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 Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:49 pm
Indoloro unfathomable I don't know, three Saturdays ago kind of changed a lot of my perspective on this. I was really drunk at a party, and apparently I kissed a guy, which is nothing in of itself, but he ended up basically dragging me to my dorm and tearing off my clothes and making with sexy time. According to his story, I was into it, but I don't remember, and I definitely don't feel like it after. Apparently I stopped him and called my friend Dan to come get me because "oh my god Dan, I'm so drunk and this environment is so rapey." Anyway, I considered the event a sexual assault. I definitely recall feeling violated. Just because somebody acts one way when they're drunk, doesn't mean we all do, or even should have to. It should be somebody's responsibility to not sexually assault people, not for people to be blamed for not "defending themselves" probably, whatever that is even supposed to mean. tl;dr I don't think any crime is ever the victim's fault, so why would rape be any different? That's kind of begging the question as to whether or not there is a victim. Typically, someone isn't a victim until it's proven a crime occurred. If someone chooses to drink, then their actions that take place afterward are their responsibility. You wouldn't justify drunk driving by arguing the person's friends pressured them into it. It may not be the fault of the victim if someone else made them drive, but it's their responsibility. I don't think it's ever the girl's fault. Unless it's something very ambiguous like she verbally says no but continues to fool around with a person and eventually "gives in" to sex. I think most would agree that if the girl didn't get out of there and just "gave in," then deciding afterwards that it was unwanted doesn't make the sex rape. Just sex you regret. If you drink, you're consenting to being drunk. Everything that involves alcohol (hangovers, random bruises you get from knocking into things etc.) is your responsibility, but anything that could happen to you outside of being drunk, shouldn't be your fault. I could easily be raped, robbed, murdered, whatever when I was sober, so why is it suddenly partly my fault because I, or anybody else, ingested a certain chemical?
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:07 pm
I don't think it's the victim's fault. Also throwing around girl is silly, men do get raped. So victim is more appropriate.
But also this reminds me of something we talked about in speech [we go over so much random s**t. My teacher did so much state work etc] and she was overseeing a case where two kids had sex. The boy was seventeen and the girl was fourteen. She consented to it, but the parents didn't accept it. Since they're more than three years apart they couldn't really put much of a say in it. The parents took it to court and this guy was registered as a sex offender. For the rest of his life. That is so ******** up. I would hate those parents so much. They ruined his life with that. Jobs he applies to, houses he buys, cities he visits or lives in, he needs to give them a notice that he's a sex offender, and he isn't. In the end the fact is she consented. She wanted it. She pleaded with her parents but they didn't listen and he got ******** over for it.
That was kind of off track but basically it's like when women who didn't get rape, decide they didn't want it and they freak out and say they were raped and take him to court. If he's found guilty, he's screwed for the rest of his life. It's just unfair to a guy who had no intention of it being deemed rape. It's not his mistake, it's yours.
But basically, if a girl doesn't consent it's rape. Not the whiny "no" while they keep doing s**t with the guy, straight up no and stop, pushing him away, etc.
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:23 pm
Don't even get me started on how dumb statutory laws are. Or why the ******** state laws of consent differ from federal laws when it doesn't matter you'll still get prosecuted anyway because federal law trumps state law.
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:34 pm
unfathomable Indoloro unfathomable I don't know, three Saturdays ago kind of changed a lot of my perspective on this. I was really drunk at a party, and apparently I kissed a guy, which is nothing in of itself, but he ended up basically dragging me to my dorm and tearing off my clothes and making with sexy time. According to his story, I was into it, but I don't remember, and I definitely don't feel like it after. Apparently I stopped him and called my friend Dan to come get me because "oh my god Dan, I'm so drunk and this environment is so rapey." Anyway, I considered the event a sexual assault. I definitely recall feeling violated. Just because somebody acts one way when they're drunk, doesn't mean we all do, or even should have to. It should be somebody's responsibility to not sexually assault people, not for people to be blamed for not "defending themselves" probably, whatever that is even supposed to mean. tl;dr I don't think any crime is ever the victim's fault, so why would rape be any different? That's kind of begging the question as to whether or not there is a victim. Typically, someone isn't a victim until it's proven a crime occurred. If someone chooses to drink, then their actions that take place afterward are their responsibility. You wouldn't justify drunk driving by arguing the person's friends pressured them into it. It may not be the fault of the victim if someone else made them drive, but it's their responsibility. I don't think it's ever the girl's fault. Unless it's something very ambiguous like she verbally says no but continues to fool around with a person and eventually "gives in" to sex. I think most would agree that if the girl didn't get out of there and just "gave in," then deciding afterwards that it was unwanted doesn't make the sex rape. Just sex you regret. If you drink, you're consenting to being drunk. Everything that involves alcohol (hangovers, random bruises you get from knocking into things etc.) is your responsibility, but anything that could happen to you outside of being drunk, shouldn't be your fault. I could easily be raped, robbed, murdered, whatever when I was sober, so why is it suddenly partly my fault because I, or anybody else, ingested a certain chemical? The difference therein lies with the kind of rape. Rape at knife point after some drinks? Not your responsibility (when would it ever be?). Walking to a room with some guy who isn't threatening your life and going along with it because you're "not sure what's going on"? That's heading towards the gray area with exponential acceleration. Impaired judgement comes along with drinking. So making a choice that you might otherwise have not, like sleeping with someone, is part of that responsibility. I think it's pretty silly to count in date rape with serious, life threatening rape. The broadening of the definition demeans what it is to actually be raped.
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:41 pm
itt: a shitton of rape apology
It's not like I can expect much more from LSG, but it's still a bummer.
Also, people react differently to fear. People might not fight back, or might go along with it because they're afraid of the situation getting violent. Like I said before, just people somebody don't respond "correctly" (screaming, fighting back etc.) to a sexual assault doesn't mitigate it. Rape by knifepoint is just as bad as rape by boyfriend who coerces you into sex you don't want.
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:03 pm
So a man who threatens a girl with a knife and a man who thinks he's having consensual sex with a girl when she's going to tell herself something different in the morning are just as bad? Both are as big a threat to the rest of society?
If a person says no, verbally and physically, there is no question. If the 'rapist' is never told no in either of those ways, however, can you call that person a rapist when all that happened is one party felt like they didn't want it afterwards? That's called having a bad experience, not getting violated by a rapist.
With exception to statutory rape and cases where one party is drugged of course.
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:18 pm
I said rape, not the strawmen you keep bringing up. Not sex-you-regret, rape.
Also, silence isn't consent. YES is consent. And if the yes in question is not made at a time where rational thinking is possible, it's not a yes either. Those are the laws on the books.
I don't get why you'd want to argue these points. It's not as complicated as you seem to think.
And, I don't get all the focus on false accusations. We live in a world where most rapes go unreported, and the ones taken to trial end in convictions only 20% of the time. Only about 8% of those are false accusations, and those add in dropped charges (which could have been true). It's just there's a bigger headline in false rape accusations than actual ones, so the media inflates what is a final minor issue in the grand scheme of things, in terms of sexual assault. Those numbers mean a lot of rapists running around, and so much fewer false accusers.
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:04 am
Yes and No.
My roomie was raped last year, I feel like she could have easily avoided the whole situation by not being so completely ******** up on drugs. But the guys involved should have known she was messed up and not done that to her. :/
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:17 am
I'm pretty sure I meant to put this in Serious. Oops.
Oh well.
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:07 pm
I think if a sober person take advantage of a drunk person, that constitutes rape because frankly, the drunk person cna't really consent because they can't make a sound judgement.
I mean really, the sober person should be able to go, "They aren't really in the right place to be having sex. If I do it I am a jerk taking advantage..."
Not even my own boyfriend who I normally consent to sex with will have sex with me if I am drunk, because it's just not right.
Now if it is two drunk people going at it... well that is what happens when there is no sober person around to keep things under control yo. Neither person consented with sound reasoning but, you can't really charge both people for rape against one another because NEITHER person was sound at the time.
So NO, just because someone wears something sexy, or gets drunk does NOT mean they chose to get raped.
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:16 pm
unfathomable I said rape, not the strawmen you keep bringing up. Not sex-you-regret, rape. Also, silence isn't consent. YES is consent. And if the yes in question is not made at a time where rational thinking is possible, it's not a yes either. Those are the laws on the books. I don't get why you'd want to argue these points. It's not as complicated as you seem to think. And, I don't get all the focus on false accusations. We live in a world where most rapes go unreported, and the ones taken to trial end in convictions only 20% of the time. Only about 8% of those are false accusations, and those add in dropped charges (which could have been true). It's just there's a bigger headline in false rape accusations than actual ones, so the media inflates what is a final minor issue in the grand scheme of things, in terms of sexual assault. Those numbers mean a lot of rapists running around, and so much fewer false accusers. So if my boyfriend doesn't directly ask me if I want to have sex, but I go along with it silently, that's rape? I agree with Edge and Indoloro.
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:29 pm
Violent rape, no. If a woman is held at knife point or something similar and is raped, it is not her fault. Even if she's roofied, it's not her fault.
However, when alcohol or drugs are involved, this gets a lot harder to determine. I know this one girl who has been raped several times because she will go out drinking. get blackout drunk, and then have sex. From what I've heard, this has happened more than once...so yes, I would say that would be her fault for not being more careful with her body. But if a girl gets drunk and is in a sexual situation, tries to say no but is overpowered, no, that's not her fault.
So I'm with Indoloro (and Streets and Edge) on this. In certain situations, rape cannot be blamed on the woman. But in others, I don't think all the blame can lie completely on one person.
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:28 pm
When I was younger, I would sometimes find myself in uncomfortable situations where I was being kissed and fondled by a guy at a party, or a guy who I had liked well enough to walk away with, but had not expected to do more than make out with and talk privately.
I would say no, I don't want to go any further.. and they would push it. Kissing anyhow, touching, messing with my clothes. I would keep saying no, I don't think we should, we should go back, etc. This happened more than once because I'm really bad at being pro-active about my no. At some point I would just shut down and let them do their thing so they'd leave me alone and I could get on with feeling like a grossie.
I didn't want it, I didn't consent, I wasn't good at acknowledging this, and though I was obviously saying no, and obviously not into it (often referred to as a dead fish, lol), they kept on.
Would I consider this rape? Borderline. Not "sex I regret," which to me sounds like you were horny and you later thought "ew, with him?" or "Oh s**t that's my friend's boyfriend." Like fathy said- some people react poorly in unfavorable situations.
There were times when I was in the military, where higher-ups would mess around with me, and I felt again, powerless to stop them. I would give them poor excuses in an attempt not to upset them, but still try to convey that I was not interested in the actions taking place. For me it was a strange and awkward power line that I wasn't sure how to handle.
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:44 pm
Undecidability I know this one girl who has been raped several times because she will go out drinking. get blackout drunk, and then have sex. if she says it's "rape", even though it's happened more than once, and she still goes out and parties and gets wasted knowing full well what has happened to her and could happen to her again, then that's just plain ridiculous.
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:31 am
I don't really think rape is ever a girls fault.
The only time I'd say it even gets close is when she's blaming it on being drunk or just lies about it completely.
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