Welcome to Gaia! ::

The Gaian Gay-Straight Alliance

Back to Guilds

Our goal is to spread awareness of, lessen unwarranted hatred of, and create a safe haven for the LGBTQ community and their allies. 

Tags: Gay Straight Alliance, LGBT, homosexual, straight, transgender 

Reply Extended Discussion
Being Gay is Wrong Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2 3 ... 4 5 6 7 [>] [»|]

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

Naked_Ideas

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:34 pm


I say that each and every reason you believe that being gay is wrong does not have enough stabability to be true because it can easily be succesfulley argues aganist and proven wrong in its statement. Natural... being gay is not a disease like mental patients who hurt people. Why should it better if it is not egg and sperm interacting? Would test tubes babies be wrong too? Not everyone follows the bibel, there are many other religions out there too. The bible has many flaws that hurt society by those who actualley believe in its texts. Gays consider it beautiful, beauty differs between people and it is not anyone to choose who is right. What is wrong with a choice made by a person... that one makes no sense as why it is wrong.

I am responding semi-angirly but not offesively I hope.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:42 pm


User Image

Clearly it's a choice. We all know this.

iMito
Vice Captain


Wishbone Redemption

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:32 am


All four can be easily discounted. This being the lowest-effort endevour- for example, if you were really in the mood, you could call up science and psychology to contradict and point out that it does occur in nature, and attraction is indeed not a choice. Observe the lazy version:

- It's not natural.

Neither are cars, elevators, glasses, cheeto-flavorings, or this computer, yet they're accepted readily enough.

- The Bible says it's wrong.

Leviticus says it's wrong. Leviticus is ceremonial law, which was abolished with the crucifixtion of Christ. Do you sacrifice a sheep every two weeks? Do you follow the Torah? If not, drop it.

- It's gross.

Anything involving sticking a bit of you into the body of someone else is gross, but heterosexual sex is accepted readily enough. Gross is a subjective adjective, hence moot in all serious realms of debate. Goodbye.

- It's a choice.

Do you make a conscious choice to like a certain flavor of ice-cream? "I think I'll enjoy vanilla today, despite the fact that my tongue thinks differently." Initiating a relationship is a choice, but no one choses who they are attracted to. Choose to enjoy the taste of soap, and go wash out your mouth.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:06 am


my mother uses the gross / immoral argument, as sex is ment for to bear children...


whenever she does i make the point that by that argument alone anyone who has ever uses a contraceptive, had an abortion, had sex without the intent to get pregnant, hell did anything other than abstinance without the direct intention to create children are by that argument alone immoral and / or gross.

with the bible says its wrong thing, the bible was written how many years ago?, also gods law says you arent allowed to worship statues, yet you worship mary...she is i believe not god, it also says you can kill people for working on the sabath...

also inter racial marriage was condemed as wrong and immoral once too, does that not reflect most human beings acceptance levels?

it's not natural - what has been said, neither are cars etc, also there are plenty of cases where animals have been gay, my father had gay budgies, oh well bi actualyl cos they would sleep with the female birds if seperated but were inlove with each other.

it's a choice -
yeah cos i really, really choose to be bi / something else after hearing my mother say she'd prefer for us to tell her that we have murdered someone -_-...yah cos im just that cool, you want rebelion? my social / political views could be considered rebelion, as could my peircings, heck rebelion is listening to music your parents consider to be crap! not finding yourself having crushes on members of the same sex.


being gay is not cool, having bottles thrown at you and a mates head is not cool, being considered freaks by the so called cool kids is not cool, being sent to the principal just because people tihnk you're a "f**" or as my case a lesbian because i hung out with the "f**" is not cool.!


also i happen to find the idea of giving birth to be utterly disgusting, sure the kids cute but for gods sake yuck!!!, you don't find me trying to get that outlawed now do you?

clarity dade


The Peaceful Darkness

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:35 pm


Okay, I'm going to start by saying that ANY christian who justifies their lack of tolerance for us is not a true christian. Since no concious, self-respecting human being would choose to be attracted to their own gender, this more-or-less disproves the "it's a choice" arguement. Now, how can any god hate and condemn us for something we have no control over? That's almost as bad as when the Europeans used the excuse "the africans don't have technology advanced enough to fight us successfully because god wants us to enslave them" to go in and take the natives out of their homes and place them into virtually a life of torture and agony. God loves all his children, he doesn't pick and choose.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:33 pm


iMito
Being gay is wrong. Prove me wrong.

This is more insight for me than anything else, I'm not against homosexuality, clearly. However, I want to see how the members of this guild argue against the arguement condemning them. [Well, maybe not arguement, statement really.]

Contradictory arguements to take into account:

- Being gay's not natural.
- The Bible says so [Not only in Leviticus].
- It's just gross.
- It's a choice.


I dislike the fact that people will use religion and say that the bible says so >< seriously its like blah >< 2 me gays are just like everyone else to me they need love too and they chose whom to love like everyone else. ^-^ being gay is just as natural as being straight all with people who want to love. I think the action of love is more powerful then what people have to think seriously lol ^-^

IBVexed


IBVexed

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:47 pm


Being gay is a choice for people. Everyone is obligated to thier own bias upon things and of course its whats makes a person themself...and again if asked they look at person with the same look they were giving and question if you could chose would you...? Some people hate gays which to me is insane!!Honestly everyone is a person and you dont even know their sexual orentation when you first meet someone ...altho some noticable then others...you still dont question them and you learn in due time about a person and they can be the coolest person in the world who can act straight as ever which I find contridicting..think about football okkkkkkkk....slapping another guys butt doesn't seem gay to some people but think of the reaction if they knew the person was gay..?? yea...I think to much...lol ...but honestly people are harsh towards the unknowned if something new comes along they tend to act upon it...its...like they are scared of changes ...which does happen...>< Us humans ...scared of change when realised about change....honestly were the most changed subjects in the world....>< and gays are just new to people..because others are just used to what they are used to.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:57 am


IBVexed: It's not necessary to make one post right after another. Just edit your post if you have more to say.

Secondly, I can barely understand your second post. This is Extended Debate. No one expects you to use perfect grammar or have perfect spelling (and God knows I don't), but people shouldn't have to try and decipher your post.

Taeryyn
Captain

Man-Hungry Ladykiller


Marshal67

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:15 pm


iMito
Being gay is wrong. Prove me wrong.

This is more insight for me than anything else, I'm not against homosexuality, clearly. However, I want to see how the members of this guild argue against the arguement condemning them. [Well, maybe not arguement, statement really.]

Contradictory arguements to take into account:

- Being gay's not natural.
- The Bible says so [Not only in Leviticus].
- It's just gross.
- It's a choice.


Marshal67
This is my argument for Homosexuality within the cnofines of the Bible. Please take the time to read the links, fabulous little things.

Thanks to:
TrunkstheSlayer
Ananel

Does the Bible Condemn Homosexuality? An Interview with Dr Reverend Cheri DiNovo

She really hits home here; if nothing else. Read this. It is this whole post in laymens terms.

What the Bible sys - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality

Meh, ok; makes some valid points but I have others which I have seen that are better

What the Bible says about Homosexuality

the mention of woman having sexual relations with angels, is actually the Sephirum I believe; ie fallen angels(I may have gotten the name wrong). I believe ths can also be found in the book of Noah, which is not considered part of the Bible as it surfaced many many years after the Bible today was decided upon

Homosexuality and the Bible

Great source, you can really find a lot here


Also, here is this from a friend of mine, a philosohper:

Ananel
We should cover a few things first:
1) I am Christian. No matter what you think of my views below, I am a firm believer in the salvation of Christ and have been for almost all of my life.
2) I believe in the original inerrancy of Holy Scripture. In other words, God divinely inspired the apostles and prophets in the writing of the Bible, His chosen words written through their hand. I don’t feel, however, that this also means that X translation is divinely inspired. What was promised was the original Word of God. We have since kept it as well as possible, though imperfections do occur.
3) I can, though with some difficulty, read Greek and Hebrew. Much of my commentary will use words from the original language, so be prepared for this.

Now, let me summarize this argument, because the argument itself will take pages of material even at its most basic. I will post the details of the argument in future postings if necessary, assuming that I am permitted to continue to do so.

A) The Ceremonial Law of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy no longer applies. Because of what is written in the book of Galatians and Paul’s writings in the second chapter of Colossians, we have clear declarations that the ceremonial law is now in the field of Christian liberty. Paul uses a variety of examples to declare this and lists several portions of the law, following with the declaration that all of it was nailed to the Cross and has been removed. This belief is backed up further by the book of Romans and the speeches at the council of Jerusalem in Acts (Chapter 15), along with selected sayings by Christ concerning ceremonial practice. If we decide to pick and choose portions of the ceremonial law to continue in observance as God’s will without clear relation of those parts to the commandments of God referenced in Romans, James and Revelations, then we place ourselves in danger of the ban of Galatians 1:8.

If this is the case, and most of you will find that your pastors will agree with this, unless you are members of the Seventh-day Adventist or similar denominations, then we have a big problem in the debate of homosexual sex as a sin. The problem is simple: The two clearest declarations of homosexual sex as a sin in the Bible are found in chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus. If the ceremonial law no longer applies, then neither do these.

B) Sodom and Gomorrah do not pertain to homosexual sex, and the same can be said of the related story in Judges. The sins of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are clearly huge. Have you ever seen a city in your lives where the whole male population tried to batter down doors so that they could gang rape guests to the city? I apologize for being so blunt and almost crude, but the point is not a pleasant one, and neither is the story. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were sinful beyond our understanding. These were foul places where such extreme forms of rape were accepted and where the closest thing to a righteous man offers up his daughters to their lusts. Further, the issue also comes up that this is a story more about the complete lack of hospitality and the brutality of the citizens. It is reading too far into the text to say that this passage says anything about homosexual sex. It is speaking of extreme cases that do not apply to homosexual sex.

(Note: Ezekiel 16 is the passage which refers to the sins of Sodom/Gomorrah)

C) The argument of creation (God created them Adam and Eve, so they are meant to be complimentary) suffers from a massive weakness. In chapter three of Genesis, we are told why a man leaves his father and mother to become one flesh with the woman that he loves. We are told similar things in chapter five of Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. However, neither passage declares that this must be the only thing. Paul also speaks elsewhere of the joys of celibacy. This indicates that marriage is not required. Without proof that homosexual sex is considered a sin, there is no reason to automatically assume that “Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve” is actually said in Scripture. The passages only say why heterosexual marriages occur, not that they must be the only ones.

In fact, an important point must be made. Scripture speaks clearly about the need to save sex for marriage. If the Bible has not declared homosexual sex or marriage as sinful, then we have done a vast disservice in refusing homosexual couples the right to marriage. We are, in effect, trying to force them into sinful relationships out-of-wedlock.

D) There are three passages that may speak on homosexual sex in the New Testament. Two are lists of sins, found in chapter six of Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians and chapter one of his first letter to Timothy. The third, and most important, passage is found in the first chapter of Paul’s letter to the Romans.

1) The two lists are poorly translated in the cases of homosexuality. Three words are found in these passages that are used to relate to homosexual sex: Pornia, Arsenokoitas and Malakoi. Pornia means pervert. That’s all it really means. It refers to sexual perversion, but makes no statement as to what that perversion is. It is far too general to relate to homosexual sex. Malakoi refers to softness or effeminacy, with implications of perversion. The term is used to refer to a man who is too passionate and emotional, and who acts upon these. It relates to the Grecian concepts of gender identity. The man was not to be emotional in this fashion. If one stretches the meaning of the word, examples are found where Malakoi may refer to the ‘bottom’ partner of pederasty. This is a relationship wherein a teenage boy traded sexual favors with an older man in return for guidance and training. It was common within Greek society and accepted in Roman society. Arsenokoitas is a compound word derived from the Greek words for man and bed. While this sounds like a clear reference to homosexuality to our modern ears, there is a problem. The word does not appear at any point prior to Paul’s letters. To our knowledge, he created the term himself. Its usage in all other cases I am aware of either represents something akin to an aggressive sexual predator or, more commonly, the ‘top’ partner in pederasty. At most these verses could possibly have listed pederasty as a crime, but not homosexual sex alone. You cannot read into the text the fact that, because something condemned includes another thing, that other thing is automatically condemned as well. For example, a person who breaks the commandment about not bearing false testimony against one’s neighbor must communicate to do so. Communication is not condemned, is it? The condemnation of pederasty cannot be clearly related, even in consideration of Jewish morals that Paul is familiar with, to a condemnation of homosexual sex. Look at http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html for further details on the specifics of Arsenokoites and Malakoi.

2) Romans 1:18-32 is the key to the argument. However, there are a series of problems with the classic interpretation of the passage.

One, we rarely take verses 26-27 in context with the rest of the passage. The lusts spoken of are the result of godlessness and the refusal of the gospel of God. The godless ones are described as being given over to their passions. This loss of control is key and important to the Greeks and Romans Paul is writing to, and was considered a very bad thing. It is important to realize that the passage is not centered on homosexual relations, no matter how you interpret it.

Two, the relationships are referred to as being unnatural. The term pushin is the Greek word for natural and refers, in general, to that which is according either to socially accepted morals or to one’s innate nature. The society Paul is writing to, both Roman and Greek, considered homosexual relationships to be quite natural. What would have been considered unnatural to the Romans would specifically have been something where a citizen was ‘on bottom.’ Such a position degrades the citizen’s status and was considered to be a horrible thing.

Three, the shameful lusts that are spoken of are not specifically described. Unlike Leviticus, where they are listed, the passage assumes that its audience knows what is being spoken of. While Paul is a born and trained Jew, familiar with the ceremonial law, he is preaching to newly converted Christians in Rome and Greece. These people, though somewhat familiar with Jewish beliefs, could not have been considered familiar enough to assume that “shameful lusts” meant what is said in Leviticus. Paul is not a man to leave explanations unclear. When necessary, he goes into great detail and repetition to make his point absolutely clear and understood. Therefore, by context it seems he is speaking to the Roman’s understanding of shameful, the subjugation of a citizen for example. Further, pathos (lusts) does not necessitate a sexual connotation.

Four, the fact that we have women doing things with women instead of men and that we have men doing things with men instead of women is clear from what Paul says in verses 26-27. However, Paul does not at any point say what is being done. He lacks the clarity of Leviticus. Any number of things could be occurring, and without a clear indication that the text is specifically speaking of homosexual sex acts on any level we are familiar with today we cannot claim that Romans 1 clearly declares that the ceremonial law still applies in this case.

My arguments are quite basic. This is only an overview of them. I have far more detailed descriptions of the issues involved and will happily offer them. This argument is also not new. You can find websites offering similar interpretations themselves. I came to these conclusions, however, through prayer and consideration with friends, not a website. These positions, also, are hardly universally accepted. There is strong evidence in both directions with regards Romans 1. Some churches still make the claim that parts of the ceremonial law remain intact. There are strong arguments both for and against this.

My single greatest point is this: Can you honestly declare something a sin when you cannot clearly show without serious contention that the Bible declares it to be a sin? When we look at the Ten Commandments, we know basically what they say and don’t argue over them. Christ further explains them during his life, giving us more information about what they mean. We know these things to be sins, and there is little debate. Homosexual sex is found in the ceremonial laws and what few verses speak of it outside of that set of laws are hotly contested. How can we clearly state, based upon these facts, that homosexuality is indeed a sin?

No. I don't think it's wrong, and I'll be happy to stand on Scripture to that effect.

I agree with more or less everything here. There are parts, such as the Bible not being the word of God that I do disagree with. But even that accepted, the argument still stands.

So my stance on homosexuality. It is not, was not, and never will be a sin.

Marshal


lol Ya, I know you all might have seen this in other threads here. I am trying to get it circulated around gaia!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:34 pm


As for the statement about choice, here's the facts, or theories rather:

1) Genetic - the most accepted idea amongst scientists, as well as the gay community.

2) Psychological - The idea that people are gay because they had a dominearing mother and/or an ineffective father making them tend away from the opposite gender. Sons - afraid of moms, daughters - affiliating men with the ineffectiveness of their fater.

3) Sociological - When someone joins a group, they often take on the behavioral patterns of that group. Gay people often have a history of being shunned and/or bullied. The idea is they get accepted by a group of people with homosexual tendencies and they adapt.

4) Situational - Becoming gay to relieve sexual tension or fulfilling the need for sex. Examples would be prisons or the military where there are an excess of men but little or no women.

5) Recreational - People with the mentality that sex is fun. Gender doesn't really matter, as long as you're getting sex, that's all that counts.

6) Choice - I know, I know "homosexuality isn't a choice." For the most part, that's right. However, there are situations where people actually do choose to become gay. For instance, a woman with power in the market place might look to another woman with power to form an alliance of sorts, instead of creating a distraction of men. It's convenient. Another example is when someone gets a divorce with someone of the opposite sex and was abused physically and/or mentally and have developed a phobia for men, and thus choose to be gay.

If you provide this information and perhaps cite it [which I didn't do. sorry]-- then there's really no way to argue because you're using facts not. OMG BNG GAY IS NO CHOOS! Facts, statistics, and logic generally work better than hot headed ranting.

iMito
Vice Captain


Raudilyn

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:45 pm


The main issue that I have with people using the Bible as a way to say being gay is wrong, is that not everyone is Christian. Just because one person is Christian and believes in that part of the Bible, does that mean that non-Christians should feel that who they are is wrong because someone else's religion told them so?!?

If I was an atheist and someone wanted to make homosexuality illegal because it went against their religion, doesn't that violate my right to religious freedom? I live in Virginia and having sex with a member of the same sex is illegal (so is adultery, or having sex outside of marriage) and the law was probably created before a great deal of seperation of church and state took place. Sorry that I rambled so much!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:10 pm


Raudilyn
The main issue that I have with people using the Bible as a way to say being gay is wrong, is that not everyone is Christian. Just because one person is Christian and believes in that part of the Bible, does that mean that non-Christians should feel that who they are is wrong because someone else's religion told them so?!?

If I was an atheist and someone wanted to make homosexuality illegal because it went against their religion, doesn't that violate my right to religious freedom? I live in Virginia and having sex with a member of the same sex is illegal (so is adultery, or having sex outside of marriage) and the law was probably created before a great deal of seperation of church and state took place. Sorry that I rambled so much!


The idea is religion is seperate from government, however that isn't possible because most people in congress are Christian and religion shapes people's morals.

However, the reality is that people in Congress don't usually vote for morals, they usually vote in regard to what lobbyist earned the most of their campaign and what they want them to do because when someone pays for most of your campaign, it's hard to say no when they ask for a favor. (For representatives, it's easy to go over $500k, and for senators, it's easier to go even higher.) So, Congress often listens to lobbyists and don't vote upon morals, but then you have lobbyists who can act upon religion. So, this is often how you have religion in government.

The only check we have for this is the Supreme Court who are free of obligation and partisanship.

iMito
Vice Captain


-Blind Voyeur-

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:39 pm


- Being gay's not natural.
I don't see how one would argue that point. There are many things that people use everyday that aren't natural but you don't see them saying, "That car's not natural so it's wrong." If it's not natural then how come it happens in other species?

- The Bible says so [Not only in Leviticus].
I've read the Bible cover to cover, it only says that gay sex is wrong. Being homosexual is an attraction to someone of the same sex.

- It's just gross.
That's a personal opinion. I think spinach is gross, does that mean it's wrong? (minus the ecoli >.>)

- It's a choice.
It's not a choice. Why would anyone choose to be an outcast in society? To be disowned from their family? To be an abomination unto their own god? Again with species, if it's a choice why are some animals gay?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:35 pm


mew_mew_mi-chan
- It's just gross.
That's a personal opinion. I think spinach is gross, does that mean it's wrong?


Actually, it was just in the news that spinach is bad for you. biggrin

iMito
Vice Captain


-Blind Voyeur-

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:40 am


iMito
mew_mew_mi-chan
- It's just gross.
That's a personal opinion. I think spinach is gross, does that mean it's wrong?


Actually, it was just in the news that spinach is bad for you. biggrin


Yeah, because of the ecoli XD I realized that AFTER I posted it.
Reply
Extended Discussion

Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2 3 ... 4 5 6 7 [>] [»|]
 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum