|
|
| Latias: Uber or OU? |
| Uber |
|
54% |
[ 12 ] |
| OU |
|
45% |
[ 10 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 22 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:18 am
Scipio320 OU cause she has actual counters Namely?
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:07 am
Scipio320 OU cause she has actual counters
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:26 pm
Kyrenx Scipio320 OU cause she has actual counters Yeah. Latias can prove to be an annoying Pokemon :/ Recover just makes the matters all worst <_<
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:01 pm
Koishii X In my opinion, Latias should have never been taken out of Ubers. I voted OU, yes, but I will later list my reasons as to why it can also fit into OU. Anyways, back onto topic as to why I think Latias should remain as an Uber Pokemon. 1. Latias is very hard to take down. Latias has a max speed of 350 which not many Pokemon can outspeed. The Pokemon that do outspeed or tie in speed with Latias are namely special oriented Pokemon. These Pokemon are really, in my opinion, no match for the likes of Latias. Latias has an above average special defense stat, not to mention, can be boosted by the use of Calm Mind. 2. Latias has a rather large selection of attacks. One player can turn Latias into a status inducer, while others will turn it into a special sweeper. Now some will say, "who cares? we've seen plenty of Pokemon that do these tasks." Well, how many Pokemon have you seen do this with a speed stat of 350? :/ most players will try their best to prevent being paralyzed, or prevent screen setups with the use of Taunt. 3. The use of Recover alone pisses people off. The game would become a stall war. Possible OU counters: CB Mamoswine, Scarf Tyranitar, SD Weavile, Scizor I don't like the looks of that list, keep Latias in Ubers. I don't like building teams that REQUIRE you to have one of these select Pokemon in hopes of taking down ONE Pokemon. As KuraiKitty said in the Garchomp thread, it kills originality. Now, the argument for keeping Latias in OU. 1. Fragile Defense stat (is easily taken down by many physical oriented attacks) 2. Easily walled by Blissey That's about all I can think of :/ In conclusion, throw Latias into Ubers. I retract my OU vote.
Let's not forget that Latias not only has Recover, but Roost, Refresh, and Safeguard, as well. Defensively, it can Dual Screen, Recover, AND Calm Mind, while also running over 100 base Speed, Special Defense, and Special Attack.
Its wide movepool with access to Calm Mind, Refresh, Recover, and/or a +Speed nature (notably Timid) make it deadly enough to contend with on its own, assuming that it's not running a Draco Meteor Specs set. Two of its most notable counters- namely Pursuit Scizor and Tyranitar- can all be taken down with HP Fire for the former, and Grass Knot/Surf for the latter, provided that Calm Mind has been used at least twice. Scarf T-tars and SB Mamoswine are still real threats, but Weavile needs to choose carefully between setting up an SD (and risking HP Fire KOing it) or choosing to go for a 2HKO, instead.
As stated earlier, Latias can run sets running the gamut from extremely offensive to extremely defensive, making it not only unpredictable, but frustrating, as well. No other Pokémon can claim to be so bulky while also running such high offensive stats and still having one of the highest speed stats in the entire OU tier.
Psycho Shift throws status-inflicting Blisseys into a conundrum, allowing Latias to throw said conditions back into Serene Grace Blisseys' faces while a turn wasted on Aromatherapy lets Latias switch out easily in favor of a better counter. (Alternatively, Thunder Wave Blisseys that attempt to re-status are wonderful bait for Electivire, while Toxic ones are easily stopped with a Steel or Poison type.) Natural Cure Blisseys are forced out when hit with Psycho Shift, giving Latias an opportunity to either setup with Calm Mind or just hit the big pink Sp. Def sponge as hard as it can.
Thunder Wave lets Latias effectively force the enemy into choosing whether to gamble with her on the field and keep their Pokémon in, or switch and risk her setting up a Calm Mind set.
Latias WILL kill originality, as well.
Latias for Ubers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:55 pm
Please dont take my beloved Bianca away! crying I vote OU!
Why dont you just restrict the use of HP healinm moves on certain Pokemon? I mean hey, you did that to Double Team.
And on the topic of Evasion, what about pokemon that get an evasion boost from Hail/Sandstorm? Are those Pokemon permitted?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:28 pm
Zangaxel Tybalt Please dont take my beloved Bianca away! crying I vote OU!
Why dont you just restrict the use of HP healinm moves on certain Pokemon? I mean hey, you did that to Double Team.
And on the topic of Evasion, what about pokemon that get an evasion boost from Hail/Sandstorm? Are those Pokemon permitted?
Pokemon that have access to abilities such as Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are allowed to be used and those abilities are carefully considered when it comes to the evaluation of the total effectiveness of any particular Pokemon as a whole. As unlike Double Team, the evasion from the abilities cannot be consecutively stacked and remains at a one time boost of 20% to evasion, while as Double Team can be used multiple times up to a maximum boost of 60% to evasion, leaving a stern 40 percent chance to miss no matter what move you use (unless it's an auto-hit move such as Aerial Ace). With those numbers being thrown around, the item BrightPowder is also banned from use by all Pokemon, to prevent this breach of the 20% boost allowance in Evasion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:09 pm
Alright depending on the set you can counter latias with scizor and tyranitar blissey and maybe metagross and it can be revenge killed by azelf weavile etc and if it has prior damage ice shard from mamoswine and donphan can alsokill it
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:29 am
Scipio320 Alright depending on the set you can counter latias with scizor and tyranitar blissey and maybe metagross and it can be revenge killed by azelf weavile etc and if it has prior damage ice shard from mamoswine and donphan can alsokill it As I pointed out in the Garchomp thread, yes every pokemon has some sense of a counter regardless of what set up each poke is being runned with. That is a true point but there are so many factors that are also considered in placing a poke in a certain tier. As pointed out by most of our peers, (Namely Kuraikitty, KoishiiX, and KyrenX) Latias boosts an impressive selection in its move pool, as well as having the stats to set up whatever it needs up with little resistance, toping it with access to many supportive moves like calm mind, reflect, light screen, and recover, which allows to stall and set up. Also last to point out, T-Tar, supposely one of Latias's counters, still can be 2HKOed by it via grass knot, not including calm mind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:53 am
There is a counter for every set you just need to figure out which one it is for example someone who is running grass not on a latias will most likly not like a scizor in its face unless it has hp fire for the calm mind set you can switch to an azelf on the calm mine and explode or metagross and meteormash to death or you could switch to vaporeon on a calm mind and toxic stall as it survives a thunderbolt from latias with one cm. Blissey walls every single special set for any pokemon. and Unless latias has grass knot tyrranitar can switch in on a surf and kill it with pursuit if it tries to switch out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:35 am
That's quite a few 'ifs', isn't it? The problem is, as Cormini stated, its movepool is so large that an incorrect guess can mean the end of your team. Its variability is part of the reasons why I'm arguing for it to go to Ubers.
Let's take a moment and think. Scipio, list every single probable Latias set out there, and I bet you'll get at least a dozen if you put even an ounce of effort into it. That's at least a dozen mainstream sets that you have to choose from in attempting to counter it- leaving you with a roughly 8% window of accuracy if you're attempting to predict it from turn one. Add in the dozens of variations of said sets and more unusual ones that normally aren't seen in mainstream, and you'll be left with infinitesimally small chances of trying to 'figure it out' in one go.
For every moveset, there's a counter- perhaps that's true. But what are the chances that you'll get it right, every single time?
Regarding Azelf, Exploding on turn one makes Latias all the more useful, eliminating one of the stronger sweepers in OU just by existing. Thank you for bolstering the Uber argument.
Psycho Shift throws Toxic right back at Vaporeon, and a Thunderbolt will often finish it off after a turn or two of residual damage- Light Screen/Calm Mind sets will wall Ice Beams with ease.
Read my earlier arguments about Blissey as a counter, please.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:39 am
@ Scipio320 - Most of your debate has to do with revenge killing and let's face it, revenge killing isn't necessarily the same as countering in the truest form of the word. On top of that, things don't need to be uncounterable to be deemed Uber. If this was true Ho-Oh would be OU too strictly because of Tyranitar as well. True, it seems like every Latias set will have some reliable counters. Going by the popular Dragon Pulse + HP Fire/Fighting, HP Fire deals with Scizor and other steels, but leaves it weak to Tyranitar and Heatran. While HP Fighting deals with those pokes, it consequentially leaves it exposed to Scizor.
I don't think we can get past this point of the debate. Of course, she might have Surf, but that means she is either forgoing Hidden Power, which leaves it exposed against Steel-types or is forgoing Calm Mind, which limits its sweeping capabilities somewhat. Whatever the case, going into battle against any of these Latias' setups, your taking a chance (and most likely sacrificing a Pokemon) to find out what sort of Latias it is. And that unpredictability is reason enough for us to force it back into Ubers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:12 pm
Cant the same thing be said about salemence or lucario plus latias still technicly gets countered by blissey as latias still switches out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:27 pm
That's not even a comparison. ._.
Lucario is not bulky. Despite his resistances, his defenses are pitiful and he has no defensive moves of his own. His Speed doesn't break 100, and you will never see a Defensive Lucario- all sets are offensive. Latias can run sets that are defensive, offensive, status-inflicting, status-dodging... you name it.
Salamence has a x4 weakness, is slower than Latias, is not nearly as bulky, and a crippling weakness to Stealth Rock. Fat!Mence is the closest thing I can see to a possible Latias set, making the Stealth Rock weakness and stat differences show out even more.
Salamence has no business passing any status unless it's a bulky set, and even then, it's normally only Toxic. Most Salamences have to choose which stat to be bulky in (if you want a comparison to a Latias set), while Latias's high defenses make the EV investment moot- it can switch those EVs to HP, Speed, or Sp. Attack and still come out superior to Salamence.
Long story short, you just compared an elephant to a bright pink bouncy ball, apples to oranges... if you're going to come up with a comparison, make it relevant, please? ._.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:37 pm
Scipio320 Cant the same thing be said about salemence or lucario Not at all friend. The only way I can think of lucario and salamance being unpredictable is varying from offensive assets (Physical Sweeper, Special Sweeper or Mixed). Aside from that, I at least know regardless of what EV spread it has, as long as I can survive the first attack or outspeed it, (which most pokes can for lucario, and fewer than lucario but still a good degree can for salamance) I can 1HKO them with a fighting type or flying type move for Lucario. (which are plentiful.) or an Ice type and Electric type attack for salamance. (which are also plentiful.) Where as coming into a fight against Latias, I have to predict on both sides of the spectrum (aside from physical attacker), including but not limited to, special sweeper, special wall, Staller, Supporter, Ect.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:38 pm
but you never explained to me one all out counter to salemence which you are asking of latias
look all im saying is there isnt an all out counter to every single pokemon in ou and thats mostly the bases behind people wanting latias to be uber again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
