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I find the concept of free will to be overrated and often not all that important in the long run. Often the truth lies somewhere between two polarities, and I think that's the case here. Beleifs in absolute free will or absolute fate can lead to styles of behavior that are deletrious to the individual and society.

Absolute free will implies that we are totally in control of our own actions. This simply isn't the case. As much as we like to think we control ourselves, humans are reactive creatures as much as we are proactive. Our genes and our worldview will predispose us to react in certain ways that we are hard pressed and sometimes cannot deviate from. We thus cannot have absolute free will, for to have such would imply we are not limited by our bodies and our minds... which we are. There's a possible workaround to this that I'll get to in a bit.

Absolute fate, on the other hand, does the opposite in implying that we are not in control of ourselves whatsoever. We can only react to the things that happen to us in predictable ways and will end up at a certain end point by the time we die. This doesn't seem to be the case either, as we are proactive as well as reactive. We can set goals for ourselves and change our behavior to reach them.

One who believes in absolute free will may use that as an excuse not to take responsibility for their actions. A person who believes in absolute fate might use that as an excuse to not bother taking action. There are other ways these believes can be psychologically neurotic, but I'm sure you guys can use your imaginations. wink

I mentioned a workaround to physical limitations on free will earlier. If humans truly have a more absolute free will, posession of an entity which is not bound by the same physical limitations would allow this. In other words, posession of a soul. The soul would operate by different limitations than the body, and hypothetically allow for a greater degree of free will than we might otherwise posess. Of course there is still the school of psychological thought that thinks we are purely reactive in nature.

Alas, there really isn't any definate answer to this. I just like to find my answers in the middle ground. whee

Ah well, I've just met some people who believe in free will who claim to take responsibility for their actions but in reality don't. They'll take responsibility for some things, but not other things. Not all people who believe in free will are like that... I didn't mean to give the impression that they all think that way. It's just a case example. 3nodding

That's kind of the point. Delusion is more or less part of humanity in and of itself. It's a subconcious mechanism for coping with reality.

I think that free will is the ability to respond to outward stimuli; our responses are part of our free will. The worldview that we hold is a result of our choices and thoughts, and we can overcome many of the limitations of our genes - a short temper, for example. While there are some things that we cannot fix as of yet, such as most mental disability, we work as well as we can under the circumstances.

That's what free will is to me; taking what the world and nature have given me, and working with, around, and through it.

Free will dictates moral responsibility. Determinism doesn't. Taken in different context, both are possible. I'm a pretty strong beleiver in determinism though, the approach and the case for it are much more logical. As stated above, the human mind still works on instinct. What was wrongly said was that we constantly go against instinct. I really don't think that's the case, because instinct is basically desire, and all our actions are determined by our desires. We're constantly influenced by outside forces, each desire being replaced by a newer stronger one throughout the day. It's not possible to say 'I have the free will to jump out this 3 story window if I wanted to', because then you're just acting out of a desire to prove someone wrong. an outside influence. Now, when talking about ethics and morality, people seem to suddenly have a lot more free will than in their everyday actions and chores. it's just what context you look at each one in.

But by changing your environment to suit ideals that aren't originally yours, you're still acting on outside influences and your actions are therefore already determined. as i said, it really depends on what context you're looking at everything from, but i believe determinism exists, it's just not as clear as we all think.

"We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at any given moment knew all of the forces that animate nature and the mutual positions of the beings that compose it, if this intellect were vast enough to submit the data to analysis, could condense into a single formula the movement of the greatest bodies of the universe and that of the lightest atom; for such an intellect nothing could be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes."
-Marquis Pierre Simon de Laplace

Anyone who believes in free will believes in an entirely random universe. A man who cannot find a reason for an action of his is either lying or doing it at random, and if you think "random" is a result of your will, you are mistaken. Everything you do is a result of the entire cosmos working on you, from your genetics, from your influences. When you make a choice, it is because you have been conditioned to do so in that specific situation, why else would you have done it?