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 Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:31 pm
Imitation Stradivarius God indeed, created all. He spoke everything into being with the exception of Adam and Eve. He made Adam out of the dust of the ground and Eve from Adam's rib. Lucifer was God's right hand man, his body gurad so to speak. Lucifer got it in his head one day that he could be like God and rise above God's throne. God Know everything that has happened and will happen. But just because He knows what will be does not mean that He has taken away our free will. God created Lucifer becuase He loved Him. God let Adam and Eve eat the fruit because He loved them and He gave them free will. The issue isn't whether or not God needed a balance between good and evil. The issue is the matter of free will. Without free will, there can be no love. All of God's creatures have free will because He is a loving God. God is Love. People may argue the point by holding up the Old Testament, but how many times did God tell people that He loved them in the OT? (I don't know, but it was a lot and you can't make me go count it). Well, it depends whether we have free will or not. I know some people believe in determinism. And I thought God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the apple? I kinda hold more weight in the OT and not that "because God loves you all He allows you to sin."
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:38 pm
Shmearwhiz Imitation Stradivarius God indeed, created all. He spoke everything into being with the exception of Adam and Eve. He made Adam out of the dust of the ground and Eve from Adam's rib. Lucifer was God's right hand man, his body gurad so to speak. Lucifer got it in his head one day that he could be like God and rise above God's throne. God Know everything that has happened and will happen. But just because He knows what will be does not mean that He has taken away our free will. God created Lucifer becuase He loved Him. God let Adam and Eve eat the fruit because He loved them and He gave them free will. The issue isn't whether or not God needed a balance between good and evil. The issue is the matter of free will. Without free will, there can be no love. All of God's creatures have free will because He is a loving God. God is Love. People may argue the point by holding up the Old Testament, but how many times did God tell people that He loved them in the OT? (I don't know, but it was a lot and you can't make me go count it). Well, it depends whether we have free will or not. I know some people believe in determinism. And I thought God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the apple? I kinda hold more weight in the OT and not that "because God loves you all He allows you to sin." I must agree. God did give us free will, that, however doesn't mean we should "sin" (by the way sin is not some icky religious word it's an archery term for missing the mark) although we will mess up, God will still always love us and seek that special relationship with us.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:03 am
Zslone2 Ya I'm not a christian as the title of the topic says (I'm Pagan in the event anyone wants to know) Now i have a few questions for you all. Then come in order and I just need them answered as they are posted. Please don't attempt to convert me or I will be severely pissed at all of you for attempting such an act. G-d is the creator of everything correct? This including Luciph-r and Adam and Eve correct? IHello there. I too am Christian Gnostic. I want you to know up front that we reject the Old Testament, mostly, while embracing the Gospels. Our Cosmology is different, and too alien to effectively explain over the web, but is as deeply steeped in Judaism as the other version. (Not all Jews were Pharisee). I can't tell you of all the reasons we reject the old testament god without offending someone, but I can tell you that we don't have a creation "day" or even six. We have an emanations cosmology. Meaning that in the beginning(the story is told in linear time, though it is understood as Alpha and Omega) God has His First thought. Now being God, and being this first thought, it is a self knowing thought. Meaning that it is a living thought. We call this thought the Logos. The Logos is an androgenous form, male/female syzygy. The male form(known to the world as Christ) and the female form (Known to the world as Sophia) represent Love and Wisdom respectively. Sophia, began contemplating herself and fell. This fallen Sophia, though she never left the heavens, represents fallen wisdom, or human wisdom. Sophia, being wisdom, even in a fallen state, knew She had fallen and panicked. She tried to call forth Her inner Light without Her consort. What She got was an abortion, a self aware thought. But this thought was blind(and quite insane) and thought there was nothing above Him. So he said, "I am God and there is none above me" And He created the universe, and created a throne for Himself, and Angels without number. Sophia saw what She had done and repented. She spoke to her misbegotten child from outside his throne. Instead of repenting his mistake, he tried to create a race of slaves to serve him. The syzygy of the Logos(remember them?) took pity on this race of slaves and entered the body of a serpent, and told them who they really were. The creator threw them out of the garden and cursed them to a life of toil so that they would not have time to dedicate their lives to the Holy Spirit. It's longer, and more complicated, but it involves a creation process that has stars being born as the aeons are created, and planets and moons being emanated from stars. This insane creator still rules over the universe, causing fair winds for ships, and storms to sink them. Any Questions?
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:01 am
Shmearwhiz Imitation Stradivarius God indeed, created all. He spoke everything into being with the exception of Adam and Eve. He made Adam out of the dust of the ground and Eve from Adam's rib. Lucifer was God's right hand man, his body gurad so to speak. Lucifer got it in his head one day that he could be like God and rise above God's throne. God Know everything that has happened and will happen. But just because He knows what will be does not mean that He has taken away our free will. God created Lucifer becuase He loved Him. God let Adam and Eve eat the fruit because He loved them and He gave them free will. The issue isn't whether or not God needed a balance between good and evil. The issue is the matter of free will. Without free will, there can be no love. All of God's creatures have free will because He is a loving God. God is Love. People may argue the point by holding up the Old Testament, but how many times did God tell people that He loved them in the OT? (I don't know, but it was a lot and you can't make me go count it). Well, it depends whether we have free will or not. I know some people believe in determinism. And I thought God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the apple? I kinda hold more weight in the OT and not that "because God loves you all He allows you to sin." Yes, God did warn them not to eat the fruit because they would surely die. And God does allow us to sin because He loves us. This fact is true to me. And because we freely choose to sin, we are born spiritually dead. Yes, God has allowed a catch 22 scenario. He created us to be perfect, but we're not, so we're screwed. But then, millennia pass and God says, "All right! Enough! I've had it with you people!" in a sense and He sends Jesus into the world to save it by His blood. How can you have love if you do not have free will? If you didn't have free will, how would you know if you truly loved your cat, Spot, or that you truly loved the taste of Seafood Alfredo from Olive Garden, or that feeling of falling you get when you drive especially fast over hills?
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:02 am
MidnightShadowLights Shmearwhiz Imitation Stradivarius God indeed, created all. He spoke everything into being with the exception of Adam and Eve. He made Adam out of the dust of the ground and Eve from Adam's rib. Lucifer was God's right hand man, his body gurad so to speak. Lucifer got it in his head one day that he could be like God and rise above God's throne. God Know everything that has happened and will happen. But just because He knows what will be does not mean that He has taken away our free will. God created Lucifer becuase He loved Him. God let Adam and Eve eat the fruit because He loved them and He gave them free will. The issue isn't whether or not God needed a balance between good and evil. The issue is the matter of free will. Without free will, there can be no love. All of God's creatures have free will because He is a loving God. God is Love. People may argue the point by holding up the Old Testament, but how many times did God tell people that He loved them in the OT? (I don't know, but it was a lot and you can't make me go count it). Well, it depends whether we have free will or not. I know some people believe in determinism. And I thought God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the apple? I kinda hold more weight in the OT and not that "because God loves you all He allows you to sin." I must agree. God did give us free will, that, however doesn't mean we should "sin" (by the way sin is not some icky religious word it's an archery term for missing the mark) although we will mess up, God will still always love us and seek that special relationship with us. Yup. The actual word is hamar, but I bet you already knew that one, too. It makes me happy that you know this. mrgreen And I'm still holding to what I said before. He loves us, so He lets us do our thing, then He steps in and has us do His thing - whatever it may be.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:07 am
Soulgazer the Gnostic Zslone2 Ya I'm not a christian as the title of the topic says (I'm Pagan in the event anyone wants to know) Now i have a few questions for you all. Then come in order and I just need them answered as they are posted. Please don't attempt to convert me or I will be severely pissed at all of you for attempting such an act. G-d is the creator of everything correct? This including Luciph-r and Adam and Eve correct? IHello there. I too am Christian Gnostic. I want you to know up front that we reject the Old Testament, mostly, while embracing the Gospels. Our Cosmology is different, and too alien to effectively explain over the web, but is as deeply steeped in Judaism as the other version. (Not all Jews were Pharisee). I can't tell you of all the reasons we reject the old testament god without offending someone, but I can tell you that we don't have a creation "day" or even six. We have an emanations cosmology. Meaning that in the beginning(the story is told in linear time, though it is understood as Alpha and Omega) God has His First thought. Now being God, and being this first thought, it is a self knowing thought. Meaning that it is a living thought. We call this thought the Logos. The Logos is an androgenous form, male/female syzygy. The male form(known to the world as Christ) and the female form (Known to the world as Sophia) represent Love and Wisdom respectively. Sophia, began contemplating herself and fell. This fallen Sophia, though she never left the heavens, represents fallen wisdom, or human wisdom. Sophia, being wisdom, even in a fallen state, knew She had fallen and panicked. She tried to call forth Her inner Light without Her consort. What She got was an abortion, a self aware thought. But this thought was blind(and quite insane) and thought there was nothing above Him. So he said, "I am God and there is none above me" And He created the universe, and created a throne for Himself, and Angels without number. Sophia saw what She had done and repented. She spoke to her misbegotten child from outside his throne. Instead of repenting his mistake, he tried to create a race of slaves to serve him. The syzygy of the Logos(remember them?) took pity on this race of slaves and entered the body of a serpent, and told them who they really were. The creator threw them out of the garden and cursed them to a life of toil so that they would not have time to dedicate their lives to the Holy Spirit. It's longer, and more complicated, but it involves a creation process that has stars being born as the aeons are created, and planets and moons being emanated from stars. This insane creator still rules over the universe, causing fair winds for ships, and storms to sink them. Any Questions? *raises hand* How can you claim to be a Christian and completely demean God in such a way as to call Him insane and say that He was an "abortion"? Jesus and God are one in the same. In the Old Testament, God says that He loves us and has not rejected us. Now tell me how a just and loving God can put the human race to toil in the fields to prevent them from knowing Him?
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:30 am
Imitation Stradivarius Soulgazer the Gnostic Zslone2 Ya I'm not a christian as the title of the topic says (I'm Pagan in the event anyone wants to know) Now i have a few questions for you all. Then come in order and I just need them answered as they are posted. Please don't attempt to convert me or I will be severely pissed at all of you for attempting such an act. G-d is the creator of everything correct? This including Luciph-r and Adam and Eve correct? IHello there. I too am Christian Gnostic. I want you to know up front that we reject the Old Testament, mostly, while embracing the Gospels. Our Cosmology is different, and too alien to effectively explain over the web, but is as deeply steeped in Judaism as the other version. (Not all Jews were Pharisee). I can't tell you of all the reasons we reject the old testament god without offending someone, but I can tell you that we don't have a creation "day" or even six. We have an emanations cosmology. Meaning that in the beginning(the story is told in linear time, though it is understood as Alpha and Omega) God has His First thought. Now being God, and being this first thought, it is a self knowing thought. Meaning that it is a living thought. We call this thought the Logos. The Logos is an androgenous form, male/female syzygy. The male form(known to the world as Christ) and the female form (Known to the world as Sophia) represent Love and Wisdom respectively. Sophia, began contemplating herself and fell. This fallen Sophia, though she never left the heavens, represents fallen wisdom, or human wisdom. Sophia, being wisdom, even in a fallen state, knew She had fallen and panicked. She tried to call forth Her inner Light without Her consort. What She got was an abortion, a self aware thought. But this thought was blind(and quite insane) and thought there was nothing above Him. So he said, "I am God and there is none above me" And He created the universe, and created a throne for Himself, and Angels without number. Sophia saw what She had done and repented. She spoke to her misbegotten child from outside his throne. Instead of repenting his mistake, he tried to create a race of slaves to serve him. The syzygy of the Logos(remember them?) took pity on this race of slaves and entered the body of a serpent, and told them who they really were. The creator threw them out of the garden and cursed them to a life of toil so that they would not have time to dedicate their lives to the Holy Spirit. It's longer, and more complicated, but it involves a creation process that has stars being born as the aeons are created, and planets and moons being emanated from stars. This insane creator still rules over the universe, causing fair winds for ships, and storms to sink them. Any Questions? *raises hand* How can you claim to be a Christian and completely demean God in such a way as to call Him insane and say that He was an "abortion"? Jesus and God are one in the same. In the Old Testament, God says that He loves us and has not rejected us. Now tell me how a just and loving God can put the human race to toil in the fields to prevent them from knowing Him? From the Christian Gnostic view point God and the Creator are separate beings with the Creator significantly lesser than God. Also Jesus is God but Jesus is not the Creator. I disagree with Soulgazer on this though in that I don't see the Creator as malevolent but rather imperfect and that the negative view of the Creator is meant to represent very drastically how we are free from the old Covenant and are part of the New Covenant. Jewish theology has a different idea of Love than we do. The love described in Judaism is the love a leader has for one's people, basically justice. The love talked about in Christian theology is Agape which is the love describing Charity and Compassion rather than Justice. If you pissed of the Creator, the Creator is going to punish you. Though it may seem we can piss off God, we really can't which is why we are offered forgiveness. The Creator offers forgiveness but it is at a price. God offers forgiveness that is freely available to all. Also most Gnostics reject the OT all together since it is basically the Law of Moses, and a stumbling block and veil to keep us from God, as Paul states in 2 Cor 3. Also we have our own creation story, On the Origin of the World. You can google it or I can provide a link to it if you would like.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:33 am
I think I've confused myself. Is YHWH the Creator or God?
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:45 am
Sanguina Cruenta I think I've confused myself. Is YHWH the Creator or God? In Judaism and traditional Christianity YHVH is both. In the Gnostic view point YHVH is just the Creator. Culturally I understand God in terms of YHVH and I can call him YHVH because "I am who I am" is a pretty nice short hand way of describing the ineffable but the YHVH described in Judaism is not the God that I know. The God that I know is the one I came to know through Christ. As to IS's comments about wondering how one can call YHVH insane, tell me this why would a loving God "test" the faithfulness of one of his followers by telling him to kill his first born Son? Why would a God who is all forgiving, destroy his creation with a great flood? Why would a God that is loving, tell his people to leave no survivors including the women and children? Also why would Christ rebuke his disciples for suggesting that he do as Elijah did and destroy the city that rejected them? I can find the verses to all of these if you would like.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:03 am
I'm confused as to why an all-knowing god would need to test someone's faith anyway.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:07 am
Sanguina Cruenta I'm confused as to why an all-knowing god would need to test someone's faith anyway. That's a good question. I can't think of any reason. Maybe someone here can provide an answer.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:16 am
Imitation Stradivarius *raises hand* How can you claim to be a Christian and completely demean God in such a way as to call Him insane and say that He was an "abortion"? Jesus and God are one in the same. In the Old Testament, God says that He loves us and has not rejected us. Now tell me how a just and loving God can put the human race to toil in the fields to prevent them from knowing Him? Yes, Jesus and God are one and the same. That is made clear in the mythology. However the portrayal that Jesus gave is unlike any portrayal before. Valentinian christianity, that would be the Christian Gnostic, sought a balance between the Marcionite "Crestions" and Judeo christianity. This was long before orthodoxy had declared for any party, and each party had only their own scriptures. Marcionite Christianity extended across all of the then known world, while Judeo Christianity numbered just a few thousand Jewish converts. Records interpreted by scholars indicate Marcionites made up from a third to as many as three quarters of the christian religion circa 150AD. (Understand that there are new Gnostics that have rewritten the gnostic to conform to their new views, but the church I pastor is very traditional.) In this story, the false god represented by the creator supports another Gnostic Scripture, and the only Gnostic scripture in the bible, "The Gospel of John". In the Gospel of John, John writes "No man has seen the father at any time". This is a direct refutation of the stories in the old testament. Another direct refutation, is when Jesus said, "All, as many as ever came before me, are as thieves and robbers" Apologist for the Judeo-Christian sects have refuted this verse, saying that it could not possibly mean what it says. Some say that He was talking about previous Messiah figures; however that argument is easily derailed by reading how Jesus referred to these Shepherds as "Hirelings". No one can "Hire" a Shepherd except the owner of the Flock. Again, we do not take our creation story as literal; Certainly not as Litiral as the Marcionites who literally demonized Jehovah. It's a bronze age explanation for how everything came to be, but it's a story with an important message. It's also a balance between two extremist groups. To understand the Marcionite point of view, I recommend that you read this: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3827/the_antithesis_cb.htmlQuote: In reading the Old Testament we must decide whether the prophets who wrote for their god Jehovah told many lies about him, or if what they said about him is really true. If they wrote lies, then we must discount all they said about their god along with the entire Old Testament record of Jehovah's activity. If they really did tell the truth, we learn that their god Jehovah was a vicious tyrant god that is jealous, lies and creates evil. In this writing we will take the position that they were truthful. The Gnostic takes the position that there were many untruth's told about God, and Jesus alone brought the truth. If you have any other questions or comments, I am always at your service.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:18 am
rmcdra I looks like someone is leading up to disprove genesis. Honestly learn something about symbolism in Judaism and re-read it interpreting the symbols. It makes much more sense that way than to see it as a historical telling of who we are. It's an allegory about who we are. If you don't like that story check out the gnostic text, On the Origin of the World. It puts a radical twist on Genesis. He's asking Christians. Gnostic text =/= Christian text.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:22 am
rmcdra Sanguina Cruenta I'm confused as to why an all-knowing god would need to test someone's faith anyway. That's a good question. I can't think of any reason. Maybe someone here can provide an answer. Romans 5:1-4 (NIV) 1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. That help? God tests our faith, because suffering produces perseverance, which produces character which produces hope.
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