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Kurama (Shuichi) vs Kurama (youko) Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2

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WyndiWingfall

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:21 pm


Don't judge the rest of the YYH fanbase by my history alone, but I just wanted to point something out:

I was eleven when I started watching YYH - and believe me, I wasn't the awesome intelligent person I am now. I'd been spoiled by what little shallow American cartoons I'd watched [no, seriously - looking back, so many shows I watched back then had 2D characters [and I'm not talking about their being animated]]. Which meant that I couldn't fully grasp Kurama's character and truly appreciate it for what it was.

Fast-forward to age thirteen, when I started writing fanfiction [and so did most other people, from what I can tell]. Having had no person to discuss YYH with [I was the first person to like anime among my group of friends], my understanding of Kurama was still limited to the anime.

It was only after reading the manga and having some serious discussions about Kurama [and a few years to wisen up and deepen my understanding of the world] that I truly came to begin to see him for the person he was. To come to the conclusions we've drawn about Kurama, there needs to be, first, a true understanding of him, reflection and discussion, if you will. Just like with a person in RL, it takes time to look past the surface and into the soul. [...UGH THAT REEKED OF CLICHÉ.] Sure, it seems obvious to us now, but it's probably not that clear to a prepubescent fan who's following the anime and fanfiction only.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:12 pm


deaddog1991
Kurama (in either forms) is the cruelest member of team YYH. The guy doesn't believe in mercy and honour and won't hesitate to do whatever it takes to complete his goals.


Erm...not COMPLETELY true.
There was Touya.

havishanta


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:58 pm


deaddog1991
Kurama (in either forms) is the cruelest member of team YYH. The guy doesn't believe in mercy and honour and won't hesitate to do whatever it takes to complete his goals.


First off, using the rest of the team as a gauge against whether Kurama is cruel or not isn't a convincing argument because the rest of the team really isn't all that cruel; it's like saying he has the greenest eyes of any guy on the team--doesn't mean he has exceptionally green eyes, just that they're greener than those belonging to the people you're comparing him to.

Second, while Kurama does state that he doesn't believe in mercy, his actions do not always support this. His willingness to sacrifice himself for Shiori is one of his defining moments and contradicts this picture of him. Havi makes another good point; Kurama treats Touya mercifully and refuses to kill him. Kurama also intends to treat Ura Urishima well and save him from the supposed wrath of his teammates (although that turned out to be pathetically dimwitted on Kurama's part.)

I guess my point isn't that Kurama is a goodie-two-shoes or that he can't be a magnificent b*****d occasionally, but that he is a ridiculously complex character--quick labels can't do him service.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:31 am


Kurama vs Yomi (indirectly)
Kurama vs Gamemaster
Even Hiei believes that Kurama is the cruelest of team Urameshi

deaddog1991

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borderline_mary

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:09 pm


Kurama appears to have the capacity to be the cruelest, most ruthless member of the team. This capacity does not negate the other examples given of times when he has displayed mercy and compassion (and hesitation in taking the most pragmatic route).

I'm with InkMistress on this one.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:19 am


borderline_mary
Kurama appears to have the capacity to be the cruelest, most ruthless member of the team. This capacity does not negate the other examples given of times when he has displayed mercy and compassion (and hesitation in taking the most pragmatic route).



This.

/productive comment ftw.


WyndiWingfall

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borderline_mary

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:40 am


WyndiWingfall
Unless he's talking to himself...but that's not what fanfiction makes it sound like.


(Sorry to jump back a ways.)

I've had Kurama argue with himself in fanfiction . . . but he was actually arguing with himself, as opposed to having two separate personalities. More like two separate thought processes/trains of logic/approaches to a problem that run at occasional cross-purposes.

Fanfiction writers seem like they tend to conflate soul with personality, and thus conflate multiple souls with multiple personalities, despite that there aren't multiple souls in the first place and why they often end up with three personalities on the assumed basis of two souls is generally mysterious. It isn't made very clear in the anime that this is the case, particularly in the dub; even leaving aside the moment in the Dark Tournament when 'Youko' talks to 'Shuuichi,' in the third episode Kurama just states that he "became the child of" human parents, and later when he talks about his state of being as "a merger, not a possession," he's referring specifically at the time to being unable to separate himself from his current body, which lets the viewer know only one distinct fact: that he can't dispossess the form. That could be interpreted as several different things, and allows for the possibility that he merged with an existing soul during the process (before I had access to anything beyond the dub, this is one of hypotheses I considered based on that line). In the manga, however, as has already been stated, it's made absolutely plain that there was no existing soul. The dub goes on to muddy the issue even further in the Sensui arc, when Kurama says he hasn't actually transformed into the Youko even though his body has changed, suggesting that there's something other than body changes going on when he does but not providing any further elucidation. (I have no clear recollection of what the sub says at any of these points, and thus don't know whether it's more clear, less, or about the same on the issue. I kind of want to haul out my DVDs this weekend and check.)

I note, though, that while there is no support whatsoever for in canon for the theory that Kurama is separate from Shuuichi is separate from Youko (psychologically speaking), and while it does follow logically that the explicit description of his origin makes this vastly unlikely, it's also not impossible that it could have ended up that way. Having a single soul doesn't preclude the possibility of multiple personalities, and his behavior in canon can be construed as at least allowing for it (particularly because [as I understand, with my admittedly limited knowledge on the subject] YYH already doesn't quite represent DID accurately in any case). If Kurama were to be a plural system, you could make a case for those three as base personalities, and it might make for a really interesting fanfiction premise.

All of that said . . . it's still vastly unlikely, and it would take an enormously well-articulated fic to make me buy it.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:07 am


borderline_mary
Having a single soul doesn't preclude the possibility of multiple personalities, and his behavior in canon can be construed as at least allowing for it (particularly because [as I understand, with my admittedly limited knowledge on the subject] YYH already doesn't quite represent DID accurately in any case). If Kurama were to be a plural system, you could make a case for those three as base personalities, and it might make for a really interesting fanfiction premise.

All of that said . . . it's still vastly unlikely, and it would take an enormously well-articulated fic to make me buy it.


Completely unproductive comment, but I would read that fanfic. Sounds like a rather interesting perspective on Kurama...

Though...yeah, the series really portray a plural system well at all. But like you said, if a well-articulated fanfic did exist, claiming Kurama had multiple personality disorder...I'd dig that.

havishanta


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:35 pm


havishanta
borderline_mary
Having a single soul doesn't preclude the possibility of multiple personalities, and his behavior in canon can be construed as at least allowing for it (particularly because [as I understand, with my admittedly limited knowledge on the subject] YYH already doesn't quite represent DID accurately in any case). If Kurama were to be a plural system, you could make a case for those three as base personalities, and it might make for a really interesting fanfiction premise.

All of that said . . . it's still vastly unlikely, and it would take an enormously well-articulated fic to make me buy it.


Completely unproductive comment, but I would read that fanfic. Sounds like a rather interesting perspective on Kurama...

Though...yeah, the series really portray a plural system well at all. But like you said, if a well-articulated fanfic did exist, claiming Kurama had multiple personality disorder...I'd dig that.


Ditto. Especially since it would help explain (or could be justified) by the earlier discussion on this page--Kurama is often both merciful and merciless; one fight he'll spare a fighter's life and the next he'll murder a child. (Although I would like to point out that in Gamemaster's case, Kurama had virtually no other choice and was sacrificing one child for the entire human world. Probably he's the only person on the YYH team who could have done that, true, but he wasn't acting out of malice.)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:14 am


InkMistress
havishanta
borderline_mary
Having a single soul doesn't preclude the possibility of multiple personalities, and his behavior in canon can be construed as at least allowing for it (particularly because [as I understand, with my admittedly limited knowledge on the subject] YYH already doesn't quite represent DID accurately in any case). If Kurama were to be a plural system, you could make a case for those three as base personalities, and it might make for a really interesting fanfiction premise.

All of that said . . . it's still vastly unlikely, and it would take an enormously well-articulated fic to make me buy it.


Completely unproductive comment, but I would read that fanfic. Sounds like a rather interesting perspective on Kurama...

Though...yeah, the series really portray a plural system well at all. But like you said, if a well-articulated fanfic did exist, claiming Kurama had multiple personality disorder...I'd dig that.


Ditto. Especially since it would help explain (or could be justified) by the earlier discussion on this page--Kurama is often both merciful and merciless; one fight he'll spare a fighter's life and the next he'll murder a child. (Although I would like to point out that in Gamemaster's case, Kurama had virtually no other choice and was sacrificing one child for the entire human world. Probably he's the only person on the YYH team who could have done that, true, but he wasn't acting out of malice.)


I dunno. I think, if push had come to shove, that Yuusuke might have been able to do it, had he been in that position. He was already willing to kill Doctor to save the people in the hospital, and while it's obviously different for him that Gamemaster is a child (and a deluded, rather non-evil one at that), I don't know that it would be impossible that he'd make the same choice Kurama did. He's a little too aware of the stakes -- and a little too ruthless post-Tournament -- to rule it out completely.

Amusingly enough, Hiei probably wouldn't have; his honor wouldn't let him.

borderline_mary



WyndiWingfall

Crew

Green Lantern

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:41 pm


That, and he doesn't care enough about the human world to really want to save it, one way or another. Yes, he cares about certain people in the human world, but saving the entirety of the realm might be a little too much to ask.

If it came down to Yukina and a [to him] worthless human child, though, there's little doubt in my mind that he would choose Yukina and leave the kid to rot. He might feel ever so slightly guilty about it, but Hiei weighs his choices as much as Kurama does, and he'll save what's important to him at the cost of almost anything else.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:30 pm


WyndiWingfall
Don't judge the rest of the YYH fanbase by my history alone, but I just wanted to point something out:

I was eleven when I started watching YYH - and believe me, I wasn't the awesome intelligent person I am now. I'd been spoiled by what little shallow American cartoons I'd watched [no, seriously - looking back, so many shows I watched back then had 2D characters [and I'm not talking about their being animated]]. Which meant that I couldn't fully grasp Kurama's character and truly appreciate it for what it was.

Fast-forward to age thirteen, when I started writing fanfiction [and so did most other people, from what I can tell]. Having had no person to discuss YYH with [I was the first person to like anime among my group of friends], my understanding of Kurama was still limited to the anime.

It was only after reading the manga and having some serious discussions about Kurama [and a few years to wisen up and deepen my understanding of the world] that I truly came to begin to see him for the person he was. To come to the conclusions we've drawn about Kurama, there needs to be, first, a true understanding of him, reflection and discussion, if you will. Just like with a person in RL, it takes time to look past the surface and into the soul. [...UGH THAT REEKED OF CLICHÉ.] Sure, it seems obvious to us now, but it's probably not that clear to a prepubescent fan who's following the anime and fanfiction only.


That's one of the reasons I like this series so much .. the characters have so much depth that they become very real, like real-life friends.

I just watched the first episode of the HunterxHunter reboot, but so far I'm not getting the same spark as with YYH. (HxH is by the same manga-ka.) Maybe it'll shape up later on ...

Lady_Imrahil

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