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 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:13 pm
Ah, that's nice for the side by side (I like having the Anglo-Saxon to puzzle out) and the language is very pretty and enjoyable to read but it's not the most accurate translation. A good basic is the Burton Raffael version. There are better but they get kind of costly.
Anyway, I should read more of the book that's actually the topic here shouldn't I?
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:06 pm
Lol. I like the side-by-side, too.
But yeah, I've started into the preface of the Kalevala. Not much to say yet other than yay for Thor-Ukko similarities!
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Distinct Conversationalist
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Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:58 pm
Quote: She is according to some mythologists espoused to Ukko, who bestows upon her children the blessings of sunshine and rain, as Gé is wedded to Ouranos, Jordh to Odhin, and Papa to Rangi. Hey, check it out! Maori mythology reference! Quoted for rarity! xd
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Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:46 pm
So that's who they are! I read that earlier and that last couple was the only one I couldn't identify.
The language of this is interesting. A little stuffy so far, but the things they keep mentioning in the intro are getting me interested for the actual book part. It's also interesting how the author sees pretty much every deity mentioned as evil or cruel somehow. I know that a lot of mythologies are harsh but I think there are some biases showing through. Of course, given the time period this version was released, I'm not that surprised.
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Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:00 pm
Rangi and Papa:
In the early days of the universe or whatever, Sky and Earth (Rangi and Papa respectively) were very close together. And their sons were squished in between them, which must have been uncomfortable particularly since they had sex a lot. So one of the brothers braced his back against his mother and his feet against his father and pushed, and Rangi was pushed back, and that's why the sky is far away. ^_^
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Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:23 pm
CalledTheRaven The language of this is interesting. A little stuffy so far, but the things they keep mentioning in the intro are getting me interested for the actual book part. The intro was definitely a bit stuffy to say the least, but once you get to the actual saga, it's flows very nicely. Quote: It's also interesting how the author sees pretty much every deity mentioned as evil or cruel somehow. I know that a lot of mythologies are harsh but I think there are some biases showing through. Of course, given the time period this version was released, I'm not that surprised. I noticed that too, which is sort of sad, because it seems like one of those things that if someone was browsing around - possibly interested in Finnish Paganism - the intro alone would be more likely to push someone away, then make them want to learn more (unless that sort of thing appealed to them).
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:17 am
ncsweet CalledTheRaven The language of this is interesting. A little stuffy so far, but the things they keep mentioning in the intro are getting me interested for the actual book part. The intro was definitely a bit stuffy to say the least, but once you get to the actual saga, it's flows very nicely. Of course, first you have to get past the intro, which is somewhat extensive.
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:55 am
CalledTheRaven So that's who they are! I read that earlier and that last couple was the only one I couldn't identify. The language of this is interesting. A little stuffy so far, but the things they keep mentioning in the intro are getting me interested for the actual book part. It's also interesting how the author sees pretty much every deity mentioned as evil or cruel somehow. I know that a lot of mythologies are harsh but I think there are some biases showing through. Of course, given the time period this version was released, I'm not that surprised. Finland was long since Christianized, by that point, but the biases against pagan religions were still pretty strong in the 1880's. It was acceptable to study them as part of antiquity, but firmly against Victorian-era English mores to have anything other than a firmly Christian outlook on such things. It was perfectly normal for that era to consider these older texts as vaguely evil and misguided, but also with a strong patronizing attitude - the 'noble savage' was still going strong, and 'it wasn't the savage's fault if they didn't know any better'. Mind you, some anthropologists still seem to be stuck in 1888.... xd
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:44 pm
Morgandria CalledTheRaven So that's who they are! I read that earlier and that last couple was the only one I couldn't identify. The language of this is interesting. A little stuffy so far, but the things they keep mentioning in the intro are getting me interested for the actual book part. It's also interesting how the author sees pretty much every deity mentioned as evil or cruel somehow. I know that a lot of mythologies are harsh but I think there are some biases showing through. Of course, given the time period this version was released, I'm not that surprised. Finland was long since Christianized, by that point, but the biases against pagan religions were still pretty strong in the 1880's. It was acceptable to study them as part of antiquity, but firmly against Victorian-era English mores to have anything other than a firmly Christian outlook on such things. It was perfectly normal for that era to consider these older texts as vaguely evil and misguided, but also with a strong patronizing attitude - the 'noble savage' was still going strong, and 'it wasn't the savage's fault if they didn't know any better'. Mind you, some anthropologists still seem to be stuck in 1888.... xd Pretty much that. I just couldn't be bothered to actually think out how to type all that. Nicely said! Sadly, it's not just anthropologists.
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:10 pm
So I finally found some time to get through the rest of the frikken Preface. I've only read the intro of the actual epic so far but it was beautiful. As a student of history and a practitioner of a reconstruction religion, it really struck a cord with me.
So where's everyone else at? Any bits that have stood out to you because of language or meaning?
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:07 pm
I got through Rune I, hopefully I'll get a bit more done tonight.
I thought it was a bit strange that it said that she wandered for ages alone in the heavens, but then when she became the water-maiden, she called on Ukko (ruler of the heavens) for help. So where was he when she was wandering alone?
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:07 pm
ncsweet I got through Rune I, hopefully I'll get a bit more done tonight. I thought it was a bit strange that it said that she wandered for ages alone in the heavens, but then when she became the water-maiden, she called on Ukko (ruler of the heavens) for help. So where was he when she was wandering alone? Ukko is always sort of distant, throughout the epic. He's considered to be similar to Odhinn in that he wanders, but the gods in this saga never really seem to be as direct. Also, Ilmatar is an air goddess - comfortable, I would think, within the skies, but very much out of her element in the water. Perhaps this is why she calls for his help - a virgin air spirit, who falls pregnant to wind and storm, and ends up landing in the sea. I can imagine her feeling the terrible weight of it all, and feeling helpless.
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:17 pm
Morgandria ncsweet I got through Rune I, hopefully I'll get a bit more done tonight. I thought it was a bit strange that it said that she wandered for ages alone in the heavens, but then when she became the water-maiden, she called on Ukko (ruler of the heavens) for help. So where was he when she was wandering alone? Ukko is always sort of distant, throughout the epic. He's considered to be similar to Odhinn in that he wanders, but the gods in this saga never really seem to be as direct. Also, Ilmatar is an air goddess - comfortable, I would think, within the skies, but very much out of her element in the water. Perhaps this is why she calls for his help - a virgin air spirit, who falls pregnant to wind and storm, and ends up landing in the sea. I can imagine her feeling the terrible weight of it all, and feeling helpless. I can understand her calling on him, what I thought was strange was that it went on and on about how alone she was (which gave them impression that there wast any other beings around), but then suddenly there's this other God (who was there all the time).
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:25 pm
Well, she's very much referred to as a Maiden, even after getting pregnant, which can imply youth. So maybe it's kind of the lonely teenager thing. with no one her own age to hang out with, she got bored in the sky and went down to take a look at the sea and the waves where things got a bit out of hand and she ended up pregnant, lost, and alone.
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:43 pm
ncsweet I can understand her calling on him, what I thought was strange was that it went on and on about how alone she was (which gave them impression that there wast any other beings around), but then suddenly there's this other God (who was there all the time). I think it's a particular flaw of these sorts of sagas, recorded by observers and then reconstituted, in that the native storytellers and their audiences understood things in a way that they didn't feel needed to be said or explained to an observer. I think to them it would have been obvious who and what and where their Gods were, and so elaboration wasn't nescessary in their stories. The person writing this all down, and making it into an epic poem, can't include information that he himself wasn't aware of, and didn't have told to him.
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