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They may not have made FE11 for the sake of adding new things into it, but they certainly didn't make it just to please people who don't use emulators. They made it for the sake of making a profit. This is a company we're talking about, after all. That being the case, there's no logical reason not to compare FE11 to other games in the series. And as they're in the same series, they're subject to comparison, whether it introduces the first FE story or not. And it has much worse characterization in a series somewhat known for that, among other things. How many years of advancement have taken place since FE1 was made? Without fixing it up for a remake, said remake is going to suck by comparison as a result... and wouldn't you know, that's the general consensus of the game. FE3 is technically a remake of FE1, and they updated for that at the time - heck they even put in a sequel.

They added a good deal of additional plot in the FF2 remake, you know, what with the "Dawn of Souls" content. All the content they added makes sense (adding something like Junctioning would be ridiculous since it actually fits the plot of VIII for example). Use of MP over Spell Points is an example of modernizing the content, just as adding support conversations in FE11 would have been. Besides, the game play of those is still passable by today's standards considering they're handhelds, and they actually added a lot of content with the remakes when you think about it. Not the case with FE11 when compared with others from its series. The least they could have done was include rescuing.

Oh, I certainly agree it’s likely they looked at it that way. But even in that case, the primary motive is profit. Yes it’s a remake… of the year 2009. And as it came out in 2009, it’s perfectly fair to compare FE11 to 2003’s FE7. We’re not comparing FE1 to FE7 or something; we’re comparing FE11. It’s plot might be excused because that’s the only thing necessary to call it a remake. But everything else about it? Fair game. Book I and Book II are part of the same title. If they’re part of the same title, how is that being part of the same game? And are you sure you don’t just want it to stay that way because you’re an SNES purist?

Yeah, they expanded on them… in a remake. I’m not asking for extreme modernizing, I’m asking for updates that keep something current. FE11 was like a step backwards. And aren’t the soldiers of Book II people also? I don’t see how that eliminates them from qualifying for a personality. It’s expansion. I have to ask again: are you sure you’re not being unfair just because of how fond you are of FE3? If something doesn't fit in a game, I agree, it shouldn't be added. But I find it difficult to believe adding personality wouldn't fit in the game.

Your post in another thread reminded me of this again. Shall we pick up where we left off? biggrin

Capturing people's hearts is an exaggeration, wouldn't you say? It's profit they sought by having people buy the game, not by having them fall in love with it. Westerners are quite familiar with SSBM and SSBB, so it's reasonable to expect Westerners will buy a game with him. You're saying it didn't do well because people don't know how to appreciate the classics? Maybe it's not because people aren't willing to appreciate classics so much as they took the gameplay a bunch of steps backwards instead of forwards. Consider the various innovations that have been made to FE gameplay since Marth's original and whether :
-Fog of War? No
-Rescuing? No
-Support conversations (specific to characters or otherwise)? No
-Skills? No
-Canto, even? No
-Even just a bloody trinity of magic? Nope (I'll give them some slack on that, though, as it wouldn't make sense in that world)
Ignoring some of those things would probably be acceptable, but all of them? Yeah, FE11 just went backwards in a lot of areas. It makes sense that FE fans would be unimpressed.

What DID they add?
-Class Swapping. Completely illogical for the FE series (and if they could add this, why were they too lazy to even add a trinity of magic?)
-Some Gaiden chapters and a few new characters to go along with them. Oh. And you have to have less then 15 party members alive in order to get them. I'll actually admit the Gaidens added to the game. But that whole 15 or less stipulation pissed off so many people it's SO not cute. No wonder the game gets hate.
-And they updated a few mechanics, formulas, and other minor features, and ditched dismounting among other things. BFD.

Yeah, all that considered, it's hard NOT to see FE11 as poor when compared with some of its predecessors. Saying "it shouldn't be compared because it's a remake" is absurd. FE3 has upgrades not present in FE1. I'm aware of that much. Maybe NA thought they were making improvements to the whole series and the like… if that's the case, they made huge misfires. The only thing it gets an excuse for is having the same plot, since it's a remake. Gameplay? Different story.

Sure, why the hell not? I have a book of rage to write on people who compare FE11 to the later series to write and I should get it out on someone who actually gives a damn (so thank you for caring, FD, I'm glad you're willing to let me ragerant to you)

Going back to my comparison to Final Fantasy series as I'm assuming you're familiar with it. Why the hell would you want to add a bunch of extra s**t to a game (see: FE11 and the many, many remakes of FF1) that's great already? I give you that Spell Points to MP was a small change, but honestly, it would have made no difference if they added that or not in the remakes of FFI.

You're listing all these things that are rather insignificant changed.

F.O.W- Who the hell cares? Not like FEDS would honestly be shot up to a 10/10 if they randomly decided to throw a couple in there. Besides, most battles are meant to be a straightforward war, and adding F.O.W would just add headache that this game does not need for a typical H__'er like me. Also, IIRC, multiplayer has F.O.W, it's not like they weren't considering it for the main game or anything (speculating). If they didn't put it in the main game, they didn't put it in for a reason. :/

Rescuing- Umm, so Sheeda rescues Marth, BECK THE LONG RANGED RAPIST rapes the boss, Sheeda drops Marth off, Marth seizes next turn, prophet. Rescuing would make this game too easy. Good riddance to rescuing if you ask me. Besides, lord knows how much Warp staffs you get in this game, why the hell would you want rescuing anyway?

Support convo- No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Frankly, I'm happy with little characterization. This is a remake of FE1, not a "let's give everyone personalities" game. Also, not to mention, it would have taken extra longer for them to add all the characterization, come up/make up all the personalities that it would just give the waiting fans at the time more to b***h about. :/

Skills- Why did you even bring this up? This isn't Tellius/Jugdral, FE6 and 7 (your oh so beloved game IIRC) didn't have them, FEDS2 doesn't have them, and I'm sure the next original FE won't have them.

Canto?

Going backwards- durp, it's a remake of FE1.

There's been worse ideas in FE (ie: world map navigation which failed twice, dismount system which they used in FE3 and got rid of, love system, branching promotion path, etc) Reclass is just an experiment, and frankly, I like it, it makes people useful and so instead of getting an army of Social Knights in Ch. 5, you can screw around with them to make Biraku actually useful.

If you haven't been doing your homework, death Gaidens are a failed experiment. They've since gotten rid of this idea. I agree with you on this one and I think we can both say "good riddance". And frankly, that's just preposterous to hate a game because you can't access a couple of chapters. I'm not saying this to you, but to the "FE fans" who hate this game because of the reclass system and the gaidens when I say: grow up, they're both optional parts of the game.

So all and all, I agree with you, this game may have gone back in terms of gameplay, but frankly, it's to be expected with a remake. Tell me one remake of the first game in any series that you played that can be fairly compared to the later series. Remakes are to be cherished in terms of nostalgia, not to be cherished in terms of how great they are. I admit, it's not fair for most of the NA to play this game not having to play FE1 back in 1990 (besides, we basically bitched about it until IS finally decided to bring it over, which I frankly hope FEDS2 doesn't come to NA as NA doesn't deserve it after the wondrous display we took on about the first one), but at least I'm smart enough to understand that this is a remake and is not to be compared to the later series.

PS: I'm not going to stop arguing you know until you finally realize what a dumb idea it is to compare FEDS to the later series. This is one of the biggest things that pisses me off in general, and I will do everything in my power to defend this game, even if it includes getting unpleasant, which I generally dislike doing. So sorry if I get pissy, just understand how much this annoys me when someone says "Oh, the story of FEDS sucks in comparison to FE9".

EDIT: Whoamg, text wall, haven't done that in awhile.

You know it's because I care~ heart Besides, I think it's completely legit to compare a remake's gameplay to some of it's more contemporary counterparts. Not the original, just the remake out of temporal consideration.

The Final Fantasy tends to change a LOT between installments to an extent that the Fire Emblem series does not. Every Fire Emblem is a turn based strategy game with a square grid, for example. If they made a real-time strategy game in the FE series, I’d understand not comparing it to other entries in the series… they haven’t. FEDS has enough in common with the other games that it’s open territory for comparison as far as I’m concerned.

They’re really not that insignificant. Individually, perhaps, but as a whole I’m pointing them out to show how comparatively unimpressive FE11 is by comparison. You say it shouldn’t matter because it’s a remake… and yet you support the reclass system even though that wasn’t in there to begin with, either. Double standard, perhaps? And if they ARE insignificant, then they should have put them in, because they wouldn’t have changed things substantially, while modernizing the gameplay substantially.

-FoW certainly didn't NEED to be put in, although it certainly could have found a place in the gaidens (FE5, much?). And FoW is certainly more than something that produces a headache. It adds a layer to the game play necessitates more strategy... for a strategy game (which you understand, I'm sure, being the FE5 fan you are). The point is incorporation of something like it would have brought it more up to date with what progress the series has had without destroying the spirit of the remake.

-Precautions could have easily been taken to prevent rescuing from being broken, you know. Them not incorporating it seems more like laziness to me. And I hope you’re aware of the double standard you’re using to refute the point: “Rescuing would be broken and make things easy. But Warp Staves make things easier anyway.” Okay? So something shouldn’t be incorporated on the grounds of it making the game too easy, but they already are. Given the size of some of these maps, Rescuing would hardly be broken. Meanwhile, it’s been a feature in every FE game since FE5 onward with the exception of… FEDS. Why should I want Rescue back? Because it updates the game, perhaps. Because it makes the gameplay a little more diverse, perhaps.

-Do bear in mind the West's first FE game had the most in-depth repertoire of support conversations in the series. And entry into the series since has featured them to some extent or other... oh, wait. Except FE11. And I highly suspect the next original FE game will have supports incorporated somehow. They've been successful. One of the most endearing things about the FE series to many people is the fact that the cast is so often fully fleshed out in characterization. Were supports not incorporable into FE11, given its remake status? Possibly. But in the eyes of most people, that makes it comparatively worse. It’s a legit criticism. Consider what they know of FE and what FEDS is.

-As with FoW, it’s an example of giving the game more depth, even if the specific example isn’t necessary. It’s not as if we can’t say they didn’t try to give the game more depth or the reclassing system wouldn’t been put in. But it was, which indicates to us that they indeed did try to change the gameplay… they just did it in really shitty ways.

To clear something up: FE7 ain’t my beloved. I’m quite well rounded when it comes to enjoying FE, I’d have to argue, and have invested myself in every game from FE4 onwards thus far. Also, plenty of people compare games like FE4 and 5 to more recent entries in the series. It has to be different with a remake because it’s based on an older game? Older games in this series get compared anyway.

Canto? Why couldn’t they have incorporated it, exactly? Being a remake isn’t an excuse. If they’re updating other things (oh look, I still double attack when my speed is sufficiently higher than someone else’s, but that wasn’t the case in earlier incarnations of this game), they could have damn well incorporated Canto. Even if was just re-move rather than Canto as it is in FE6-7, it would have made this game much more 2009 appropriate.

-Every feature you just listed as worse than reclassing, I’d take before reclassing itself (even dismounting – at least it’s logical). Plenty of people are quite fond of some of them also, and they don’t rape the logic of the game (plenty of people think the love system was fantastic, arguably better than supports, for example. Branched promotions gets quite a lot of love, too). Reclassing goes something like this: “I’m Merric, and I’ve been studying magic for years and am consequently able to use it. Now watch me pick up a sword I have no experience using! And ride a horse. Or even a wyvern!” Or, “I’m Cord/Maji, and have never touched anything magical before in my life, but watch me make a totally passable magic user.” For someone who’s defending the “nostalgia” the remake is supposed to invoke, your defense of reclassing coupled with your rejection of more plausible possible incorporations to gameplay they could have instead went with is dismantling your argument in a way.

-FE11’s Gaidens are yet another example that they certainly were trying to update the gameplay and did it really badly. Sure it got scrapped from FE12, and we can all be glad for that. But it IS in FE11, so why wouldn’t it get criticized (and this is coming from someone who DOES pursue those gaidens, as I plan my parties in advance to adhere to the requirements – I wouldn’t let anyone die otherwise, but I DO make the exception for FE11)? Feel free to compare that not just with recent FE installments, but ANY FE.

Saying going backwards in terms of gameplay is to be expected when they’re throwing things like reclassing and gaidens at us isn’t true. Also, why would a game even get a remake if it wasn’t a good game? Remakes are made for more than the sake of nostalgia in and of itself. There’s presumably some legit content to accompany it. It’s really not stupid at all to compare FEDS with other entries in the series. I’d be willing to compare it to FE4 if that would seem more appropriate. And FEDS would still pale in comparison. If comparing it to FE4 is unjust, comparing FE7 and FE10 would be unjust, too, but that's a completely legit comparison.

It's just, FEDS seems like the most half-assed, ******** up FE ever. Not including some things that had since been introduced to the series is understandable. But the extent to which FEDS does it is to be criticized and compared.

Quite frankly, I suspect I'd like FE3 much more.

Maji knows what Canto is, I assure you. He's played every game that features it.

Oh sorry, I forgot to include one skill in the GBA FE, FD, allow me to fix this.
Skills- Why did you even bring this up? This isn't Tellius/Jugdral/GBA versions, FE6, 7 (your oh so beloved game IIRC) and 8 didn't have them (sans steal), FEDS2 doesn't have them, and I'm sure the next original FE won't have them.

Sassy sarcasm aside, why the ******** would you need to steal in FEDS? You have gold and items flying out of your a**, stealing would just make this game easier. Don't even get me started on Assassins as there isn't any in FEDS cool Point is, skills aren't needed in FEDS as it would just make the game a joke, can you honestly imagine Zagaro being even more broken than he already is? confused