With Aggron off the team, fighting wasn't really too much of a concern anymore. I think Flying was the biggest one if I had Medicham, but Gyarados neutralized that and added Electric, but Donphan's good for that. I did also consider maybe Tyrantrum for neutral elemental damage overall from water and electric which I think were high on the list.
For most typing there's a weakness, someone else resists, except flying, but four take neutral damage.
I'd like someone who resists flying in my last slot, if I put Gyarados in that slot, but I'd like someone who either helps set up sweeping for my two main sweepers or assists by sweeping nicely himself. (Since Gyarados does a bit of set up himself.)
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:16 pm
Donphan: Spiker/Despiker
Leftovers // Sturdy // Adamant
252 HP / 188 Att / 68 Def
Earthquake Rapid Spin Stealth Rock Roar
Notes: A Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin Lead. Leftovers to keep it around. Which means if I keep Umbreon, I'll need to find either a different item for one of them or another Leftovers. Earthquake for a nice STAB and either Roar for the PHaze or Ice Shard for an ice move which my team could use, as-is. And it's priority, so that's nice. The EVs are up for debate, but I saw them suggested and they seemed to fit what I figured would be nice. Some Def to allow him to take a few more Physical attacks, though with his type weaknesses, I really need to make sure to keep him away from special attackers in general. And with his base SDef, I don't really think it'd be best to put anything into it.
Volcarona: Special Sweep
Life Orb // Flame Body // Timid or Modest
252 SAtt / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Whirlwind Quiver Dance Bug Buzz Fire Blast
size=11]Notes: Whirlwind to PHaze. Quiver Dance is awesome~ Bug Buzz and Fire Blast with Life Orb for sweeping STABs. Flame Body + slight Def EVs for possible burn. Unless you think Swarm would be worth trying to get. I also would want a Rapid Spinner or someone to deal with opponent SR for this team, if I do include Volcarona.
I would have to trade / find someone with a Larvesta Friend Safari to get this Pokemon, but I've always been a fan of Volcarona, which is strange, since it isn't monochrome.
Umbreon
Leftovers // Synchronize // Calm
252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Wish Heal Bell / Toxic / Yawn Protect / Yawn Foul Play
Notes: I'd like a Cleric, and Umbreon is one of the coolest looking I could find. Several times I've run Umbreon and Mightyena in-game and named them after my best friends who are a couple.
Wish is basic for this Cleric Build. Heal Bell seems nice, or I could go the opposite route and give Toxic. Yawn would be to stand in as a possible PHaze. Protect would be best run along side Toxic, I feel, but if predicted could cause for inconvenient set-up. Good for scouting. Yawn again considered as a possible PHazing move. Foul Play for obvious reasons. Avoiding Taunt bait, possible counter to some physical sweepers and such.
Mega Venusaur
Venusaurite // Thick Fat // Bold
252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
Giga Drain Synthesis Leech Seed Sludge Bomb
Notes: I really want to run a tank and a drainer, and I think Mega Venusaur might fit that position? And I have the Mega slot available now, if I want to fill it. Giga Drain for STAB drainage. Synthesis for extra lasting. Leech Seed for even more drainage fun and possible PHaze. Sludge Bomb for STAB possible poisoning. I've also thought about running an HP there? Dunno which to go. I'd thought Fire, but I've got Volcarona, not that I can't have 2 fire moves. Also, I've not really looked into how to get specific HP moves and that might make me pull my hair out while breeding if it's difficult. Ha.
Notes: I think Tyranitar might be a nice fit. Only now realizing double Fighting type weakness, though . . . So yeah. This slot is the most open for debate. I ran Stone Edge + Crunch for some nice STAB coverage in types I felt my team could use offensively. I wanted an Electric attack on this slot, but not sure how it works with the set. Since it will only super-effective hit flying and water. Flying I have Stone Edge, Water I might as well switch out. A sweeping fighting type is also something I thought would work. But now I'm not sure how well he synergies with the set overall.
Notes: My team needed a water type, I feel. Life Orb instead of Choice so I don't have to get two and so I can run DDance. Waterfall over Aqua Tail for better accuracy. Ice Fang for a needed ice move. Possible freeze and flinch. The last slot I'm super undecided on. Another Earthquake couldn't hurt. Bounce would be nice for the STAB, but is easy to predict and this set is not built to take a switch in prediction and junk. Stone Edge is nice, but I also don't feel that I need two on my team? And then Dragon Tail could be nice for the alright typing and PHaze.
Donphan Update: Opted for Roar over Ice Shard. Roar doesn't work on Ghost types does it, though? I'm debating on changing it to be more defensive, though, since it only has Earthquake STAB offensively? 252 HP/Def, 4 Att and Impish nature? Or I could go even more offensive and run Ice Shard / Stone Edge (or even Head Smash) instead of Roar?
Volcarona Update: No change as of yet. Should I run Timid or Modest, though? And should Whirlwind be switched? Also, in competitive, I've not looked into it yet, but when force-switching (PHazing) do you choose the next Pokemon or is it random? I rarely have to deal with it in-game, so I'm forgetting. It's not much of a problem, just something I should be aware of / might affect movesets a bit.
Umbreon Update: Locked in it's moves, but I'd also be cool with opting out . . . maybe Heal Bell (as much as I like it) for Light Screen which won't have conditional usage. If I ran double screens, I might also opt for a Light Clay, which would make it so I don't have to get a second Leftovers.
Venusaur Update: No change as of yet. I'm fairly satisfied with this build if I do run a Venusaur. The point of this post is to get an overall idea of my team to help figure out who I need to leave and switch or if I need to run different movesets, etc.
Gyarados/Tyaranitar: The update is that they've been put in. Will keep people guessing as to which Pokemon has a Mega evolution, hopefully. See above for notes.
Commando Omnipants
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Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:19 pm
I think TTar is a good choice, and you have two good 'mons to soak up the fighting attacks, the best on the team being Mega Venusaur, especially with the investment in defense. With TTar, though, since you aren't running any special moves you may want to consider an Assault Vest to make his special bulk absolutely monstrous without any investment.
With Volcarona, I'd say go Modest. Since you're setting up as a quiver dance sweeper the extra speed won't come into play all that much, but you'll notice the 10% extra power. Phazing moves draw in a random pokemon. As for whirlwind, if you are confident enough that you can take a hit from whatever you're phazing out (as the phazing moves all have negative priority), then why not just Fireblast or bug buzz that ********? Or grab another boost? Personally, I'd put Roost in there instead because you can't afford to take too many hits with that life orb damage stacking up
I'd go with earthquake on Gyarados to get rid of pesky electric types (at least those that don't fly or levitate) that might try to stop your sweep.
If you want to set up screens with umbreon, I'd just say to swap it out for espeon as it's much better at that role.
BTW, I can help you out with getting 5 IV 'mons of any of these that you don't already have, minus donphan. I've already bred them for my own strategies, and it would only take a few minutes to pump out a few more
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:50 pm
Some of these switches around could work. I'd have to check if I have any type-weaknesses piling up, but I don't think that I do.
TTar with Assault Vest could work, 'cause then I could pass Choice Band to Gyarados and mess around with not needing DDance, maybe. Since then I could run Earthquake and . . . maybe Dragon Tail out of those options. I'd have to be careful with fairy switch ins, but I don't think that would be a problem. Oooor I could go Double Edge. And if I ran a Choice Band, I might even go Aqua Tail route. Dunno.
Totally agree on Volcarona going Modest. And I actually had been debating on Roost instead of Whirlwind anyways. If I remembered I had a Life Orb on it, I probably would've been swayed a little harder.
And my only qualm with Espeon instead of Umbreon is the dropped SDef. What would you suggest EV / Nature-wise if I ran a Dual Screens?
And what do you normally run along side them? Since Magic Bounce reflects Taunt I wouldn't /HAVE/ to have an offensive move, but Psychic STAB and Dazzling Gleam would be nice additions to the set. It also has some nice moves. I don't really need to Baton Pass Calm Mind, really. But Wish looks alright. It /also/ has Wish / Heal Bell if I still wanted to go Cleric, really.
And oh my goodness, I would love love that. <3 I've only IV trained some Arons and Panchams back when I didn't know what team I wanted / only was focusing on having a monochrome team.
Commando Omnipants
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Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:11 pm
With Espeon, I went with a timid nature and maximum investment in speed and HP. I run Reflect/Light Screen/Psyshock/Dazzling Gleam, but even if you don't run Calm Mind then baton pass does still have it's uses as it gets around Pursuit, and would be necessary if you wanted to run it alongside Aegislash to make sure that it soaks the dark type attacks to activate weakness policy, but otherwise you can go without it. Espeon's special attack is high enough to hurt without any investment, and if you have to run only a single offensive move then I say Dazzling Gleam because of the better coverage. Psyshock is to get around special walls like chansey/blissey.
Espeon does still have good Special Defense, but it's defense is pretty low. Always start off with reflect to patch that up, unless you know that the current 'mon it's facing only knows special attack moves. It doesn't have the HP to pass wish as well as umbreon, and it would waste another turn under the screens, but going screen,screen,wish, and then switch could make sure that a weakened team mate takes the least amount of damage on the switch before being healed by wish. I still wouldn't do it, though, but it's not out of the question
Which ones do you need help breeding?
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:23 pm
Yeah. True. I didn't think about it wasting screen turns nor it's HP stat. Just bouncing ideas around. I suppose I could run two offensive. It wouldn't hurt the team, that's for sure. You would run Psyshock over Psychic, though? Just 'cause of the slight average higher Sp.Def in Poison/Fighting or wha'? I looked up the average and that did make sense to me, actually. Poison being the one I looked at most heavily. I'm not thinking of major threats, either. 'Cause I'm unsure of them as far as those two types go.
But yes. This is shaping up nicely. : D
And in order of "would <3 you" in need are: Larvesta - Don't have in FS. Bulbasaur - " " Larvitar - Owns Pokemon X (Would also need to trade eventually to BW2 /if/ I decided to run Thunderpunch.)
Phanphy - Has in FS Gyarados - Has in FS Eevee - Has in FS
None have egg moves, surprisingly. Only Hidden Ability is Espeon, so I'll maybe have to spend some time in the FS, but that shouldn't be a problem at all. /forgets how often HAs appear in there
Okay. So this shouldn't be /that/ terrible.
Commando Omnipants
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Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:51 pm
Eevee is a pain in the a** to breed for nature/IV/HA because of the low female birth rate. Lucky for you, I already went through that hair-pulling experience, so I can pop one out for you in a few minutes. I did the same with bulbasaur, larvesta, and larvitar. Unfortunately, it's really hard to get both a near perfect IV pokemon and get transfer moves, since you can't transfer them back to B/W/B2/W2 from X/Y, and the breeding mechanics are a lot better in X/Y. That's actually why I don't use umbreon more, because I can't get a 5 IV one that knows Foul Play and it really pisses me off.
I could probably do Magikarp as well without too much trouble.
As for Psyshock VS Psychic, it isn't even really just against the things that are weak to psychic, more just thinking about what would switch into you while you're taking 2 turns to set up screens. Most cases, they're going to throw in something that will have a good Sp.Def since people tend to forget that psyshock is a thing. Dazzling Gleam is because you get a s**t load of dark types switching in on you.
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:10 pm
Hunter of the dusk
Eevee is a pain in the a** to breed for nature/IV/HA because of the low female birth rate. Lucky for you, I already went through that hair-pulling experience, so I can pop one out for you in a few minutes. I did the same with bulbasaur, larvesta, and larvitar. Unfortunately, it's really hard to get both a near perfect IV pokemon and get transfer moves, since you can't transfer them back to B/W/B2/W2 from X/Y, and the breeding mechanics are a lot better in X/Y. That's actually why I don't use umbreon more, because I can't get a 5 IV one that knows Foul Play and it really pisses me off.
I could probably do Magikarp as well without too much trouble.
As for Psyshock VS Psychic, it isn't even really just against the things that are weak to psychic, more just thinking about what would switch into you while you're taking 2 turns to set up screens. Most cases, they're going to throw in something that will have a good Sp.Def since people tend to forget that psyshock is a thing. Dazzling Gleam is because you get a s**t load of dark types switching in on you.
Oh, /really/? I didn't know that you couldn't switch back to BW/BW2. Gah. And really? I thought Umbreon learned Foul Play naturally. I had one that learned it and I didn't think I tutor'd it or anything. (But, I also used to play upgraded roms and they did change what moves they learn when and junk.)
And thank you so much for your help~
And aaah. I gotcha. I wasn't arguing your decision, just wondering and that totally makes sense. /nod
Commando Omnipants
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Hunter of the dusk Crew
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Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:57 pm
I really hope they bring some of those moves back with move tutors in the new hoenn remakes, because Umbreon NEEDS foul play to be effective. You have to run Payback in it's place, which doesn't even begin to be even half as good. That, and Heal Bell was also a tutor move for Umbreon, meaning you can't even run a good cleric set on the cartridge if you want it to be born in X/Y with the new mechanics.
I have a slow day at work tomorrow, so I'll breed those babies for you then.
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:13 pm
Yeah. I have a lot of hopes for the new Hoenns. I wish they could make Contests more creative. The show's were awesome. The games . . . not so much.
And alrighty~ Thanks again. If anyone else has any input on movesets and such or if I've made a glaring oversight, feel free to point it out. Gonna update the first post with what I have so far some time soon.
And I work all through next week, pretty much, but have decent net access (when home) until Sunday, I think? But I can swing by here and use it after that point if needed. /nod Just need to know. I've actually done limited trading on games, as well. Besides some Wonder Trading on X.
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Commando Omnipants
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Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:30 pm
Still a few questions on Tyranitar. I don't think Thunder Fang is gonna be worth it, eh? Especially on Tyranitar? It'd only be to deal with water types. Should I just run Pursuit instead? He already has Crunch. I know if I have a good set up, there shouldn't be /too/ many switch outs, but if I switch him in, I figure there'll probably be some switch outs depending on who it is.
And then there's the fighting-type slot. Should I run Superpower for the higher power and just switch when I can to gain back the stats? Or should I go with Low Kick and rely on the power being upped 'cause of heavy opponents? Or should I go with the middle ground Brick Break and leave it at that plus the ability to break barriers?
I also went with Double Edge over Dragon Tail. The repeat PHazing would've been nice, but being locked into a dragon type with Fairies around can be dangerous now. Went with Double Edge for Azumarill and bulky waters.
I also can't wait to test out the water. Setting up a good team before getting started is awesome, but I can't wait to play around with it / get my feet wet. I'm sure I'll need to fine tune, but that's half the fun, eh?
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:08 am
@Tyranitar, Generally speaking, you don't run a Fighting type move unless you are running it for something specific like Ferrothorn on CB T-Tar, in which case Superpower is the best option for a Fighting Type move. Earthquake offers nearly the same coverage but can hit Fairies and Aegislash. Although Crunch is better for Aegislash, but the point still remains. Just don't get caught using EQ on a Levitate-user or Flying-type If you prefer Superpower, it is an option, but EQ is the superior choice overall. However, you have Donphan and no other Fighting type moves on your team, so for your team's overall synergy, Superpower seems to be the better choice.
Also, Thunderpunch? Ice Punch > Thunderpunch, but you do have Ice Fang on Gyarados, so hm.... I say Pursuit. Standard CB T-Tar runs Stone Edge, Pursuit, Crunch, and EQ/Ice Punch. I say run that but replace last slot with Superpower as mentioned above.
Double STAB is usually frowned upon, but the 2 moves are for completely different Pokemon Pursuit nails Latias/Gengar/other frail Pokemon that will switch out that are weak to Dark Type moves. While Crunch slams Reuniclus/Slowbro/other Bulky Pokemon that are weak to Dark Type moves.
@Volcarona, Fiery Dance > Fire Blast imo. Lets you give offensive pressure while still racking up boosts. Plus, it has a lot more PP. And one Quiver Dance lets you outspeed most things and soak up most Special Attacks anyway, meaning you can start sweeping more flexibly. Fourth slot (1st technically here) is filler. Whirlwind? Nah, go with Roost or Giga Drain. Giga Drain helps you beat some Water Types that you might otherwise have trouble with. Roost is there for reliable recovery obviously. Both of these moves help for stuff like Greninja switch-ins to heal off the damage.
Standard Volcarona is Timid. 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe. (source) That may seem very odd, but Quiver Dance relinquishes the need for investment since it boosts Sp. Def too. So if you invest in physical defense you become overall bulkier and can beat many threats the 252 / 252 Volcarona cannot (I read about this somewhere once, but unfortunately I can't remember any of the examples other than the 1 mentioned below). It's up to you either way on what set you run, but please don't make him a phazer. There's no need for that. If you do, what specifically are you planning on phazing? Because I can't think of anything that wouldn't just KO you first or lose 1 on 1 normally anyway. TL;DR, it won't ever be of use to you.
After 1 Quiver Dance, Greninja's Hydro Pump cannot OHKO. But a +1 Bug Buzz will KO Greninja after Stealth Rock or Life Orb damage. And a +1 Giga Drain or +2 Bug Buzz will OHKO obviously. If Azumarill switches in on your first Quiver Dance, it will OHKO you with Waterfall. And you can't kill it with a +1 Giga Drain. But if you have 2 Quiver Dances under your belt you could Giga Drain before it gets a chance to hit you. A Choice Banded Aqua Jet is guaranteed to OHKO the set you currently are considering. That is the one example I can remember. This means Azumarill can beat Volcorona no matter how many boosts you have. Whereas with the set I am pushing, a +2 Volcorona will beat Azumarill, but only if you run Giga Drain obviously. It's worth knowing these things, so remember them and play accordingly.
Any other criticism, Clerics are over-rated. You will just have to wait and see how Umbreon works out for you. I prefer Defog for a more reliable way to get rid of Rocks. But just know how to play Donphan, he can't take special attacks, and is a tank, not a wall. Meaning he can only take so many hits.
Overall, your team looks pretty solid though. I ran a team with Volcorona and Gyarados once and it worked very well. Some teams I would notice just had no answer to one or the other so I would just lead with them and get a clean sweep off the bat. It's worthwhile if you can get 1-2+ KO's before you drop. It's odd to start off like that, but every once in a while you will see the opportunity and a 2 for 1 special is always worth it. You'll just have to play it and see how it works for ya. Good luck, bud.
Archolite Crew
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Commando Omnipants
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:57 am
Archolite
@Tyranitar, Generally speaking, you don't run a Fighting type move unless you are running it for something specific like Ferrothorn on CB T-Tar, in which case Superpower is the best option for a Fighting Type move. Earthquake offers nearly the same coverage but can hit Fairies and Aegislash. Although Crunch is better for Aegislash, but the point still remains. Just don't get caught using EQ on a Levitate-user or Flying-type If you prefer Superpower, it is an option, but EQ is the superior choice overall. However, you have Donphan and no other Fighting type moves on your team, so for your team's overall synergy, Superpower seems to be the better choice.
Also, Thunderpunch? Ice Punch > Thunderpunch, but you do have Ice Fang on Gyarados, so hm.... I say Pursuit. Standard CB T-Tar runs Stone Edge, Pursuit, Crunch, and EQ/Ice Punch. I say run that but replace last slot with Superpower as mentioned above.
Double STAB is usually frowned upon, but the 2 moves are for completely different Pokemon Pursuit nails Latias/Gengar/other frail Pokemon that will switch out that are weak to Dark Type moves. While Crunch slams Reuniclus/Slowbro/other Bulky Pokemon that are weak to Dark Type moves.
@Volcarona, Fiery Dance > Fire Blast imo. Lets you give offensive pressure while still racking up boosts. Plus, it has a lot more PP. And one Quiver Dance lets you outspeed most things and soak up most Special Attacks anyway, meaning you can start sweeping more flexibly. Fourth slot (1st technically here) is filler. Whirlwind? Nah, go with Roost or Giga Drain. Giga Drain helps you beat some Water Types that you might otherwise have trouble with. Roost is there for reliable recovery obviously. Both of these moves help for stuff like Greninja switch-ins to heal off the damage.
Standard Volcarona is Timid. 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe. (source) That may seem very odd, but Quiver Dance relinquishes the need for investment since it boosts Sp. Def too. So if you invest in physical defense you become overall bulkier and can beat many threats the 252 / 252 Volcarona cannot (I read about this somewhere once, but unfortunately I can't remember any of the examples other than the 1 mentioned below). It's up to you either way on what set you run, but please don't make him a phazer. There's no need for that. If you do, what specifically are you planning on phazing? Because I can't think of anything that wouldn't just KO you first or lose 1 on 1 normally anyway. TL;DR, it won't ever be of use to you.
After 1 Quiver Dance, Greninja's Hydro Pump cannot OHKO. But a +1 Bug Buzz will KO Greninja after Stealth Rock or Life Orb damage. And a +1 Giga Drain or +2 Bug Buzz will OHKO obviously. If Azumarill switches in on your first Quiver Dance, it will OHKO you with Waterfall. And you can't kill it with a +1 Giga Drain. But if you have 2 Quiver Dances under your belt you could Giga Drain before it gets a chance to hit you. A Choice Banded Aqua Jet is guaranteed to OHKO the set you currently are considering. That is the one example I can remember. This means Azumarill can beat Volcorona no matter how many boosts you have. Whereas with the set I am pushing, a +2 Volcorona will beat Azumarill, but only if you run Giga Drain obviously. It's worth knowing these things, so remember them and play accordingly.
Any other criticism, Clerics are over-rated. You will just have to wait and see how Umbreon works out for you. I prefer Defog for a more reliable way to get rid of Rocks. But just know how to play Donphan, he can't take special attacks, and is a tank, not a wall. Meaning he can only take so many hits.
Overall, your team looks pretty solid though. I ran a team with Volcorona and Gyarados once and it worked very well. Some teams I would notice just had no answer to one or the other so I would just lead with them and get a clean sweep off the bat. It's worthwhile if you can get 1-2+ KO's before you drop. It's odd to start off like that, but every once in a while you will see the opportunity and a 2 for 1 special is always worth it. You'll just have to play it and see how it works for ya. Good luck, bud.
That's pretty much the route I was thinking for TTar, good to know on a couple of those points and I'll lock it in.
With Volca', you'd go Giga instead of Roost, though? Considering it. Less recovery but it hits, too. (I actually nerfed Whirlwind. See: First post edit.)
And oh, really? Hm. Interesting. Also if I invest in HP and do end up running Roost over Giga, that'd be a plus there. I'll give Timid HP/Def/Spd a try, yeah. 'Cause Aqua Jet would be a problem, yeah. If Azu pops up, I'd maybe try and switch to Venu, dunno. (Again, going to have to play around with how things actually turn out in battles.)
Yeah. In the first post, I replaced Umbreon for Dual Screens Magic Bounce Espeon. But I do get the Defog deal. Hm. And yeah. With another EQ on my team, RS would be the only reason I'd send Donphan back out unless I didn't feel there was a threat / sort of needed to. (Or if their SR user was down. Still risky, though.)
And appreciate it~
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:34 am
The one problem is that I can't give you a larvesta that knows giga drain as that is a transfer only move; aside from that, I agree with pretty much everything archolite said.
I do have the Larvitar (max IVs in everything but speed), Bulbasaur (max IV in everything but attack and speed, knows giga drain and has chlorophyll), Larvesta (max IVs in everything but Sp Def), and an Eevee (timid, knows wish, max IV in everything but attack).
I tried for sp def on the larvesta and for speed on the bulbasaur, but after many batches of eggs I was unable to do so and I'm moving on to my other projects. I'm still at work, but I'll be home in a few hours and I'm free to trade for the rest of the night after that.
Hunter of the dusk Crew
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DarkKingJilly
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:50 pm
It's great to see the community help people with their teams like this.
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