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Death Penalty: please read first post before voting
for it
31%
 31%  [ 10 ]
against it
31%
 31%  [ 10 ]
mixed ground
37%
 37%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 32


Niharana

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:12 am


I can say quite firmly that I am firmly against capital punishment, for any reason. One of my 'dislikes' about being a United States citizen is that we are one of the few 'developed' or 'Western' countries that still allows capital punishment. There is no evidence that capital punishment works, and, in many cases, it would probably be crueler to leave the person alive to forever contemplate their crimes against others, and humanity. That's jsut my opinion on what would be worse for me. Also, by murdering someone through capital punishment, the government is creating the opportunity for the society or supportors of the person executed to make a matyr out of that person(s). It is cheaper to kill off our prisoners, but can human life, even a human life that has taken another life, ever be reduced to a mere monetary amount?
Even in the extreme cases, such as bombers (ex. the Uni-bomber) and person's committing treason, there is no monetary amount that can be placed on a human life. Too many people try to make the matter a purely economic one.
I recently enganged myself in a discussion with the pastor and several elders of my church about abortion (I'm also completly against abortion after the embryo has been detected. The morning after pill, to me, isn't abortion, because it prevents the embryo from attaching, something which, statistically, is unlikely to occur in the first place. In addition, there is the whole problem that if the sould enters the embryo at conception, what happens to identical twins?), and then turned it into a discussion about capital punishment. To my suprise and disgust, they were all completly for capital punishment.
I really don't see how somebody can be against abortion, because it is the taking of a human life, and for capital punishment, simply because the life in question has committed a wrong.
If anyone could explain this seeming paradox to me, I would be grateful.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:28 am


chaoticpuppet
toxic_lollipop
Not in Canada. In Canada life in prison means 25 years, maximum you can parole before that. However you can be given mulitple life sentences. I think we worry too much about rehabilitating people sometimes, and so we get caught up in this idea, which actually won't work in reality.
Life in Technically, 25 yrs could be considered life because it is a little over the time period that is considered a generation.

It doesn't matter. Your life doesn't end when a new generation begins so life =/= generation. If you get life in prison it should be life. No if ands or buts about it.

Unless of course you were falsely accused, but that should go without saying.

Quote:
toxic_lollipop
And yes, I would be fine with you only getting life in prison. Why would you be getting the death penalty? Because you had put other's LIVES at risk. By stating that what you did was wrong and then taking your life it is hypocritical. By killing someone the government is devaluing people's lives and cannot therefore make a rule that it is wrong to kill someone. You must abide by the rules you set before you can expect anyone else to abide by them.


Now, there is a difference between saying that, and meaning it. I am not making a judgement about you personally, but most people will say something like that, but when it hits them personally, they automatically change their minds. Again, I am not saying you are like that, just that there are a lot of people out there like that.

Now, what if I were an important enough member of whatever gorup that sold your lives, and they came to rescue me, and I did it all over agian?

What if? Would I fly off the handle and try to kill them? Maybe. However that doesn't make it RIGHT to do so, it doesn't make it ethical. Not just my ethics but the laws as well. It's not right or ethical for me to kill another person. Since the government sets these rules, and isn't a single person which cannot be controlled it should be the one to say "Killing is wrong, I don't support it therefore I will not take part in it."

People act on impluse and without thinking sometimes, this however should not be the way of our laws. Yes we may WANT someone dead, with everything in us, this doesn't however make it okay to kill them.

Decrepit Faith

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chaoticpuppet
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:26 pm


toxic_lollipop
chaoticpuppet
toxic_lollipop
Not in Canada. In Canada life in prison means 25 years, maximum you can parole before that. However you can be given mulitple life sentences. I think we worry too much about rehabilitating people sometimes, and so we get caught up in this idea, which actually won't work in reality.
Life in Technically, 25 yrs could be considered life because it is a little over the time period that is considered a generation.

It doesn't matter. Your life doesn't end when a new generation begins so life =/= generation. If you get life in prison it should be life. No if ands or buts about it.

Unless of course you were falsely accused, but that should go without saying.
Just for the record, I agree that life should be ones full life, however, I always like to play devils advocate.
Quote:
toxic_lollipop
And yes, I would be fine with you only getting life in prison. Why would you be getting the death penalty? Because you had put other's LIVES at risk. By stating that what you did was wrong and then taking your life it is hypocritical. By killing someone the government is devaluing people's lives and cannot therefore make a rule that it is wrong to kill someone. You must abide by the rules you set before you can expect anyone else to abide by them.


Now, there is a difference between saying that, and meaning it. I am not making a judgement about you personally, but most people will say something like that, but when it hits them personally, they automatically change their minds. Again, I am not saying you are like that, just that there are a lot of people out there like that.

Now, what if I were an important enough member of whatever gorup that sold your lives, and they came to rescue me, and I did it all over agian?

What if? Would I fly off the handle and try to kill them? Maybe. However that doesn't make it RIGHT to do so, it doesn't make it ethical. Not just my ethics but the laws as well. It's not right or ethical for me to kill another person. Since the government sets these rules, and isn't a single person which cannot be controlled it should be the one to say "Killing is wrong, I don't support it therefore I will not take part in it."

People act on impluse and without thinking sometimes, this however should not be the way of our laws. Yes we may WANT someone dead, with everything in us, this doesn't however make it okay to kill them.
All laws are based off of hypothetical situations, that means the what if questions strongly apply. Would you want to live in a country that didn't think ahead to things that could happen, but may not? For example, the ruler of your country commits treason, and there is nothing in your constitution that says the ruler is subject to the same laws as the people, and there is no mention of any laws that the ruler cannot break? So, what if questions are always important to the set up and running of a country.

Now, which do you find more cruel, a quick and painless death (something like lethal injection) or rotting in prison, to think about what you have done?

I personally find the second more cruel, and in the U.S. any punishment that is cruel and unusual is considered unconstitutional. So, I believe that it would be wrong to leave them in prison to rot, and think about what they have done, that is far more cruel than death (again, according to me). With that said, I do believe that there is only one crime worth death, and that is treason. I find treason the most detestable crime one could ever commit, and triplely so in times of peace. Treason is not just a simple "oh they only sold government secrets." The person who committed treason sold every single life of every single citizen in the sovereign state. For example, a traitor from the U.S. would have sold the lives of under 300 million, meaning at one whack, 300 million people could die, a traitor from China would have sold the lives of between 1 and 2 billion people (I believe), thats a sixth to a third of the worlds population that were sold into death! Now, whether those people die or not, is irrelevant, it's the fact that they could have died. The reason I would want a traitor nothing less than dead is because I do not want to give them the chance to be a traitor ever again. No matter how secure the prison is there is always a chance that the traitor can escape, whereas the traitor cannot escape death (after the execution).

Niharana: I am assuming you are a member of a christian church, if you are not, please correct me. Now, your pastor and the elders, I would hope are well versed in the bible, BUT, even though there is the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" part, there is also a part in the bible that supports execution, if and only if, it comes from the sovereign ruler(s) of said state. I do not know the bible that well, but I will try to find the passages.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:46 pm


I am a member of the Christian Church...good guess smile
Yes, there are passages in the Bible that support execution, but they lie mainly (or possibly completly) in the Old Testament, which is still under Jewish Law. In my belief system, Jesus died for our sins, and instructed us to follow him and his ways. While people say that Jesus killed a man (accidentally, in anger, when they were basically whoring out the inner temple), he did not do so on purpose/deliberatly. (sp)

Niharana


Acidrica

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:37 pm


I am strongly against the death penalty. Think about this, some people support it because and I quote" They'll just kill again." With the technology we have today nobody should be able to excape from life-sentence, so why kill them?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:19 pm


I am not against the death penalty. I dont value this life that much. I highly dougt tht this is it. There was so much that humans didnt unstand one hundered years ago and I highly dougt we know much. There is so much we dont understand. The death penalty seems reeeeeally bad, but it might be nothing. There are things that will take thousands of years to understand and some things that we never understand. Its better than torture.

Marjuari_the_elemental


chaoticpuppet
Crew

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:24 pm


linafalcon
I am strongly against the death penalty. Think about this, some people support it because and I quote" They'll just kill again." With the technology we have today nobody should be able to excape from life-sentence, so why kill them?


No matter how secure the place is, no matter how much technology we use, there is always a chance someone can escape. No matter how small the chance is, it is there, and it always seems that the timings for that to happen are at the worst possible moments.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:29 pm


chaoticpuppet
linafalcon
I am strongly against the death penalty. Think about this, some people support it because and I quote" They'll just kill again." With the technology we have today nobody should be able to excape from life-sentence, so why kill them?


No matter how secure the place is, no matter how much technology we use, there is always a chance someone can escape. No matter how small the chance is, it is there, and it always seems that the timings for that to happen are at the worst possible moments.
I think the life sentence would be worse than the death penalty....personally

Marjuari_the_elemental


chaoticpuppet
Crew

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:30 pm


Marjuari_the_elemental
chaoticpuppet
linafalcon
I am strongly against the death penalty. Think about this, some people support it because and I quote" They'll just kill again." With the technology we have today nobody should be able to excape from life-sentence, so why kill them?


No matter how secure the place is, no matter how much technology we use, there is always a chance someone can escape. No matter how small the chance is, it is there, and it always seems that the timings for that to happen are at the worst possible moments.
I think the life sentence would be worse than the death penalty....personally


Oh, I fully agree with you on that, though, once the execution is over with, there is no coming back for that person, that person has a rather small window for escape, and once he enters "the room," as I will call it, he is assured that he will never escape again. Now, a life sentence cannot do that. With a life sentence (using life to mean the life of the criminal) there is always a chance for an escape.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:05 am


I am mixed on the issue. I can see toxic's view, and understand where she is coming from 100%...(side note: parents are also hypocritical when they smoke cigarettes and teach their kids not to do drugs...actions do speak louder than words) Which is why I am mixed. Although I don't agree with the government contradicting itself (in yet another way), I don't see the the point in keeping a possible threat to society alive with tax money from the people. That money could be put to good use in other ways than feeding, clothing, etc for a parasite.

Aliikai Kudo


chaoticpuppet
Crew

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:19 pm


Aliikai_Kudo
I am mixed on the issue. I can see toxic's view, and understand where she is coming from 100%...(side note: parents are also hypocritical when they smoke cigarettes and teach their kids not to do drugs...actions do speak louder than words) Which is why I am mixed. Although I don't agree with the government contradicting itself (in yet another way), I don't see the the point in keeping a possible threat to society alive with tax money from the people. That money could be put to good use in other ways than feeding, clothing, etc for a parasite.

Are parents really that hypocritical smoking and telling you not to do drugs/smoke? Look at it this way, they are showing you firsthand the mistakes they have made, and where that has led them. They are showing you firsthand what may happen if you decide to pick up their habits. Lastly, they are giving you a firsthand account of what not to do. Is that really thast hypocritical? Instead of wanthing you to go through and make the same mistakes they made, they are showing you what can happen, if you make the mistakes they made, that led to that addiction.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:04 pm


This is one of those grand philosophical questions. To kill, or not to? When one has killed many others, should that person be destroyed? It is right?

I look at the question from the standpoint of a Wiccan. The Rede says "And harming none, do as thou wilt." If one has caused harm, then one has broken one of the most sacred rules of existence (in my view, at least).

However, is it our place to offer that punishment? Yes, would should do something to protect our world and the gift that is our lives, and putting those would would harm far away (death being the farthest one can be) makes sense.

I do seem to remember a certain line in the New Testament, however...something along the lines of "may he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I cannot take a pure view on this arguement, I'm afraid. In my own soul, I'm too split. I believe, in times of peace and thought, that there the death penalty is a barbarian's tool...an archaic device used by men with archaic minds.
However, sometimes I let the fire in my blood boil over...especially in certain instances. To say that the Death Penalty is wrong when never having witnessed a murder is akin to being a male and complaining about one's menstration - there is no basis, and no privlage to be given to the speaker.

I have seen a death. Not first hand, and not though theatrics...I was forwarded the film of one of the first American journalists to be killed in Iraq. I was the gristly video of the beheading, and couldn't look away fast enough before the image was seared upon my mind. In that moment, I wanted to burn whoever had done this alive. I felt the same way when I saw two fuel-bloated aircraft change the United States and the world. Flaying whoever had done this in acid as they begged for mercy would be a kindness...
But only when the rage boils. A very human response. An instinctive response...someone once said that the first reaction is often the right one. Can this be true in such a case?

Thoughts to ponder...neither true nor false.

M. Soulstrom

Mythral Soulstrom


chessiejo

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:34 am


every human life, no matter how twisted, has incredible value. we are all precious. if someone has destroyed a precious thing, the answer is not to destroy another precious thing.

that only makes it worse.

besdies many people who are convicted turn out to be innocent, as i'm sure somebody has already said.

but basically for me it has to do with how i see god viewing humanity. "Gos so loved the world", not just the good guys, the moral ones, the christians, the americans, but the whole darned world.

you don't kill something you love.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:44 am


chessiejo
you don't kill something you love.

That can be debated.

chaoticpuppet
Crew


Tigress Dawn

Hygienic Noob

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:07 pm


I am definitely for the death penalty. The people getting executed here in this country have obviously done something horrendous enough to deserve death. People aren't just thrown in jail and a few years later Xed off the list. They have multiple appeals, so that if they were innocent, they would have a chance to make the case iffy and therefore cancel the sentence.

It is far less expensive to just kill them off than to pay to have a bunch of criminals sit around and watch cable TV. No, prison isn't glamorous or fun like they show in movies or TV, but the fact that we pay to provide them with soft bedding, food and other luxuries is a problem (If I had it my way, we'd follow the Chinese way of dealing with prisoners. If the family doesn't bring them food, they starve to death.). Point being, its less expensive to kill them.

Also, something to think about. As a man once said, I forget his name though.."One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." Meaning, unless I know the man or had some connection with him, I'm not going to care if he's dead or alive.
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Morality and Ethics

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