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 Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:48 pm
OutkasTeen flyingemu27 OutkasTeen i now take this post back, because neither one of us can use the bible to prove the point, and you don't believe science, and my evidence is all science, so pretty much you have no evidence, and wouldn't consider scientific evidence, so this is an endless debate, no matter how many people agree with either side I am willing to accept evidence, but remember that any theory is not scientific evidence. And it's all the theories that I have problems with. Everyone can agree that work = force x distance. Everyone can believe that the Actual Mechanical Advantage of a machine is always less than it's Ideal Mechanical Advantage due to friction. These things are solid facts that were observed, tested, and proven. Not everybody can believe that nothing one day exploded and formed the universe trillions of years ago. Why? Because it's a theory, and it is not proven. The job of science is to observe facts in nature, not write the history of the universe using two or three small facts that slightly back it up. That's all that I was saying. If you have any evidence, go ahead and share it. But if it's a theory, just please don't use it because it proves nothing. 3nodding ya, but what i say is scientif proof could be "theory" to you, and that does make this argument useful, all i'm saying is that maybe and attempt to put what you learn in school and what you know from the bible together isn't bad Dp u go 2 public school?
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Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 8:36 pm
OutkasTeen flyingemu27 OutkasTeen i now take this post back, because neither one of us can use the bible to prove the point, and you don't believe science, and my evidence is all science, so pretty much you have no evidence, and wouldn't consider scientific evidence, so this is an endless debate, no matter how many people agree with either side I am willing to accept evidence, but remember that any theory is not scientific evidence. And it's all the theories that I have problems with. Everyone can agree that work = force x distance. Everyone can believe that the Actual Mechanical Advantage of a machine is always less than it's Ideal Mechanical Advantage due to friction. These things are solid facts that were observed, tested, and proven. Not everybody can believe that nothing one day exploded and formed the universe trillions of years ago. Why? Because it's a theory, and it is not proven. The job of science is to observe facts in nature, not write the history of the universe using two or three small facts that slightly back it up. That's all that I was saying. If you have any evidence, go ahead and share it. But if it's a theory, just please don't use it because it proves nothing. 3nodding ya, but what i say is scientif proof could be "theory" to you, and that does make this argument useful, all i'm saying is that maybe and attempt to put what you learn in school and what you know from the bible together isn't bad Well it's kind of hard to argue on what is a theory or not. If the statement is titled "The _____ Theory", then it is a theory. It's that simple. And I agree that scientific facts and the bible can do good things together. 3nodding
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:28 am
Most things that are theories would become law, if we could see it happen. The same goes viceversa for laws. Examples:
Einstein's Theory of General Relativity might as well be a law. Simply because we can't see it while its processes are taking place doesn't mean they don't happen. The Theory of General Relativity is the basis for all modern cosmologies and has never been disproven, but it won't ever become a law because it's not something we can observe.
The Law of Conservation of Energy should not be a law for the same reason as the above. That law is merely an assumption, because nobody has ever seen energy created (even though the idea of an expanding universe absolutely requires the creation of both matter and energy... but by who? Hmmm.... I know! Pick me!)
Hope that helps a bit regarding what is and is not scientific evidence.
And thejesusfreak, why does it matter if OutkasTeen goes to public school or not? Are you trying to say that his science teacher is an atheist liar and private schools are the only ones who teach truth? Because if so, don't even try it.
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:18 pm
thejesusfreak OutkasTeen flyingemu27 OutkasTeen i now take this post back, because neither one of us can use the bible to prove the point, and you don't believe science, and my evidence is all science, so pretty much you have no evidence, and wouldn't consider scientific evidence, so this is an endless debate, no matter how many people agree with either side I am willing to accept evidence, but remember that any theory is not scientific evidence. And it's all the theories that I have problems with. Everyone can agree that work = force x distance. Everyone can believe that the Actual Mechanical Advantage of a machine is always less than it's Ideal Mechanical Advantage due to friction. These things are solid facts that were observed, tested, and proven. Not everybody can believe that nothing one day exploded and formed the universe trillions of years ago. Why? Because it's a theory, and it is not proven. The job of science is to observe facts in nature, not write the history of the universe using two or three small facts that slightly back it up. That's all that I was saying. If you have any evidence, go ahead and share it. But if it's a theory, just please don't use it because it proves nothing. 3nodding ya, but what i say is scientif proof could be "theory" to you, and that does make this argument useful, all i'm saying is that maybe and attempt to put what you learn in school and what you know from the bible together isn't bad Dp u go 2 public school? I'm not going to comment on that for the reason that that question doesn't change anything
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LearningtoBreath63 Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:58 pm
Lady Hero sean.co.uk I think that the Bible was written literally but that some of it no longer applies (ex. "speaking in tongues" is no longer necessary to spread the gospel). Actually, it is. If we only printed the bible in english, and christians only talked in english, how would spanish and chinese and african and all those people hear the word? I also think that everything in the Bible was written for our benefit right now. God is all-knowing. He knew what would be happening in the world at this moment, and knew what we'd need in a book that would be our guide. So he gave it to us. There are also two kinds of tongues. Paul speaks of a tongue that you get when you recieve the Holy Spirit and no man can understand. It is a conversation with the man and God.
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:36 pm
Imotoku Lady Hero sean.co.uk I think that the Bible was written literally but that some of it no longer applies (ex. "speaking in tongues" is no longer necessary to spread the gospel). Actually, it is. If we only printed the bible in english, and christians only talked in english, how would spanish and chinese and african and all those people hear the word? I also think that everything in the Bible was written for our benefit right now. God is all-knowing. He knew what would be happening in the world at this moment, and knew what we'd need in a book that would be our guide. So he gave it to us. There are also two kinds of tongues. Paul speaks of a tongue that you get when you recieve the Holy Spirit and no man can understand. It is a conversation with the man and God. Yeah, I've never seen that happen, but you've told me and kijudo has told me that you guys have seen that happen. eek
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:48 pm
flyingemu27 Imotoku Lady Hero sean.co.uk I think that the Bible was written literally but that some of it no longer applies (ex. "speaking in tongues" is no longer necessary to spread the gospel). Actually, it is. If we only printed the bible in english, and christians only talked in english, how would spanish and chinese and african and all those people hear the word? I also think that everything in the Bible was written for our benefit right now. God is all-knowing. He knew what would be happening in the world at this moment, and knew what we'd need in a book that would be our guide. So he gave it to us. There are also two kinds of tongues. Paul speaks of a tongue that you get when you recieve the Holy Spirit and no man can understand. It is a conversation with the man and God. Yeah, I've never seen that happen, but you've told me and kijudo has told me that you guys have seen that happen. eek My pastor does it. It is really cool. It sounds like this hbnosrhtnoisdfvoiusahdnviuhsrnvouiv
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:53 pm
I asked my pastor about this a few days ago and this is the reply I got back:ELCA Lutheran Pastor First of all, I want you to know that you are asking the types of deep questions
that people spend their entire lives debating, so nothing is as easy as saying
it is this way or that way. There are a lot of questions when we study about
God, but not many answers. Personally, I think I (and most people) would have
had a hard time getting along with Jesus. You don't have to read very far into
the New Testament to see that most of the time, when people come to Jesus with a
question, he doesn't usually flat out answer it. He usually tells a story or
answers a question with another question. I am not patient enough for that.
I say all that to tell you that from my perspective, your cousin is right, and
so are you. Your cousin is right in that much of both the Old and New Testament
was handed down in the form of stories before someone decided that it would be a
good idea to write it down. You are right in that the Bible is indeed inspired
by God.
Even conservative (those who believe in inerrancy--that everything in the Bible
is precisely accurate) Bible scholars agree that the stories in Genesis, Exodus,
Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy (sometimes called the Pentateuch) were handed
down through Hebrew families because it is believed by many that Moses wrote
these books. Adam & Eve, Noah and his family were all long dead by the time
Moses came on the scene, so the only way he could know about these characters is
a combination of stories handed down, and inspiration from God.
In the New Testament, there is less agreement, but what makes the most sense to
me is this: Some Bible scholars say that the earliest Gospel to be written is
Mark, and Mark, based on some of the historical information he includes, had to
have been written sometime after 60 AD, which is 30 years after Jesus died and
rose! John, the latest Gospel, was probably written between 50 and 60 years
after the resurrection! So of course, if these scholars are right, the stories
of Jesus were handed down too until someone decided to write them down.
Now, make no mistake about it, in spite of the fact that these stories were
handed down, I believe God was completely involved in inspiring those who put
pen to paper and wrote our Gospels. I believe that for many reasons, but maybe
one of the biggest reasons is this: If God was not involved in the writing of
the Gospels, there is NO way they would appear as they do today. In other
words, if some person arbitrarily decided to write "a Bible," it would not sound
the way "The Bible" does. If you ever read some other man-made Bibles--the Book
of Mormon, the Koran, the Vedas of Hinduism, etc., they come off as very
moralistic. In other words, they say that if you are good, then God will be
good to you! There is a very good reason for this: Man-made religions are
meant to keep people in line, by guaranteeing a reward for good behavior. Not
so with the God-inspired Bible! It is all about a relationship. A relationship
that God wants with us in which he takes us as we ar
e, sinful, having failed him over and over and over, and still he shows us mercy
and gives us a fresh start.
The next thing that tells me that the Bible is inspired is this: If I were
going to write "A Bible," how would I write myself into the story? Well,
chances are, that I would portray myself as a hero, don't you think? For
example, how does Joseph Smith come off in the Book of Mormon? He is a hero.
How does Mohammed come off in the Koran? He is an honorable and noble prophet.
BUT, how do the disciples come off looking in the New Testament? They are
bufoons! Peter can't keep his mouth shut, and he is always saying something
ridiculous. Thomas doubts. Peter, James and John can't stay awake in Jesus'
last hours in Gethsemane. They all run away, scared, trying to save their own
skin when Jesus is arrested. Peter denies even knowing Jesus to get away.
Moses is a stuttering murderer. Jonah is a whiner. So is Elijah when Ahab and
Jezebel come after him. Time after time, people in the Bible come off looking
bad. But the beauty of it is, it doesn't really matter, beca
use they know, that ultimately, God the one true God and creator of us all will
still love and forgive them in a heartbeat if they ask him. And THIS, at its
heart, is what every story in the Bible screams out to us--because God inspired
it: God loves you! No matter what you have done, no matter how you have failed
him, God made you and died to redeem you, and wants a relationship with you.
The final and ultimate proof to me that God inspired the Bible is "The Gospel."
In the story of Jesus, we have God behaving in a way that makes NO sense
according to human ways of understanding, but that makes complete sense if you
understand what God is trying to achieve. I mean specifically, Jesus is God
becoming a human being. All other religions reject this as completely
un-God-like. God is perfect, all-knowing, and all powerful, God is above and
beyond everything, God is transcendent. There is NO way God would lower himself
to become a human being: So says Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. But in
Christianity, God goes even farther than that--not only does God become a human,
but God allows humanity to kill him in his human form in the most gruesome and
painful and humiliating death the Romans can come up with! Now, according to
the way humanity thinks, this makes absolutely NO sense. But consider that God
desires a relationship with us (not the other way around,
as in other religions). And God knows that somehow, he has to get our attention
and demonstrate how much he loves us--the extent to which he is willing to go to
have a relationship with us. How better to do that than to become one of us,
experience what we experience, and ultimately die at our hands--for our benefit?
It is the perfect plan--only God could have come up with it!
Wow, talk about rambling. I hope that all made sense.
Now, to address the stickiest question you ask: "Is the Bible meant to be taken
literally?" And I think what you are asking here is "Is everything in the Bible
factual--did it happen exactly the way it is written?" Well, there is tons of
disagreement on this, so I will have to once again give you MY opinion, and
again, that is all it is, my opinion--you will have to make up your own mind.
The short answer is, I believe "no." Now, at the risk of sounding like I am
contradicting myself, if you ask me if I think the Bible is true, and I will
say, "Yes, absolutely, the Bible is full of truth."
When God inspired the men (and maybe a few women) to write down the books that
make up our Bible, God was not concerned with giving us a history book. Keep in
mind what I said before, God's whole purpose in doing what he does is to reveal
who he is, and his desire to have a relationship with us--not give us an
accurate history book--that is why he gave us minds to think, so scientists such
as archaeologists, botanists, and paleontologists can study the earth and tell
us about our past.
Of course, the place most people look for discrepancies is the creation story.
And there are some glaring questions there: According to the Bible the earth is
8000 years old, tops. According to scientists, the universe has been around for
millions or maybe even billions of years. Then, how do you explain the
dinosaur- and human-like bones we find which appear to have existed well before
8000 years ago? Of course, the folks who want the Bible to be a
historically-accurate account have come up with different explanations: That
God created the earth old (which seems pretty far-fetched, and why would God do
such a thing?), or that because of the weight of the water pushing down on the
land during the flood, it made it appear as if these bones were older than they
actually were (I am not sure I understand how that would work).
For me, it doesn't really matter. I believe if God wanted to, he could have
created everything that exists in the blink of an eye, or in 7 days, or over the
course of billions of years. The Bible is clear that time is immaterial to God.
Did a man named Adam and a woman who God created out of one of Adam's ribs,
named Eve really even exist? Maybe, but you see, it really doesn't matter.
What matters is the story. Because in that story we learn that God created us.
And that he wants a relationship with us. And that we, if given a chance,
sabotage that relationship. Yet in spite of that, God still loves us and puts a
plan into effect to save us from ourselves and our love of Sin.
In my mind, if people are trying to show that the Bible is NOT a history book, a
much better example are the Gospels. If you read the Gospels, you see 4 very
different versions of the story of Jesus' life. If God wanted to give us a
historically accurate book, then I would think the stories would be in the same
order in all the Gospels--but that is NOT the case. The Gospel-writers were not
concerned with what happened in what order--30+ years after Jesus, they probably
did not even know the order. But what they did know is that through Jesus, God
showed us just how far he was willing to go to have a relationship with us--to
the point of becoming a human, and even dying on the cross. And this is the
story that each of them tried to tell to the best of their ability given God's
inspiration.
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:28 pm
Wow, thanks for asking your pastor and sharing with us his answer. He really knows a lot. eek He can really put together a point. 3nodding Although I disagree with some of the things in the second half, it doesn't matter (like he said.) What matters is what happens, and the story that takes place. I don't think our salvation depends on whether or not we think the world is billions or thousands of years old. xd Thanks again for sharing your pastor's words with us, Ginger Snapple. biggrin
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:58 pm
For the speaking in tongues things I want to add my two cents. I can speak in tognues and almost all my friends can speak in tongues, as well as a lot of the people in my youth church. Not the kind thats a spirtual gifting where you speak a message in tongues and someone interperts for everyone else. But your personal prayer language that you get when you get baptized in the Holy Spirit. And yea so I can speak in tongues. And I prayed with my friend this pass January to baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and that was so kool because she really started speaking in tongues! I was like freaking out because she was Baptized with God's Spirit and I helped her! Omg if you ever get to witness it's amazing! Just wow!
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:56 pm
SaraRenee For the speaking in tongues things I want to add my two cents. I can speak in tognues and almost all my friends can speak in tongues, as well as a lot of the people in my youth church. Not the kind thats a spirtual gifting where you speak a message in tongues and someone interperts for everyone else. But your personal prayer language that you get when you get baptized in the Holy Spirit. And yea so I can speak in tongues. And I prayed with my friend this pass January to baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and that was so kool because she really started speaking in tongues! I was like freaking out because she was Baptized with God's Spirit and I helped her! Omg if you ever get to witness it's amazing! Just wow! That is amazing! How come I have never seen that? crying I think I might need to find a new church, cause I have never seen something like that at my church, which might mean that something isn't right with my church. eek Imotoku, what church do you go to? I wanna go sometime! (We live in the same city).
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:01 pm
SaraRenee For the speaking in tongues things I want to add my two cents. I can speak in tognues and almost all my friends can speak in tongues, as well as a lot of the people in my youth church. Not the kind thats a spirtual gifting where you speak a message in tongues and someone interperts for everyone else. But your personal prayer language that you get when you get baptized in the Holy Spirit. And yea so I can speak in tongues. And I prayed with my friend this pass January to baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and that was so kool because she really started speaking in tongues! I was like freaking out because she was Baptized with God's Spirit and I helped her! Omg if you ever get to witness it's amazing! Just wow! Yeah that is what im talking about. Most of the people in my church can do it, but i cant yet. It is really cool.
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:07 pm
Imotoku don't get discouraged about though. It's just a test of your faith. One of my bestfriends she got prayed for like 5 or 6 times before she got it. You can't have the mind set that "If God is real I'll be baptized." Your mindset ahs to be "Because God loves me and I have put my faith in him, I will be baptized with his spirit." Just keep your faith up adn you'll get past this.
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:29 pm
SaraRenee Imotoku don't get discouraged about though. It's just a test of your faith. One of my bestfriends she got prayed for like 5 or 6 times before she got it. You can't have the mind set that "If God is real I'll be baptized." Your mindset ahs to be "Because God loves me and I have put my faith in him, I will be baptized with his spirit." Just keep your faith up adn you'll get past this. Thanks. Your right.
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:13 pm
Regarding the original topic ::ahem::
There are a few key things I would like to ask you.
If God chose to use evolution, and if ALL of the millions of years that He would have created it in would've been sin free, and it says after EVERY day "And God saw that it was good" right? Then things would've HAD to have died, RIGHT?
But why would God say "it is good" of something that died, constantly? My heart would've been suffering through millions of years of torment watching my poor creation struggle, and the weaker beings die. A good God would not have called death good. Because REMEMBER creation happened BEFORE sin. "The wages of sin is death" so... how would that work?
Now, I have been adamant about this point... but it is not something I'd die for.
I would give all that I have, my life my all, for Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior. If you put a bullet to my head and said "say the world was created in 6,000,000 years" I'd say "well, ok, the world was created in 6,000,000 years." But if someone said to me, gun to my head, "Say that Jesus Christ isn't the only way to heaven." I'd say "I will never deny Jesus." And I'd be missing a few facial features.
God did not call us to live for a set of ideals, He called us to live for TRUTH! biggrin
I hope this encourages you, and makes you think, and smile -- to think that the Almighty who created this universe... HOWEVER He did wink
For His glory and our joy... it's simply overwhelmingly beautiful.
Live for truth/life/LOVE!
Adios amigos.
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