The next time I hear Communism killed 100 million...

[Contra mundus]

Well all I remember is they dissolved the Constituients assembly and the other Leftists didn't want this. But I have a limited knowledge on this subject. I'll coomment more after I'm done with your huge links and more so after I'm done with my book.  

[Next Dollar After]

yeah, I link to books, exciting no?
also the second goldman link(further dissolusionment) was cut off
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/further/further_toc.html
that should work  

[Contra mundus]

If it werne't for my slow printer I would print these off!

I skipped to First Impressions of Moscow and yes the fear of spies and large amount of military presence is a little fo a concern, but this was still during the Civil War right?  

[Steve Sage]

Gracchvs

also, after the revolution, are you going to "do away with the power loom to return to the spinning wheel"? if not, then explain to me how modern society would run in such a case, how would a factory operate? you need machinists, mechanics, porters, all of which have to be organised. how will that happen if there is no authority?

This is the part were I stabe Dollar in the back and side with a Leninist. I consider gift economics that anarchists advocate to be wonderful things, but do I expect them to produce a viable net work of social disutibution for a whole mass industral soceity? No I don't.

I belive in an anarchist soceity one of three scernicos will occur 1) democratic city-states will form out of communes 2) if anarcho-captialism rules protection companies will bring about a neo-feudel era. 3) some guy with a bunch of guys makes himself king  

[annoying123452]

If you argue war itself you will lose. It is irrational, insane, stupid and idiotic. If you argue after effects of war you will win. Good things come from war. But... War itself is stupid.

If 100 million people die in an experiment that is 100 million to many. I thought that was figured out after world war two... We need a less bloody method of testing. Capitalism is bad, yes those things happened. World war 2 however was not entirely for capitalistic means. It was a war for the peoples right to live.  

[Next Dollar After]

Obach Stove

Gracchvs

also, after the revolution, are you going to "do away with the power loom to return to the spinning wheel"? if not, then explain to me how modern society would run in such a case, how would a factory operate? you need machinists, mechanics, porters, all of which have to be organised. how will that happen if there is no authority?

This is the part were I stabe Dollar in the back and side with a Leninist. I consider gift economics that anarchists advocate to be wonderful things, but do I expect them to produce a viable net work of social disutibution for a whole mass industral soceity? No I don't.

I belive in an anarchist soceity one of three scernicos will occur 1) democratic city-states will form out of communes 2) if anarcho-captialism rules protection companies will bring about a neo-feudel era. 3) some guy with a bunch of guys makes himself king

man both of you need to read up on spain and argentina and anarchist-communits/anarcho-syndicalist theory. and Obach yr an a-cap but you believe number two? gross! Or are you a minarchist now?  

[Steve Sage]

Next Dollar After

Obach Stove

Gracchvs

also, after the revolution, are you going to "do away with the power loom to return to the spinning wheel"? if not, then explain to me how modern society would run in such a case, how would a factory operate? you need machinists, mechanics, porters, all of which have to be organised. how will that happen if there is no authority?

This is the part were I stabe Dollar in the back and side with a Leninist. I consider gift economics that anarchists advocate to be wonderful things, but do I expect them to produce a viable net work of social disutibution for a whole mass industral soceity? No I don't.

I belive in an anarchist soceity one of three scernicos will occur 1) democratic city-states will form out of communes 2) if anarcho-captialism rules protection companies will bring about a neo-feudel era. 3) some guy with a bunch of guys makes himself king

man both of you need to read up on spain and argentina and anarchist-communits/anarcho-syndicalist theory. and Obach yr an a-cap but you believe number two? gross! Or are you a minarchist now?

I wouldn't exactly call myself an anarcho-captialist right now. I am not a miniarchist either. I am just recongizing that the market for protection services would lead to natural monopolies due to the nature of that market. IE how is a protection firm arcoss town going to be able to defend me from local thereats.  

[Katyusha Rockets]

Shoot.
I should have shoved that in Invictus's face when I was debating with him
Oh well he got my point

 

[Le Pere Duchesne]

ok dollar boy, please realise i said BEFORE the spanish civil war(by the way, why doesnt anyone actaully read what i say when they respond to it? just claiming that i gave a butchered account of a war when i was talking about events preceeding it by i think 6 months just shows your lack or ability to accept your own faults.)


but, i will actually create an anrachy vs communism thread, 2 reasonts, this is way of topic, and there hasnt been one in at least 6 months, so yeah.  

[Kenzu]

M-mann

...I'm brining up this

So the purpose of this thread I guess is to discuss arguments against Communism and to come up with responses to this. Comments?

My comment is the following:

Capitalism kills 20 million people each year. They die because of wars, hunger, poverty, tortures and executions by their governments.  

[Real Horrorshow Groodies]

under stalin's rule, the soviet union was not a communist nation as outlined by marx, but a totalitarian regime that perverted the entire concept of communism.  

[Le Pere Duchesne]

and im guessing you think this is a revelation?

ok, now after re reading the thread, i notice dollar prodding me to justify what we did in the ukrain against mahkno.

ok, let me see...

what did we do? suppress the guerrilas, kill a few peasants that kind of thing.

what did they do? pogroms.
simple.

by arousing anti-jewish hatred in the peasantry they were creating a body that could be highjacked by other, more conservative forces and then use that area as a launching pad against the heartlsnd of the nascent soviet state.  

[Next Dollar After]

gracchvs that post just shows how little you've done to educate yr self outside of the lenninst propaganda of the era, please read up on some stuff of the time period that wasn't written by a lenninist or a trot. Again I'll reccomend the writings of Berkman and Goldman who spent two years in Russia as well as Mahkno's own writings, Avrich has a few books on the period as well as others. The Ukraine of the early 1900's as with much of the rest of Europe had quite a bit of Anti-semitism to but to accuse Mahkno or the Mahknovichina of pogroms is to ignore history. Mahkno killed one of his officers himself who took part in a pogrom and personally vouched and stood up for jewish comrades whom some ukrainians wished to oppress. He was and is thought well of by many jewish anarchists and I find it unlikely that he would be regarded at the level he is by them if he had taken part in the anti-semitism and pogroms as claimed by Lenin and Trotsky.


Whereas Lenin and Trotsky killed their comrades, true revolutionaries who had fought since the begining and wished for nothing more than freedom for nothing more than the crime of disagreement with the Bolshevik line.  

[Next Dollar After]

and yr also ignoring the fact that it was thanks to the mahknovichina and their shortlived friendship with the bolsheviks(guess who you can thank for ending that?) that ukraine wasn't completely occupied by the whites, germans, and austrians, and that these forces weren't able to then march right through the "heartland of russia"  

[Le Pere Duchesne]

Quote:

He was and is thought well of by many jewish anarchists and I find it unlikely that he would be regarded at the level he is by them if he had taken part in the anti-semitism and pogroms as claimed by Lenin and Trotsky.

of course he is, they are aarchists, they would never accuse one of their own of such a thing, and they would never belive the word of a communist, someone with a propper programme based on class conflict and a scientific analysis of history, when it stands counter posed to an anarchist, that is a petty bourgeois peasant populist.
just claiming "EVIL COMMY PROPAGANDA!!!" is crap, and then saying that the bolsheviks killed those who "only disagreed with bolshevism" is bulshit. look at the ultralefts, and the workers opposition, were they killed? hardly, but if you are alking about the civil wars and such, ive said it elswhere and ill say it again, 1: military nessessity, 2:they sided with the whites, 3: they oposed us, and therefore, the proletariat. now considering this was a time when the soviets still held considerable power in the citeis(the only place that matters) it was hardle the bolsheviks, but rather the WORKING CLASS, ARMED AS A WHOLE that did it.