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David2074

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:18 pm


Irako of the Desert
David2074
What is the point of this?
It sounds a bit like you are wanting people to do your homework or something. smile
But, I'll answer your questions. lol


(1) No particular reason except that I made this thread during my DEAF404 class break last week. We were having a class discussion about audism and what was the difference between manifestations of audism and audism itself. We were also talking about ways to identify audistic behaviors in ourselves. It was just a bunch of questions that I thought would be fun to stick in the Quizzes and Spam subforum and kind of get a feel for what other guild members know about Deaf people and Deaf culture. Don't worry, nobody's doing my homework.

I liked some of the stuff you put in yours, and I'm going to respond to particular parts.


Quote:
What language(s) do Deaf people in the United States use?
Most use American Sign Language (ASL) but some use Signing Exact English (SEE). On the whole a lot of deaf people kind of look down on SEE but it has its uses where exact verbal to sign language translations are necessary such as in court.

In terms of written or spoken (yes, some deaf people can speak) I'd say mostly English but then I'm English speaking so my observations may be biased by who I hang out with.

(2) It bothers me that courts have such a rigid protocol about interpreting sign (And I use sign here to cover all signing methods as well as ASL). I wish they would get it that ASL=/= English exactly and that insisting that interpreters sign only what has been said exactly is impossible. We talked about that in another Deaf Studies class as being an area that needed improvement. I sometimes wonder if other minority language interpreters in courts have the same sort of difficulty.

Quote:
What's the difference between a deaf person and a Deaf person?
IMO nothing except for the beginning of a written sentence. I'm guessing you had something in mind when asking such as attitude or something. The capitalization is not something I've seen deaf people use.

(3) Really? I think it's used more in academic discourse about Deafhood than everyday conversation (unless, of course, your conversation is about Deafhood). Have you ever seen the sign that's the 5-handshape with the thumbs on the ears, palms front, and the hands rotate backwards, meaning "deaf and proud of it"? That's Deaf as opposed to deaf. Deaf is used to talk about people who have a strong connection with Deaf culture, whereas deaf people have very little relationship to Deaf culture.

Quote:
What would you do if your baby was born deaf?
I'd do my best to raise it in both worlds. Deaf kids raised all hearing often feel disconnected from their own kind. On the other hand kids raised totally deaf often end up lacking communication skills that help them succeed in a predominantly hearing world.

(4) What do you mean?

Quote:
Should d/Deaf people learn how to speak? Why or why not?
If they can, yes. They end up living in a mostly hearing world and the reality of life is it helps even though some deaf folks would get indignant by hearing me say that.

How easy or practical it is to learn to speak depends on the deaf person. Were they born deaf? Just a year or two makes a huge difference. Are they 100% deaf or can they hear some sounds / tones with amplification? Is the schooling available? And so on...

(5) I would disagree with you on the first part. Rather than having Deaf people accommodate the ways of hearing people, hearing people should try to adjust their ways to fit Deaf people. And when I say that, I really mean "go learn some ASL!" I encourage all my friends to do so, because I think that if the whole world signed, that'd be a huge step in solving a lot of the issues plaguing Deaf education.

The second part I do agree with, though I would argue that the difficulty of learning speech is not completely dependent on the Deaf person's deafness. It would also depend on how the program they select goes about teaching speech and whether the program matches the Deaf person's educational requirements.


Quote:
Define audism.
Audism describes the mentality that to be able to hear and to speak is necessarily better and leads to a higher quality of life.
(Though I had to look it up to be sure)

It is also associated with having a superior attitude.
The first part of it (without the attitude) I agree with. I think on the whole people who possess all of their senses often have a better quality of life. I bases this on the many deaf people and some blind people I have known. It does not mean they are inferior but I do often see them struggle a bit in life.

(6) That definition is the one we were discussing in class last week. My professor ended up sharing a definition that he'd thought up for some project he's working on, and it was this: "Audism is the process of humanizing the ability to hear and speak while simultaneously dehumanizing the inability to the hear and speak." He has some pretty extreme opinions, though he tells us that outside of that classroom, he moderates them so as not to cause unnecessary conflict with other people who generally don't have the same amount of education and experience he has. I prefer to think of audism as discrimination based on one's ability to hear so it gets put in with all the other -isms (classism, racism, sexism, etc.)

Quote:
Have you ever taken any ASL classes or Deaf Studies classes?
Technically no since I learned my ASL from deaf people.
I have TAUGHT ASL classes though. lol! And done interpreting for the state.

(7) Really? What level do you teach? Are you a certified interpreter? What program did you go through?

Quote:
What does DPN stand for?
Had to look it up but assuming you are referring to -
DPN may refer to: Deaf President Now, a 1988 student protest at Gallaudet University to force the university to hire a deaf president

( cool I threw this question in because it always pops up in some form or another in all my Deaf Studies classes. I know about it. I also know that the last kerfuffle about a president of Gallaudet was about whether she was Deaf enough. Most hearing people who have no clue about ASL or anything Deaf-related seemed to think this meant that she still had residual hearing, but my understanding of it was that she wasn't culturally Deaf enough for the protestors.


You made a lot of comments so I'm going to cheat and just number them rather than make my head hurt redoing all the quotes. smile

1. I didn't really think I was doing your homework. It just seemed like an odd list of questions out of the blue. smile

2. I don't have a good answer for what's best in courts.
I do think SEE has it's purposes. If nothing else it is good for teaching deaf people the finer points of English such as how hearing people word things and why. I can't recall a handy example but I know I have used it in that way.

3. Deaf. Really, never heard it that way or seen the sign (or not recognizing the sign from the description). When I was spending the most time around deaf people back in the 80s they were just my deaf friends. I don't recall any discussion about whether I or they were 'Deaf' enough. They were just my friends / roommate / girlfriend.

4. See 5

5. Sorry, but I guess we disagree on this one. IMO saying, "hearing people should try to adjust their ways to fit Deaf people" sounds rather naive and idealistic. Quite simply it ain't gonna happen. Would you tell a Chinese person everyone in the US should learn some Chinese rather than them learning English? Or same idea for a Mexican, Ukrainian and so on?

I get it that most deaf people in America are Americans but the reality is English is the unofficial 'official' language of our country. In my experience from travels to other countries is a large percentage of the rest of the world also speaks English. To me it is just unrealistic to expect all these people to learn ASL so a much smaller number of deaf people do not have to learn English.

Basically I feel the minority should try to accommodate the majority rather than the other way around. It is nice when there is some meeting in the middle but not realistic to expect it. I also put this into practice in my overseas travels. I did my best to learn at least some words of the foreign country to ask for what I wanted in their language. I appreciated it when they spoke English but I did not expect it for feel slighted when they did not.

Yes, it would be great for deaf people if everyone took the time to learn ASL.
It would also be great for autistic people if everyone took time to get educated about the autism / aspergers / dyslexic / auditory spectrum and same idea for MS, cancer, (insert a whole bunch of other special needs situations here).

My answer to number 4 is because of number 5. I've seen deaf people struggle in life dealing with the hearing world with poor English skills. I've had people close to me who are good at ASL but have a terrible time reading rental contracts, credit card agreements and other legal documents and sometimes 'easier' stuff. They usually understand if someone interprets each paragraph for them but real life does not work that way. IMO it is better to empower the person to read them for him/herself instead of being reliant upon other people (hearing people) to translate it for them.

I don't want to get too personal about it by posting specifics on the internet about people I know other than to say when the communication was in text only there have been times when I explained something 'official' pretty plainly and still had to explain it again in person with sign language before the person 'got it'. The text wording was simple language most any hearing person would have understood first time. I've seen that sort of frustration over and over in some folks who are almost pure ASL.

(6) In my experience I have not seen a lot of 'audism' in the sense of discrimination against or dislike of someone just because they are deaf. What I HAVE witnessed is sales clerks etc. giving less service not due to 'looking down' but because they were embarrassed they did not know how to communicate.

What I have also witnessed is the reverse of audism. 'Deafism' or what ever the correct word would be. By that I mean deaf people who are so proud of their deafness they have an attitude towards hearing people and talk smack about them. If you frequent many online forums full of deaf people you have probably witnessed some of this.

(7) Don't get too excited. I didn't teach in a college or anything. I taught sign language to some friends on land and some ship mates at sea. The classes were small and informal but they learned enough to at least enjoy casual conversations.

See the part above where you said you think the world would be better off for deaf people if everyone learned some ASL. While I do not think it is realistic to expect everyone to do that I agree it is nice that some do and I tried to help make that happen for some of them.

I have no idea what my level was because it was not 'official'. I did have a friend tell me I'd become more fluent at ASL in under a year than she had in four years of college. On the other had I had immersion going for me. Other than while at work in the Navy (we were in Bremerton in a long overhaul at the time) I spent virtually all my time around deaf people. My roommate and other friends.

(8 ) I don't have a problem with the students wanting a deaf president but I suspect those who have been successful had pretty good English skills (see my comments on 4 & 5 above). Unless they have assistants handling a lot of things for them it seems they would have to be skilled at communicating with hearing people, ability to read legal contracts and so on.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:59 pm


David2074
Irako of the Desert
David2074
What is the point of this?
It sounds a bit like you are wanting people to do your homework or something. smile
But, I'll answer your questions. lol


(1) No particular reason except that I made this thread during my DEAF404 class break last week. We were having a class discussion about audism and what was the difference between manifestations of audism and audism itself. We were also talking about ways to identify audistic behaviors in ourselves. It was just a bunch of questions that I thought would be fun to stick in the Quizzes and Spam subforum and kind of get a feel for what other guild members know about Deaf people and Deaf culture. Don't worry, nobody's doing my homework.

I liked some of the stuff you put in yours, and I'm going to respond to particular parts.


Quote:
What language(s) do Deaf people in the United States use?
Most use American Sign Language (ASL) but some use Signing Exact English (SEE). On the whole a lot of deaf people kind of look down on SEE but it has its uses where exact verbal to sign language translations are necessary such as in court.

In terms of written or spoken (yes, some deaf people can speak) I'd say mostly English but then I'm English speaking so my observations may be biased by who I hang out with.

(2) It bothers me that courts have such a rigid protocol about interpreting sign (And I use sign here to cover all signing methods as well as ASL). I wish they would get it that ASL=/= English exactly and that insisting that interpreters sign only what has been said exactly is impossible. We talked about that in another Deaf Studies class as being an area that needed improvement. I sometimes wonder if other minority language interpreters in courts have the same sort of difficulty.

Quote:
What's the difference between a deaf person and a Deaf person?
IMO nothing except for the beginning of a written sentence. I'm guessing you had something in mind when asking such as attitude or something. The capitalization is not something I've seen deaf people use.

(3) Really? I think it's used more in academic discourse about Deafhood than everyday conversation (unless, of course, your conversation is about Deafhood). Have you ever seen the sign that's the 5-handshape with the thumbs on the ears, palms front, and the hands rotate backwards, meaning "deaf and proud of it"? That's Deaf as opposed to deaf. Deaf is used to talk about people who have a strong connection with Deaf culture, whereas deaf people have very little relationship to Deaf culture.

Quote:
What would you do if your baby was born deaf?
I'd do my best to raise it in both worlds. Deaf kids raised all hearing often feel disconnected from their own kind. On the other hand kids raised totally deaf often end up lacking communication skills that help them succeed in a predominantly hearing world.

(4) What do you mean?

Quote:
Should d/Deaf people learn how to speak? Why or why not?
If they can, yes. They end up living in a mostly hearing world and the reality of life is it helps even though some deaf folks would get indignant by hearing me say that.

How easy or practical it is to learn to speak depends on the deaf person. Were they born deaf? Just a year or two makes a huge difference. Are they 100% deaf or can they hear some sounds / tones with amplification? Is the schooling available? And so on...

(5) I would disagree with you on the first part. Rather than having Deaf people accommodate the ways of hearing people, hearing people should try to adjust their ways to fit Deaf people. And when I say that, I really mean "go learn some ASL!" I encourage all my friends to do so, because I think that if the whole world signed, that'd be a huge step in solving a lot of the issues plaguing Deaf education.

The second part I do agree with, though I would argue that the difficulty of learning speech is not completely dependent on the Deaf person's deafness. It would also depend on how the program they select goes about teaching speech and whether the program matches the Deaf person's educational requirements.


Quote:
Define audism.
Audism describes the mentality that to be able to hear and to speak is necessarily better and leads to a higher quality of life.
(Though I had to look it up to be sure)

It is also associated with having a superior attitude.
The first part of it (without the attitude) I agree with. I think on the whole people who possess all of their senses often have a better quality of life. I bases this on the many deaf people and some blind people I have known. It does not mean they are inferior but I do often see them struggle a bit in life.

(6) That definition is the one we were discussing in class last week. My professor ended up sharing a definition that he'd thought up for some project he's working on, and it was this: "Audism is the process of humanizing the ability to hear and speak while simultaneously dehumanizing the inability to the hear and speak." He has some pretty extreme opinions, though he tells us that outside of that classroom, he moderates them so as not to cause unnecessary conflict with other people who generally don't have the same amount of education and experience he has. I prefer to think of audism as discrimination based on one's ability to hear so it gets put in with all the other -isms (classism, racism, sexism, etc.)

Quote:
Have you ever taken any ASL classes or Deaf Studies classes?
Technically no since I learned my ASL from deaf people.
I have TAUGHT ASL classes though. lol! And done interpreting for the state.

(7) Really? What level do you teach? Are you a certified interpreter? What program did you go through?

Quote:
What does DPN stand for?
Had to look it up but assuming you are referring to -
DPN may refer to: Deaf President Now, a 1988 student protest at Gallaudet University to force the university to hire a deaf president

( cool I threw this question in because it always pops up in some form or another in all my Deaf Studies classes. I know about it. I also know that the last kerfuffle about a president of Gallaudet was about whether she was Deaf enough. Most hearing people who have no clue about ASL or anything Deaf-related seemed to think this meant that she still had residual hearing, but my understanding of it was that she wasn't culturally Deaf enough for the protestors.


You made a lot of comments so I'm going to cheat and just number them rather than make my head hurt redoing all the quotes. smile

That's quite alright. I had a feeling that would happen.

Quote:
1. I didn't really think I was doing your homework. It just seemed like an odd list of questions out of the blue. smile

I was taking a page out of Elyzia's book here. She's posted a lot of other quizzes that are a bunch of loosely related questions.

Quote:
2. I don't have a good answer for what's best in courts.
I do think SEE has it's purposes. If nothing else it is good for teaching deaf people the finer points of English such as how hearing people word things and why. I can't recall a handy example but I know I have used it in that way.

As a tool for teaching English, I agree that SEE can be useful. For court purposes, it is not the ideal solution.

Quote:
3. Deaf. Really, never heard it that way or seen the sign (or not recognizing the sign from the description). When I was spending the most time around deaf people back in the 80s they were just my deaf friends. I don't recall any discussion about whether I or they were 'Deaf' enough. They were just my friends / roommate / girlfriend.

Like I said, I've only really seen it in books. I can give you titles if you're really interested, they're on my shelves somewhere around here.

Quote:
4. See 5

5. Sorry, but I guess we disagree on this one. IMO saying, "hearing people should try to adjust their ways to fit Deaf people" sounds rather naive and idealistic. Quite simply it ain't gonna happen. Would you tell a Chinese person everyone in the US should learn some Chinese rather than them learning English? Or same idea for a Mexican, Ukrainian and so on?

I get it that most deaf people in America are Americans but the reality is English is the unofficial 'official' language of our country. In my experience from travels to other countries is a large percentage of the rest of the world also speaks English. To me it is just unrealistic to expect all these people to learn ASL so a much smaller number of deaf people do not have to learn English.

Basically I feel the minority should try to accommodate the majority rather than the other way around. It is nice when there is some meeting in the middle but not realistic to expect it. I also put this into practice in my overseas travels. I did my best to learn at least some words of the foreign country to ask for what I wanted in their language. I appreciated it when they spoke English but I did not expect it for feel slighted when they did not.

Yes, it would be great for deaf people if everyone took the time to learn ASL.
It would also be great for autistic people if everyone took time to get educated about the autism / aspergers / dyslexic / auditory spectrum and same idea for MS, cancer, (insert a whole bunch of other special needs situations here).

My answer to number 4 is because of number 5. I've seen deaf people struggle in life dealing with the hearing world with poor English skills. I've had people close to me who are good at ASL but have a terrible time reading rental contracts, credit card agreements and other legal documents and sometimes 'easier' stuff. They usually understand if someone interprets each paragraph for them but real life does not work that way. IMO it is better to empower the person to read them for him/herself instead of being reliant upon other people (hearing people) to translate it for them.

I don't want to get too personal about it by posting specifics on the internet about people I know other than to say when the communication was in text only there have been times when I explained something 'official' pretty plainly and still had to explain it again in person with sign language before the person 'got it'. The text wording was simple language most any hearing person would have understood first time. I've seen that sort of frustration over and over in some folks who are almost pure ASL.

I realize that the expectation for everyone in the U.S to learn ASL is a bit ridiculous. A girl can have dreams, can't she? BUT! Google Iceland and see what their official languages are.

If I can't have everyone in the U.S. learn ASL, can I at least demand that businesses hire signers?

I'm still working out that disparity of whether I should insist that everyone learn all languages in order to have true equality or not. Such a demand is impossible if anyone ever wanted to actually accomplish something, which is the beginning of my dilemma. It is important for Deaf people to learn and understand English, yes, just like it's important for any other minority group to understand and speak English if they're living in the United States. I don't think it's necessary for Deaf people to learn how to speak or lip-read, though, just that they be able to read and write English.


Quote:
(6) In my experience I have not seen a lot of 'audism' in the sense of discrimination against or dislike of someone just because they are deaf. What I HAVE witnessed is sales clerks etc. giving less service not due to 'looking down' but because they were embarrassed they did not know how to communicate.

What I have also witnessed is the reverse of audism. 'Deafism' or what ever the correct word would be. By that I mean deaf people who are so proud of their deafness they have an attitude towards hearing people and talk smack about them. If you frequent many online forums full of deaf people you have probably witnessed some of this.

That's why I like my definition of audism better, because it doesn't have to only mean hearing people oppressing Deaf people. It can mean Deaf people discriminating against hearing people, too. And I get what you're saying, about hearing people not knowing what to do when they run into a Deaf person. This would naturally be fixed if everyone in the United States knew ASL.

Quote:
(8 ) I don't have a problem with the students wanting a deaf president but I suspect those who have been successful had pretty good English skills (see my comments on 4 & 5 above). Unless they have assistants handling a lot of things for them it seems they would have to be skilled at communicating with hearing people, ability to read legal contracts and so on.

It would be the same if I were to move to a different country where the majority of people did not speak English. I would be less successful if I didn't gain a good grasp of the power language there. Whenever you're in a place where your language is not the power language, it's important to have a good understanding of the power language, or you will struggle.  

Irako of the Desert
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:11 pm


Irako of the Desert
I don't think it's necessary for Deaf people to learn how to speak or lip-read, though, just that they be able to read and write English.

I agree but in my experience those who can speak or lip read also have a superior understanding of the reading and writing. IMO this is because of greater exposure to 'listening' to how hearing people say things. In short, greater immersion to the language.

Irako of the Desert
It would be the same if I were to move to a different country where the majority of people did not speak English. I would be less successful if I didn't gain a good grasp of the power language there. Whenever you're in a place where your language is not the power language, it's important to have a good understanding of the power language, or you will struggle.

Agreed, which is why I said if I had a deaf kid I would do my best to raise him/her in both worlds. My brother was brought up pretty much all deaf. Long story but we were not raised together. I've watched him struggle to get by in the world because of it.
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