|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:18 pm
Zen Marie Balthazar I have often wondered how much power some Christians just throw right into the hands of evil without so much as a contest or trial.
I mean if the world is divided between good and evil and both sides are struggling to overcome the other... doesn't it make the most sense not to give anything to your adversary whatsoever?
"Oh we don't have that... it's theirs. And we don't get that, it belongs to them. And we don't do that because that's theirs too."
God supposedly made everything good, right? And just like anything, you can use what you have for good or for evil. So why just give up so much to the adversary? Sometimes I think the majority of power evil has is due to how much power we just give it outright... like it's entitled to it. Sounds like your getting into how Sophia made the Demiurge and how the Demiurge took over now. ninja Wisdom what little bit of truth it had to make a god in her own image in her quest to try to understand God. Instead of facing up to her mistake she tries to hide it and gives it more power than it's due in doing so. Quote: Everything comes from God and everything God made is good. So if one honors that and does good with what God gave them... that's bad exactly how? I don't see a problem with this either. Edit: It does raise a few questions though. What is good and is it something we know (or can know) intuitively?
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:50 pm
rmcdra Zen Marie Balthazar I have often wondered how much power some Christians just throw right into the hands of evil without so much as a contest or trial.
I mean if the world is divided between good and evil and both sides are struggling to overcome the other... doesn't it make the most sense not to give anything to your adversary whatsoever?
"Oh we don't have that... it's theirs. And we don't get that, it belongs to them. And we don't do that because that's theirs too."
God supposedly made everything good, right? And just like anything, you can use what you have for good or for evil. So why just give up so much to the adversary? Sometimes I think the majority of power evil has is due to how much power we just give it outright... like it's entitled to it. Sounds like your getting into how Sophia made the Demiurge and how the Demiurge took over now. ninja Wisdom what little bit of truth it had to make a god in her own image in her quest to try to understand God. Instead of facing up to her mistake she tries to hide it and gives it more power than it's due in doing so. Quote: Everything comes from God and everything God made is good. So if one honors that and does good with what God gave them... that's bad exactly how? I don't see a problem with this either. Edit: It does raise a few questions though. What is good and is it something we know (or can know) intuitively? I think to an extent we know good and evil. There was a Yale study recently on infants (6 months to a year old I believe) to see if there was inherent knowledge of good and bad. They used a puppet show where one puppet stole something from another puppet in one scenario, and in another one puppet helped another puppet. At the end the researchers placed both puppets--the thief and the helper--before the babies and the majority chose the helpful puppet. Some even reacted as we would--albeit with simple smiles and frowns--as the scenes were happening. I always wonder though, since stumbling upon that, what does sit say of the babies who chose the thief? Are we then naturally predisposed towards good or bad? How does it correlate to the character development of these children? If raised in a family of a faith, how does this impact their perception of God, if at all? A longitudinal study is called for!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:09 pm
Mystic_Victoria Why do alot of christian people think magic is demonic? I mena didn't Moses & many others do it? Christ healed,turned water to wine,and so much more,thats a form of magic. Moses with the staff & the water,and so on. even solomon did it. Now this is coming from some one who doesn't fully believe the bible is 100% true,cause there is to many condridictions,and i find it altared,now im not saying the bible is bad xD. anyway,can some one explain to me this lol,i find it somewhat confusing,cause i think magic is very interesting. To answer the OP (your Q is awesome btw): We know from history that a lot of "magic" was really natural occurrences. I mean, lightening storms were once revered as heavenly signals, as well as volcanic eruptions, lunar and solar eclipses, the Northern Lights. Today there are scientific explanations. Even today, there are people in Haiti who believe in zombies and claim to know how to make zombies, when in fact they are putting people in induced comas who then awaken from them confused (but now convinced that they are zombies because of their culture). So, even the term "magic" has to be used with the utmost discretion because a lot of what humanity thought was magic and believes to be magic might only be natural occurrences that simply deserve more exploration to understand. I'm apart of the generation that when in Sunday school to even whisper "Harry Potter" was to be placed in the center of a prayer circle with the elder members of the congregation lay hands on you as if you were terminally ill. I'm just happy we can all laugh about it today. But what is superficially different about all the Biblical people and say Wiccans, pagans, or people who like a little wiji (sp?) in their lives is that the latter group is clearly acting on their own will. You can make potions and cast protective spells to your hearts content. But all the people in the Bible were given that gift from God--the ability to work miracles, etc. with the exception of Jesus none of them continuously displayed the ability of working miracles from birth to death; they all acknowledge that they only received it when they received the Word. And when one turns from God, it's presumed that all gifts material and spiritual are on the chopping block for recall. The gifts given from God are intended to lead that person given them and those who come in contact with them to union with God. So,I guess that's another way to know--if you don't feel the irresistible urge to go out and evangelize or go to church or just shout "I love Jesus" then your gift while awesome is from something other than the Christian god. Can I ask: Just as people in Scripture have shown to abuse their heavenly gifts and privilege to do evil, can one use gifts from non-Godly sources to do the will of God? The pagan who uses their power to heal the afflicted, are they sanctified by their act?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:32 am
Gjornia X Mystic_Victoria Why do alot of christian people think magic is demonic? I mena didn't Moses & many others do it? Christ healed,turned water to wine,and so much more,thats a form of magic. Moses with the staff & the water,and so on. even solomon did it. Now this is coming from some one who doesn't fully believe the bible is 100% true,cause there is to many condridictions,and i find it altared,now im not saying the bible is bad xD. anyway,can some one explain to me this lol,i find it somewhat confusing,cause i think magic is very interesting. To answer the OP (your Q is awesome btw): We know from history that a lot of "magic" was really natural occurrences. I mean, lightening storms were once revered as heavenly signals, as well as volcanic eruptions, lunar and solar eclipses, the Northern Lights. Today there are scientific explanations. Even today, there are people in Haiti who believe in zombies and claim to know how to make zombies, when in fact they are putting people in induced comas who then awaken from them confused (but now convinced that they are zombies because of their culture). So, even the term "magic" has to be used with the utmost discretion because a lot of what humanity thought was magic and believes to be magic might only be natural occurrences that simply deserve more exploration to understand. I'm apart of the generation that when in Sunday school to even whisper "Harry Potter" was to be placed in the center of a prayer circle with the elder members of the congregation lay hands on you as if you were terminally ill. I'm just happy we can all laugh about it today. But what is superficially different about all the Biblical people and say Wiccans, pagans, or people who like a little wiji (sp?) in their lives is that the latter group is clearly acting on their own will. You can make potions and cast protective spells to your hearts content. But all the people in the Bible were given that gift from God--the ability to work miracles, etc. with the exception of Jesus none of them continuously displayed the ability of working miracles from birth to death; they all acknowledge that they only received it when they received the Word. And when one turns from God, it's presumed that all gifts material and spiritual are on the chopping block for recall. The gifts given from God are intended to lead that person given them and those who come in contact with them to union with God. So,I guess that's another way to know--if you don't feel the irresistible urge to go out and evangelize or go to church or just shout "I love Jesus" then your gift while awesome is from something other than the Christian god. Can I ask: Just as people in Scripture have shown to abuse their heavenly gifts and privilege to do evil, can one use gifts from non-Godly sources to do the will of God? The pagan who uses their power to heal the afflicted, are they sanctified by their act? Lightning and all that weren't considered Magic,well Magic maybe from the Gods,but never really a human. but,its rare,because its possiple to do such things,as make it rain,and all that,takes great amount of energy,and belief Im interested in this because you act like God controls all,when he doesn't if that were the case in some cases it condridicts christ. there is False magic & true Magic. You don't need a God to tell you if you worship me you have the true magic. *but lord,im already doing magic,and worshiping (insert god name here) We have freewill,and our abilites,we are born with and can learn,we must learn to improve them. and the bottom part,and its the same for all,weather pagans or not,its not what you believe,its whats inside your heart... look at it this way. *christian* goes to hospital,its the christians job. some one is dying,and the christian is told he is need,*mumbbles darn,i really wanted to eat,instead of saving some cracker gangster again* *Pagan*same thing,as the christian,but the pagan replys differently,instead the pagan says. oooh noo,whats the info on this person!?,we need to hurry or we might loose em! Anyway one can do good deeds,But honestly i don't believe God is like oh this man helped this old lady,even though he wanted to rob and choke her to death so he can go to heaven for his deeds biggrin ! lol. its more of oh this man helped this lady,but wanted to do harm,so far,not in the book of life. his actions have to be good in the heart. if you help the lady just because she needed it,and you felt it was right to help,without a agenda,like do i get paid or something,thats pure. But on the other this is coming from a person who is pretty much a Pagan still,im still trying to get on this Gnostic Christian stuff. ^^ Anyway sorry to rant & go on,please don't get all dogma on me like the JFU guild,-.- if you don't have the knowalge to give me correct answers,please don't answer D: Anyway many blessings ^^
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:14 am
Mystic_Victoria Lightning and all that weren't considered Magic,well Magic maybe from the Gods,but never really a human. but,its rare,because its possiple to do such things,as make it rain,and all that,takes great amount of energy,and belief Im interested in this because you act like God controls all,when he doesn't if that were the case in some cases it condridicts christ. Depends on what you mean by control. If you mean control as in the ultimate micro-manager of the largest Sims game then I agree with you completely. If you mean control as in where it all stems from then I have to disagree. Control and power in Christian tradition is different from the control and power of a king or a Mediterranean/Semitic god. I'm not talking about level either. Example: Where people were expecting the power of the Messiah to be that of a conquering king or lord, the power of the Christ came in the form of an infant. Quote: there is False magic & true Magic. You don't need a God to tell you if you worship me you have the true magic. *but lord,im already doing magic,and worshiping (insert god name here) We have freewill,and our abilites,we are born with and can learn,we must learn to improve them. Parable of the servants with the talents. Quote: and the bottom part,and its the same for all,weather pagans or not,its not what you believe,its whats inside your heart... look at it this way. *christian* goes to hospital,its the christians job. some one is dying,and the christian is told he is need,*mumbbles darn,i really wanted to eat,instead of saving some cracker gangster again* *Pagan*same thing,as the christian,but the pagan replys differently,instead the pagan says. oooh noo,whats the info on this person!?,we need to hurry or we might loose em! Nice turn about of the good Samaritan parable there. Quote: Anyway one can do good deeds,But honestly i don't believe God is like oh this man helped this old lady,even though he wanted to rob and choke her to death so he can go to heaven for his deeds biggrin ! lol. its more of oh this man helped this lady,but wanted to do harm,so far,not in the book of life. his actions have to be good in the heart. if you help the lady just because she needed it,and you felt it was right to help,without a agenda,like do i get paid or something,thats pure. And that is the salvation that Paul was talking about here. Quote: But on the other this is coming from a person who is pretty much a Pagan still,im still trying to get on this Gnostic Christian stuff. ^^ You pretty much seem to have the gist of it. Former pagan who was teetering on becoming an atheist before I received my call back into the faith. Quote: Anyway sorry to rant & go on,please don't get all dogma on me like the JFU guild,-.- if you don't have the knowalge to give me correct answers,please don't answer D: Anyway many blessings ^^ I don't know what this JFU guild is but I don't think we're dogmatic. While we have a standard we go by, testing the standard and making sure it is in line with Truth is a big deal here. This guild is meant to be a haven to ask questions and equally important being pushed into uncomfortable areas in exploring Christianity. Sure none of us here know everything but we are willing to try to share what we do know to help each other out the best we can. I don't know what she is like in other guilds but she has not been pushy in this guild as far as I can tell. If anyone here here has a problem with any of the guild members being abusive here in this guild please report it to one of the mods, myself included in this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:14 am
Gjornia X The gifts given from God are intended to lead that person given them and those who come in contact with them to union with God. So,I guess that's another way to know--if you don't feel the irresistible urge to go out and evangelize or go to church or just shout "I love Jesus" then your gift while awesome is from something other than the Christian god. I may be misunderstanding, but I take this paragraph to mean that we, as true Christians, are given from God, the uncontrollable urge to and/or desire to go out and proclaim your love of Jesus verbally from every mountaintop and soapbox we come across... and frankly, I can't agree with that... Not every person who is called is meant to be an evangelist, not everyone is meant to be prophets, or teachers, etc. Yes, when we accept the call, we enter into a sanctified priesthood, but there are many jobs that must be performed, and not everyone will look the same in performing their calling. I don't feel less of a Christian in allowing people the opportunity to ask me what I believe. In fact, because of the people I am in most contact with, it would lessen my witness to tell them I am a Christian when I first meet them, as they wouldn't give me a chance to minister to them if they knew right away. Anyway, back to the topic... magic is a pretty controversial subject, and as far as I am concerned, it is one of those things where there are not enough words to distinguish between them... kinda like 'love'... I've seen some things that make me question what most churches teach, both evil and good. Really, it mostly breaks back down into when Christians give 'the devil' too much credit, and when gifts aren't recognized for what they are.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:26 pm
Gjornia X The gifts given from God are intended to lead that person given them and those who come in contact with them to union with God. So,I guess that's another way to know--if you don't feel the irresistible urge to go out and evangelize or go to church or just shout "I love Jesus" then your gift while awesome is from something other than the Christian god. Can I ask: Just as people in Scripture have shown to abuse their heavenly gifts and privilege to do evil, can one use gifts from non-Godly sources to do the will of God? The pagan who uses their power to heal the afflicted, are they sanctified by their act? Matthew 12 25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Mark 9 38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” 39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward. I think you may be taking "name" a bit too literal. Name can mean how one identifies themselves. It also conveys what one's essence is. If one is using their gifts in the essence of who Christ is, then how is their gifts opposed to God?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:01 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia I may be misunderstanding, but I take this paragraph to mean that we, as true Christians, are given from God, the uncontrollable urge to and/or desire to go out and proclaim your love of Jesus verbally from every mountaintop and soapbox we come across... Anyway, back to the topic... magic is a pretty controversial subject, and as far as I am concerned, it is one of those things where there are not enough words to distinguish between them... kinda like 'love'... I've seen some things that make me question what most churches teach, both evil and good. Really, it mostly breaks back down into when Christians give 'the devil' too much credit, and when gifts aren't recognized for what they are. I only meant that there should exist a passion for God if the gift is God given. I don't literally expect people to go out shouting "I love Jesus" (though if they did and they meant it, more power to them!). I'm just underscoring God's agenda, which is to get people to know Him for who he is. But I agree with you on not being overly vocal. Something about the person who prays in public vs the one who prays behind closed doors; and the man who thanked God that he wasn't a bad man and the debt collector who prayed forgiveness; and something about children being known by their love. Question: was one case of "magic" in the Bible really a mistranslation for poisoning? I guess it could be "magic" in an age that doesn't understand chemistry, biology, or arsenic. But I'm looking for corroboration or dispelling if it's a myth. For the OP: the Bible teaches salvation through grace not deeds, which is what makes Christianity different from many religions today including jusdaism, sikhism, buddhism, and...well the list goes on. That is why those who are Christian like Eltanin said, might just be doing God's work in a way that we don't recognize because the greatest effects are happening within that individual. So if anyone says you have to give money to their church or suffer damnation, RUN! I'd run with you! wink I know you're pagan, but do you read the Bible often? I'm also not gnostic so, there might be some things that I just don't know! rmcdra, little do you know that you're now my go to person for all things gnostic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Gjornia X Eltanin Sadachbia I may be misunderstanding, but I take this paragraph to mean that we, as true Christians, are given from God, the uncontrollable urge to and/or desire to go out and proclaim your love of Jesus verbally from every mountaintop and soapbox we come across... Anyway, back to the topic... magic is a pretty controversial subject, and as far as I am concerned, it is one of those things where there are not enough words to distinguish between them... kinda like 'love'... I've seen some things that make me question what most churches teach, both evil and good. Really, it mostly breaks back down into when Christians give 'the devil' too much credit, and when gifts aren't recognized for what they are. I only meant that there should exist a passion for God if the gift is God given. I don't literally expect people to go out shouting "I love Jesus" (though if they did and they meant it, more power to them!). I'm just underscoring God's agenda, which is to get people to know Him for who he is. But I agree with you on not being overly vocal. Something about the person who prays in public vs the one who prays behind closed doors; and the man who thanked God that he wasn't a bad man and the debt collector who prayed forgiveness; and something about children being known by their love. Question: was one case of "magic" in the Bible really a mistranslation for poisoning? I guess it could be "magic" in an age that doesn't understand chemistry, biology, or arsenic. But I'm looking for corroboration or dispelling if it's a myth. For the OP: the Bible teaches salvation through grace not deeds, which is what makes Christianity different from many religions today including jusdaism, sikhism, buddhism, and...well the list goes on. That is why those who are Christian like Eltanin said, might just be doing God's work in a way that we don't recognize because the greatest effects are happening within that individual. So if anyone says you have to give money to their church or suffer damnation, RUN! I'd run with you! wink I know you're pagan, but do you read the Bible often? i didn't mean the deeds safe you,its whats inside of you. and i kinda stopped reading it,for it was honestly starting to disgust me xD. Course i have the kjv which is the worst to get -.-... (reasons why) but not trying to debate on which bible is good or bad. And i would run too xD,most of the time its just pastors with a hunger for money lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:13 pm
lol, kjv is like a horse pill. i cant get past the -iths, -eths, -ous, yees, and.....it's just...why?!?!?!?!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:08 am
Gjornia X lol, kjv is like a horse pill. i cant get past the -iths, -eths, -ous, yees, and.....it's just...why?!?!?!?! Lol xD
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:08 am
I grew up on KJV, and it doesn't bother me... I kinda like the old world fantasy kinda feeling I get from reading Old English... I sometimes find it hard to navigate other Bibles because what I have memorized word-for-word was memorized from the KJV, but I know I am an exception when it comes to this preference.
It is weird though because as much as I like the -iths, -eths, thous, etc... When I read aloud, I normally just automatically upgrade the words to modern era suffixes or words...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:18 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia I grew up on KJV, and it doesn't bother me... I kinda like the old world fantasy kinda feeling I get from reading Old English... I sometimes find it hard to navigate other Bibles because what I have memorized word-for-word was memorized from the KJV, but I know I am an exception when it comes to this preference. It is weird though because as much as I like the -iths, -eths, thous, etc... When I read aloud, I normally just automatically upgrade the words to modern era suffixes or words... I like how its worded,don't get me wrong,sometimes i catch myself,saying things like,thou shall or whatever lol,makes my mouth tingle xD its the translation i dont like
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:41 pm
I was going to quote people but my skills at grabbing peoples words are poor, I could get one but I lose the other, but it was mentioned a couple of times that all good things come from God, and someone else mentioned personal feelings, but from a scripture reference (and I use KJV) in both Matthew 7:16-20, and in The Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 14:16-20 That you shall know them by their fruit, that every good tree brings forth good fruit but that a corrupt tree brings forth bad fruit. That a bad tree cannot bring good fruit or a good tree bad fruit.
For me, it doesn't matter what you call it magic or miracle, if you are using it to hurt people, its wrong, if you are using it to help people, its right.
God loves us, and he wants us to be like him, we are each given gifts and how we use them is up to us.
on a side note, I do not like the modern re-translations. They don't feel like they have the same quality. some of the words used in the KJV lose their substance when you take them into the modern vernacular. its like saying truth instead of veracity. they are basically the same, but veracity has a deeper implication. every time the scriptures are translated, something changes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
