Welcome to Gaia! ::

Because we are advanced animals, we should be able to realize that protecting our fellow animals and their habitats is of utmost importance. This human God complex is what sets us apart. The desire to succeed despite everyone and everything else. It doesn't mean we're better than lower forms of life; it's a flaw at best. I will never agree with placing humanity above all else. It just doesn't work that way. We need our environment more than it needs us.

We are unique, not only as a species, but also as individuals. The truth is the truth. Animals don't lie or manipulate. Only humans do that, and there is always a motive for it. The question is, what is the motive?

Calling the truth the truth is not a negative thing. It is the only way to truly determine what a problem is, and how to solve it.

This is not about whether or not we should care for the animals. Of course we should, and we do. We have a greater capacity to care, to help, to consider all that we do, not only for the good of this big blue marble that we live on, but also for all of its inhabitants. No other species has this ability, or more importantly, this desire.

Yes, we are different. We have a responsibility to do the best for all, within our power. We have the ability to solve complex problems to that end, which no other species does. There are not veterinary clinics in reverse for a reason. We are not equal, and will never be.

Well, it isn't all that surprising that she feels that way, the US along with many European nations were founded on the same Catholic moral principals that state we must protect human life before all others, and god just put animals here to keep us entertained...so we can treat them like we would a teddy bear. All hugs when it is convenient and toss them in the garbage when we are done with them. I think in the end in this thread we will have to agree to disagree. I believe in abortion and birth control, and I also believe that one species of animal is just as important as another. So if a few human lives have to be poorer, or more crowded so that a species that has just as much right to live on this planet as we do (in some cases more since we no longer live where evolution intended for us to live) can continue to live and evolve in the ecosystem it needs then so be it.

As for us being better than other animals because of our abilities. Let me toss you in the ocean. For all your keen mental abilities, your still shark bait, I guess the sharks abilities must be greater than yours. And as for how strongly you feel...how do you know? I have seen mother birds attack their natural enemies, actually they have attacked me too, to defend their babies. Just because you don't understand an animals emotions doesn't mean they don't have them. Most importantly they still feel pain and loss. To use and abuse animals is morally and ethically wrong. You talk about the problems caused by being told we are "just" animals...that sounds like one noble telling another that peasants are meant to be ruled, to sweep your castle and grow your food. Regardless the age or purpose it still sounds horribly arrogant and self centered. I for one am proud to be an animal. =D

Yep. Unfortunately I think it does just come down to beliefs.

There were some slavers in the South that used to say the same thing I believe. Ever heard of manifest destiny? It is were the white man, believing in his superiority stole the land from Native Americans, and killed hundred of thousands in the process. You said that: your own spirit tells you that if you that slavery is wrong, and yet you spout the words that every slaver lived their lives by. =D


Oh, final thought, I am a ordained minister, and a Christian. It just makes me sad to see the evil things people are willing to do in the name of religion.

I had a similar debate with a group of proud patriots who thought that someone giving water in the desert to illegal Mexicans crossing was a massive criminal and should be sent to prison. Since this is our land, we have to defend it, or some such thing. Really? Is that what your Jesus would have done? Let 'em die and send the jerk to prison who was showing pity on fellow humans. It's amazing how things can be bent and twisted to suit our needs.

It's not really a matter of opinion as much as it is a matter of understanding in my opinion. People who think humans are better, smarter, more compassionate, etc. usually just don't have a good understanding of current rsearch, theories of multiple intelligences, the limits of intelligence tests, etc.

Given what we currently know, it is impossible to definitively say that humans are smarter, more creative, or more compassionate than other animals. We do not have ways to fully communicate with them or to get inside their heads. So while studies may suggest what is going on in there, we don't know 100%.

There are many cases of compassion and potentially deep thought in non-human animals. There are cases of elephants coming to the rescue of other elephants. There are cases of animals raising orphans of another animal, even another species. There are cases of mother apes carrying the body of their dead baby, seemingly unable to let go. Some animals seem to go into a deep depression when a cage mate, partner, or family member dies. Sometimes perfectly healthy animals will stop eating and starve after such a loss. Yes, there may be explanations other than loss, friendship, and compassion. But we certainly cannot disprove the presence of those things either. So we cannot assume our compassion is greater or better in any way.

Humans might seem more intelligent than other animals. We use computers, they don't. We do better on intelligence tests. However, that doesn't prove we're smarter. When we give an animal an intelligence test, we're the ones who made the intelligence test. That means they're all biased towards humans to begin with. For all we know, other animals could have an intelligence that is equal or even greater than our own. But that intelligence could be so vastly different that we can't even dream of how to test for it.

But even with human created and human biased tests, we're finding out that many animals are smarter than we ever dreamed. Current studies suggest that certain animals (including parrots and apes) are at least as intelligent as a human toddler. So imagine what potential might be there that we just haven't thought of a way to test for yet!

Many animals use language in ways we never thought before either, and all because we just couldn't hear or couldn't understand what they were saying! But we now know that elephants appear to have a distress call. Apes in captivity were found using different hoots and hollers depending on what they were being fed, as if the first apes fed were yelling, "It's apples again!" to the rest! And many apes have been taught sign language.

So until we start thinking of intelligence as something more than just "speaking English and using a computer," or until we can read minds, we can't say we're better, smarter, more compassionate, or anything else. The research just isn't there to support those claims.