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 Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:58 pm
Koren-the-Phoenix Yanueh @Sheshedi: Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about whether something was "vegan" or not. I'd look into what kind of impact it has on the environment. Some vegan products are environmental nightmares, while some non-vegan products have very little impact. Very good point! @Vanilla eXee: Yes, but each egg you see in the market is an unborn chick never given a chance to be hatched. The same cannot be said about honey. BTW, I am not a vegan, or even a vegetarian.
No, food eggs come from hens that are kept without roosters. Just think, every bit of honey you eat was stolen from some poor baby bee who is now starving to death.
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:17 am
Koren-the-Phoenix Yanueh @Sheshedi: Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about whether something was "vegan" or not. I'd look into what kind of impact it has on the environment. Some vegan products are environmental nightmares, while some non-vegan products have very little impact. Very good point! @Vanilla eXee: Yes, but each egg you see in the market is an unborn chick never given a chance to be hatched. The same cannot be said about honey. BTW, I am not a vegan, or even a vegetarian. Not really. The eggs you see in the market never would be chicks, they are unfertilized, so pretty much they are the result of a chicken menstruation.
And honey is food for the bees. When honey is harvested only a portion of the combs containing honey from each hive are taken to be processed the rest are left for the bees. No bee keeper that has any clue what they are doing would take all the honey; the bees need to eat it to live and dead bees don't make honey. -Halo Fauna
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:26 am
@ Sakakikala
I've always detested the kitschy little terms for the variations in vegetarianism and omnivorism, the same way that I don't like people calling themselves Pecsetarians (sp) rather than plain old meat eaters, I don't appreciate the term Beegan, and really it doesn't wholly apply to me anyway. I'd be a Bee-woolgan and really that just sounds silly. Besides, almost no one knows the term. At best they might think they misheard me.
As to the conversation about sea creatures.
Octopi are incredibly intelligent and sensitive creatures. And if anyone tells you that squid are violent, you tell them that most studies done on squid were done underneath fishing vessels when the squid were being killed around and above the researchers, so of course they were confused and violent and trying to get away.
Research done on squid NOT right underneath killing grounds has returned with the understanding that they're curious, playful and beautiful creatures that wouldn't harm other squid or humans unless they're in a dire situation.
And about honey.
Honey is the food that bees eat throughout the winter but they often produce surplus. This is where traditional beekeepers take their role in helping the bees along and taking the surplus. If you take too much your bees starve and die in the winter, so good bee keepers won't.
Commercial bee keepers will rather than letting all that usable product go to waste, and with the natural consumption market's love of bees wax (which can also be produced in surplus) commercial bee keepers will often just kill the bees at the end of the summer to keep from having to leave them with anything. It's cheaper to get new bees than it is to leave them with all that product.
You're not stealing the food of a baby when you eat honey, you're eating their food stores. You have to be smart enough to get it from someone that you know didn't take all the food.
Edit again: @ Koren-the-Phoenix
What's that I heard? You have a societal aversion to abortion? If you ask most vegans it's not that eggs are unborn chickens that they have a problem with, it's that hens in commercial egg farms are terribly mistreated. Like. It's horrifyingly cruel and short and pretty much worse than a slaughter house in terms of suffering.
And as to hens that one might have on their home property, well, many vegans will say that it's not the hen's place to work for us.
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:31 am
The comparison still stands. Stealing honey is = to stealing eggs. Plus, as you said, commercial honey farmers probably just kill off the bees and get new ones rather than waste honey to keep them alive. So unless you buy special cruelty free honey, you did indeed eat some bees food.
I'm not veg or vegan either, but if you're going to commit to either one, then it's best to stick to it or not bother with it.
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:15 pm
 You can eat honey and still be a vegan.
Of course, there will be those crazy vegans that will disagree with you, but don't bother with them. They assume everything/everyone should be just like them and suggest all these things are bad for you since they believe every product that contains something from an animal is "cruel," although we nowadays some products are from "animal-friendly/safe," in which they do it naturally from animals rather than just kill them off or have some machine attach to them.
I'm a veg, but I will not become vegan since dairy is actually indeed very healthy for you.ยป Wouldn't you like to see something strange?_________________________ _______________________
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:12 pm
I think there are more reasons people become vegan than just perceived health benefits, but that's another fhread. Vegan means abstaining from all animal products, for whatever reason. Honey is an animal product. I think we've established this. I'm sure there are plenty of vegan substitutes for honey if you love it enough but you find your lifestyle more important.
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:07 am
misfit baby You can eat honey and still be a vegan. Of course, there will be those crazy vegans that will disagree with you, but don't bother with them. People who think honey isn't vegan are not necessarily crazy. misfit baby They assume everything/everyone should be just like them / Just because most vegans don't eat honey doesn't mean they expect everyone to be exactly like them. misfit baby and suggest all these things are bad for you since they believe every product that contains something from an animal is "cruel," although we nowadays some products are from "animal-friendly/safe," in which they do it naturally from animals rather than just kill them off or have some machine attach to them. The problem is that most of us don't know for sure exactly how animal products are obtained. I mean, we might know that there are more or less cruel methods. But most of us do not know exactly which method any certain company adopts. We don't visit the farm or the factory for ourselves to see. And a lot of companies even stamp things like "natural" or "free range" or "organic" on the label when it's actually a lie. So a lot of people think it's safer to just avoid the animal products in case cruelty was involved. Others argue that it's not possible to take an animal product without being cruel. For example, milking a cow doesn't kill the cow. So milk might not seem cruel. But most dairy cows are kept in fairly small cells. They're mammals. So like any other mammal, they make milk for their baby. That means in order to get the milk, the dairy farmers usually keep the cows hopped up on pregnancy hormones or they repeatedly get the cow pregnant, sell the baby for veal, and take the milk. Not a pretty picture. misfit baby I'm a veg, but I will not become vegan since dairy is actually indeed very healthy for you. Dairy has calcium, and calcium is good. However, there are vegan ways to get calcium. And most dairy products have a ton of fat. With heart disease being the number one killer in America and with obesity being a huge problem, dairy products actually are not that healthy for most of us. Vegan alternatives for calcium would be better for most people.
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:16 am
IMO, Hive minded animals are one being, so it's about the same as milk. It may harm single bees, but the hive is fine, and benefits from the protection of a human habitat. This is a symbiotic bond that helps both parties.
I myself am a lacto(No calf rennet or pepsin cheeses)-ovo(CHICKEN MENSTRUATION!) vegetarian, and idealist. I believe that since I cannot track the individual sources of things, I simply should build my lifestyle on the ideal, while discouraging cruelty to other sentient beings. Such as, you know, raising them to be slaughtered.
I say it's really all a matter of how much you care about bees.
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:14 pm
i don't eat honey!!! i was just asking becuase my mom didn't explain the topic to me and i haven't eaten honey for about two years, so stop jumping the gun *as my grandma will say*
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:56 pm
shesheli i don't eat honey!!! i was just asking becuase my mom didn't explain the topic to me and i haven't eaten honey for about two years, so stop jumping the gun *as my grandma will say* I don't think anyone here is jumping the gun. People have just started debating the topic amongst themselves. It is not directed at you in any way.
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:02 pm
oh sowwy thatnks, i don't get the way my brain works, but i actual i was jumpingg the gun!
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:39 pm
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:38 pm
LorienLlewellyn misfit baby I'm a veg, but I will not become vegan since dairy is actually indeed very healthy for you. Dairy has calcium, and calcium is good. However, there are vegan ways to get calcium. And most dairy products have a ton of fat. With heart disease being the number one killer in America and with obesity being a huge problem, dairy products actually are not that healthy for most of us. Vegan alternatives for calcium would be better for most people. Research is showing that fat isn't the killer it's been made out to be, though. This knowledge is rather slow in taking off among the general populace, but it is taking off. America's case of obesity has a lot more to do with processed sugar and white flour than it does fat.
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:03 pm
disclaimer: I'm not vegan or vegetarian
Of course bees are animals. Animal by-products aren't vegan, therefore honey is not vegan. that doesn't mean much to me because I find extremist vegan PETA-types to be odd and hypocritical. Obviously there are exceptions to that, so this isn't meant to offend anyone. Personally I despise honey but I've thought seriously about raising some bees. I don't know if that would make me a bad person or not. I don't feel like I'd be ruining the bees lives by giving them a place to live. I'm not sure though, as I've never been a bee.
Research shows that plants can feel pain and react to being cut. Does that mean we shouldn't eat vegetables, fruits, herbs and other plants either? I'm honestly not sure. I find it's best not to think about it too much.
For me the problem with eggs isn't that they are "chicks that never had a chance" because that logic is the same as the old "every sperm is sacred" mindset, which I find ridiculous. It's the way chickens are raised and kept in tiny quarters. When I was a kid and we had a farm we had a few hens who laid eggs and we ate them. They roamed free during the day and retreated to their coop at night and seemed to be very happy hens. I still have no issues with buying locally raised eggs as long as I've seen the facility and know how the animals are cared for.
In my experience the best practice isn't to adopt a particular lifestyle with a name. I pretty much weigh every decision individually rather than place a label on it. I care about the well-being of the animals and the environmental impact.
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:31 pm
Yanueh Research is showing that fat isn't the killer it's been made out to be, though. This knowledge is rather slow in taking off among the general populace, but it is taking off. America's case of obesity has a lot more to do with processed sugar and white flour than it does fat. There is good fat and bad fat. A lot of our health problems probably are related to all the sugar and white flour. But that doesn't mean that other things (such as saturated fat and cholesterol) don't play a big part too. Maybe at some point they'll say that cholesterol and saturated fat are not that bad for us (it seems they're always changing things like that!), but for the time being, the American Heart Association is still recommending that people seriously limit their cholesterol and saturated fat intake. So I'm still not willing to call cheese "very healthy" or the best way to get calcium.
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