turn out like the mensheviks. that is, they all fight the revolution.
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:18 am
Let's put it this way: better a left-leaning dictator than a right-leaning dictator.
Not that its the best option that could exist. Its just that it could be worse.
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:28 am
i prefer right wingers. that way the people know they should oppose them. with left wingers, you get lesser-of-2-evil-ists, like yourself hanging on, saying, "NO! cease the class struggle, he is your friend, he gives you food, do not overthrow him, TRUST THE LIBERAL BOURGEOISIE!"
as i said, at least with right winger the people know they have the right to depose them, though usualy its just in favour of the 'liberals'
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