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Sanguina Cruenta
Crew

Eloquent Bloodsucker

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:05 am


Apacelull
I was mostly going on the fact that challenging religion in a serious manner tends to automatically disrespect it. Not challenging religion is just silly. I also do not like religion with a half-hearted passion that tends to come out on the internet razz . Weird how that works eh?


You can challenge religion respectfully, I think. The idea is to be genuine and to honestly attempt to understand the perspective of your interlocutor.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:39 am


TikiRocket
I'd been gonna say... Pretty sure it was Franklin who would go into a meditative state to figure out his most troubling problems with inventions. He'd hold a handful of pennies to keep himself from falling asleep, focus on what he was trying to figure out, and trance out until he got it. biggrin I thought that was a pretty cool tidbit. Generally not the stuff of Atheism, though.


Why not? I don't think he was looking to God for help; meditation is something completely different that doesn't require any religious or superstitious intent.

How is clearing your mind of other thoughts in order to organize and come up with new ones "not the stuff of Atheism"?

As far as treating religion respectfully, name calling happens on both sides, not just ours. Not saying that it's right; that's not acceptable in a serious debate. However, I would say that the religious should stop calling us names and insulting us, too.

alteregoivy


Riiko..Izawa

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:41 am


Apacelull
Nebulance
Riiko..Izawa
Ya know, you get more flies with honey than vinegar.
Most of these quotes can be summed up as

"God isn't real."
or
"Those who believe in God are somehow stupid."

Generally, when posting things like this, you try to show how great your side is, not to tear down and frankly mock the other side of the argument. I'm not dissing atheism, I'm just upset about the way you went about it. Most of these quotes are offensive and insulting. I think respect is key when it comes to belief about God, and I don't think the people on this list displayed any of that. I think it actually furthered the stereotype that atheist are mean and arrogant (I don't believe this to be true, I'm just saying).

All and all, I don't think this was such a "great" list after all. confused


Agreed.


Religion does not deserve any respect.


That's just flat out rude.

I can't even debate that, you're just wrong.

I'm sorry to hear there are people that self-absorbed in the world. Other peoples beliefs deserve as much respect as your own, common decency should tell you that.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:04 am


alteregoivy
TikiRocket
I'd been gonna say... Pretty sure it was Franklin who would go into a meditative state to figure out his most troubling problems with inventions. He'd hold a handful of pennies to keep himself from falling asleep, focus on what he was trying to figure out, and trance out until he got it. biggrin I thought that was a pretty cool tidbit. Generally not the stuff of Atheism, though.


Why not? I don't think he was looking to God for help; meditation is something completely different that doesn't require any religious or superstitious intent.

How is clearing your mind of other thoughts in order to organize and come up with new ones "not the stuff of Atheism"?


He was looking to God, though, is the thing. sweatdrop I'm afraid I don't remember all the specifics, but he was a spiritual man, at the very least, and he'd found that he could go into a state of trance and find answers he ordinarily couldn't in his waking mind state.

In my personal experience, atheists treat anything that looks like a spiritual or religious practice with disdain; meditating to clear one's mind is one thing, but meditative trance seeking answers to difficult questions? Not so much.

TikiRocket


Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:13 am


Apacelull
Nebulance
Riiko..Izawa
Ya know, you get more flies with honey than vinegar.
Most of these quotes can be summed up as

"God isn't real."
or
"Those who believe in God are somehow stupid."

Generally, when posting things like this, you try to show how great your side is, not to tear down and frankly mock the other side of the argument. I'm not dissing atheism, I'm just upset about the way you went about it. Most of these quotes are offensive and insulting. I think respect is key when it comes to belief about God, and I don't think the people on this list displayed any of that. I think it actually furthered the stereotype that atheist are mean and arrogant (I don't believe this to be true, I'm just saying).

All and all, I don't think this was such a "great" list after all. confused


Agreed.


Religion does not deserve any respect.


To have a civil debate/discussion, some degree of respect is required. If you are not willing to show this, what are you doing here? I (and I think most of the people here) am not interested in a shouting match. There's always the main forums to troll if you want that.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:17 am


Nebulance
Apacelull
Nebulance
Riiko..Izawa
Ya know, you get more flies with honey than vinegar.
Most of these quotes can be summed up as

"God isn't real."
or
"Those who believe in God are somehow stupid."

Generally, when posting things like this, you try to show how great your side is, not to tear down and frankly mock the other side of the argument. I'm not dissing atheism, I'm just upset about the way you went about it. Most of these quotes are offensive and insulting. I think respect is key when it comes to belief about God, and I don't think the people on this list displayed any of that. I think it actually furthered the stereotype that atheist are mean and arrogant (I don't believe this to be true, I'm just saying).

All and all, I don't think this was such a "great" list after all. confused


Agreed.


Religion does not deserve any respect.


To have a civil debate/discussion, some degree of respect is required. If you are not willing to show this, what are you doing here? I (and I think most of the people here) am not interested in a shouting match. There's always the main forums to troll if you want that.


Seconded. stare It's a debate forum, not a space to tell everyone else that whatever they believe is wrong.

TikiRocket


Apacelull

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:30 am


Didn't you all hear my explanation? Is it not reasonable?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:37 am


Apacelull
Didn't you all hear my explanation? Is it not reasonable?


Sorry, I missed your explanation. I can't say I'm fully satisfied by it, though. You can discuss/challenge religion respectfully the same way you disagree with a person respectfully.

Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler


Apacelull

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:47 am


Fine, how about we debate why religion does not deserve any respect instead of me saying that it doesn't and then you guys telling me that I'm wrong and telling me that I do not belong here. I will admit that my post was rash and did not have any sort of explanation.

I will give more reasons for why I think religion does not deserve any respect:
1) It gives a reason (albeit a bad one) for homophobics to be homophobic. Gay marriage is and the rights of homosexuals is something that really ticks me off especially living in California with Proposition 8. There seems to be no legitimate reason for homophobia except religious ones.
2) It has no evidence in most, if not all claims. It does not deserve the same level of respect as an established and accepted scientific claim. "Gays choose to be gay" is such an example. So are the creation myths that are slowly entering some schools.
3) 9/11.
4) It gives you false hope. Same idea as the lack of evidence argument.

Here's some ideas as to why religion may deserve respect:
1) They help the poor, feed the hungry etc etc.
2) It gives people a reason to live.
3) The other obvious ones I don't care to list.

Any others? Maybe my cons for religion just outweighs the pros of religion in my mind. As an atheist I believe the world would be better without religion. <-- that probably sounds really arrogant to you religious folk and will probably be very very disrespectful. But can we please argue seriously about this? It will be interesting and you could change my mind. Tell me why the world is better as it is with religion.

The only religion that I seriously respect is Buddhism. It has done no harm to me and has not managed to upset me in any manner. There's probably others out there, but I do not know them.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:50 am


Nebulance
Apacelull
Didn't you all hear my explanation? Is it not reasonable?


Sorry, I missed your explanation. I can't say I'm fully satisfied by it, though. You can discuss/challenge religion respectfully the same way you disagree with a person respectfully.


It seems though that if you discuss religion or question the existence of a god (the fundamental question) then it seems to automatically become disrespectful. I don't see a way to argue religion without being in your face about it. How would one discuss it respectfully? Maybe I've just been talking to the wrong people about religion. Maybe I can have a respectful discussion about religion.

Apacelull


Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:40 am


Apacelull
Nebulance
Apacelull
Didn't you all hear my explanation? Is it not reasonable?


Sorry, I missed your explanation. I can't say I'm fully satisfied by it, though. You can discuss/challenge religion respectfully the same way you disagree with a person respectfully.


It seems though that if you discuss religion or question the existence of a god (the fundamental question) then it seems to automatically become disrespectful. I don't see a way to argue religion without being in your face about it. How would one discuss it respectfully? Maybe I've just been talking to the wrong people about religion. Maybe I can have a respectful discussion about religion.


I think you can, too. Here's how I see it:

-Discussing religion respectfully: rationally and civilly questioning the precepts/teachings, reasoning, or any other aspects of a religion. Acknowledging when someone has a good point or shows you wrong on a point.

-Discussing religion disrespectfully: calling names, making unfounded accusations, derogatively stereotyping all members of a religion based on the actions of a few of them, acting like those who disagree with your perspective are stupid or ignorant, claiming that the religion you are discussing is inherently evil in some way, goading someone on by mocking beliefs that they place great value on, etc.

Respect is key to a rational discussion.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:55 am


Nebulance
Apacelull
Nebulance
Apacelull
Didn't you all hear my explanation? Is it not reasonable?


Sorry, I missed your explanation. I can't say I'm fully satisfied by it, though. You can discuss/challenge religion respectfully the same way you disagree with a person respectfully.


It seems though that if you discuss religion or question the existence of a god (the fundamental question) then it seems to automatically become disrespectful. I don't see a way to argue religion without being in your face about it. How would one discuss it respectfully? Maybe I've just been talking to the wrong people about religion. Maybe I can have a respectful discussion about religion.


I think you can, too. Here's how I see it:

-Discussing religion respectfully: rationally and civilly questioning the precepts/teachings, reasoning, or any other aspects of a religion. Acknowledging when someone has a good point or shows you wrong on a point.

-Discussing religion disrespectfully: calling names, making unfounded accusations, derogatively stereotyping all members of a religion based on the actions of a few of them, acting like those who disagree with your perspective are stupid or ignorant, claiming that the religion you are discussing is inherently evil in some way, goading someone on by mocking beliefs that they place great value on, etc.

Respect is key to a rational discussion.


I agree. Except discussion religion respectfully can become hostile even if it is not direct name calling. Some of the quotes on the list can be disrespectful (calling religious people stupid), but some are good points and should be taken seriously.

Apacelull


Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:59 am


Apacelull
Nebulance
Apacelull
Nebulance
Apacelull
Didn't you all hear my explanation? Is it not reasonable?


Sorry, I missed your explanation. I can't say I'm fully satisfied by it, though. You can discuss/challenge religion respectfully the same way you disagree with a person respectfully.


It seems though that if you discuss religion or question the existence of a god (the fundamental question) then it seems to automatically become disrespectful. I don't see a way to argue religion without being in your face about it. How would one discuss it respectfully? Maybe I've just been talking to the wrong people about religion. Maybe I can have a respectful discussion about religion.


I think you can, too. Here's how I see it:

-Discussing religion respectfully: rationally and civilly questioning the precepts/teachings, reasoning, or any other aspects of a religion. Acknowledging when someone has a good point or shows you wrong on a point.

-Discussing religion disrespectfully: calling names, making unfounded accusations, derogatively stereotyping all members of a religion based on the actions of a few of them, acting like those who disagree with your perspective are stupid or ignorant, claiming that the religion you are discussing is inherently evil in some way, goading someone on by mocking beliefs that they place great value on, etc.

Respect is key to a rational discussion.


I agree. Except discussion religion respectfully can become hostile even if it is not direct name calling. Some of the quotes on the list can be disrespectful (calling religious people stupid), but some are good points and should be taken seriously.


If someone is stupid, you don't call them that. You simply demonstrate how they're stupid by pointing out the giant holes/contradictions in what they're saying.

EDIT: I like your sig, btw; I think it applies to loving God as well as to loving another person.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:04 pm


Wait, maybe I misunderstood; which points are good and should be taken seriously? The only I can see that might fit that criteria is calling someone's religion inherently evil... and that would just be extremely inaccurate for almost all modern religions.

Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler


Semiremis
Captain

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:03 pm


Apacelull
Fine, how about we debate why religion does not deserve any respect instead of me saying that it doesn't and then you guys telling me that I'm wrong and telling me that I do not belong here. I will admit that my post was rash and did not have any sort of explanation.

I will give more reasons for why I think religion does not deserve any respect:
1) It gives a reason (albeit a bad one) for homophobics to be homophobic. Gay marriage is and the rights of homosexuals is something that really ticks me off especially living in California with Proposition 8. There seems to be no legitimate reason for homophobia except religious ones.
2) It has no evidence in most, if not all claims. It does not deserve the same level of respect as an established and accepted scientific claim. "Gays choose to be gay" is such an example. So are the creation myths that are slowly entering some schools.
3) 9/11.
4) It gives you false hope. Same idea as the lack of evidence argument.

Here's some ideas as to why religion may deserve respect:
1) They help the poor, feed the hungry etc etc.
2) It gives people a reason to live.
3) The other obvious ones I don't care to list.

Any others? Maybe my cons for religion just outweighs the pros of religion in my mind. As an atheist I believe the world would be better without religion. <-- that probably sounds really arrogant to you religious folk and will probably be very very disrespectful. But can we please argue seriously about this? It will be interesting and you could change my mind. Tell me why the world is better as it is with religion.

The only religion that I seriously respect is Buddhism. It has done no harm to me and has not managed to upset me in any manner. There's probably others out there, but I do not know them.


1.) Not all religious folk are obsessed with sexuality, and people can find more than one mode of support for their hatred and fear. An absence of religion doesn't mean that their would be an absence of homophobia or even a smaller amount of it present in humanity.

2.)Religion and science are not the same thing and so cannot be expected to follow the same rules of engagement.

3.)Radicals distort religious tenets and use that distortion to manipulate others into doing their bidding. People unfortunately seem fairly good at finding ways to control a population in doing it's bidding, just look at what we saw happening when communism was more wide spread, children ratting out their parents for not carrying that little red book. People getting beaten and killed and what about the Rwandan Genocide, the ethnicity of the Hutu's and Tutsi's were the same but as political groups they were turned against each other through negative propaganda and neighbors turned on the people they once cared about and killed them.

4.)What false hope?
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Religious Debate

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