Steampunk or Victorian Goth? | Page 2 | Central Section | Guild Forums

ZombieGinsberg

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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:42 pm

Agent_Dax

Can't say I'm familiar with victorian goth

but I suppose it could fit both, as steampunk often has victorian elements.
(and i would assume it fits with goth... as it has it in the name?? haha)

Victorian goth is the only actuall kind of "goth"

Most the s**t that goth kids do now is industrial...which isn't goth

Steampunk is more goth than modern day goth kids tbqh

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:52 pm

Sidnay

Steampunk > any subgenre which tries hard to be it

QFT'd.

Behatzlacha-S

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Jazzaram

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Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:54 pm

Sita Harker

So would you say that Gothic Victorian fits both Goth and Steampunk or just one?

Here's some examples of victorian goth that seems pretty Steampunk to me:

Dress 1
Dress 2
Bustle Skirts

Those outfits fit as both, it's more about the person's interests then what cut the dress has.

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:29 pm

xChrisThePanda

Agent_Dax

Can't say I'm familiar with victorian goth

but I suppose it could fit both, as steampunk often has victorian elements.
(and i would assume it fits with goth... as it has it in the name?? haha)

Victorian goth is the only actuall kind of "goth"

Most the s**t that goth kids do now is industrial...which isn't goth

Steampunk is more goth than modern day goth kids tbqh

So that means we've commandeered their style, in our air pirate-y goodness. Or rather they kind of handed it over by not knowing their own subculture. Let's just say we comandeered it, it sounds cooler.

Thani10

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KaelTiernan

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Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:20 pm

Alas, why do you not ask a Neovictorian like myself? Let me clarify a few subjects.

First of all let me explain the base of all Victorian themed fashion. The term "Victorian Fashion" covers all sorts of clothing that have their bases in Victorianism. Two forms of Victorianism are as follows:

A Neovictorian is a person who attempts to mirror the sensibilities and formalities of Victorian times, especially those of the aristocracy.

Steampunk culture is a version of Victorianism that includes modern technology with that of the Victorian era. A Steampunk may, like a Neovictorian, instill Victorian sensibilities, but rarely will they be as high and proper as the aristocrats.

Victorian fashion influences many modern day clothing styles, but the truest forms are listed below. This will also answer your question about Steampunk and Victorian Gothic.

Steampunk fashion combines Victorian clothing with almost robotic parts and futuristic suits. Brass is a predominant factors, reckoning back to the Second Industrial Revolution.
An example: http://media3.playstadium.dk/img/mgh/d3/billeder/cosplay/12.jpg

Aristocratic/ Lolita fashion, designed for males and females respectively, is most true to the real Victorian fashion. It originated in Japan and is most suiting to those who dress Neovictorian.

Classic Lolita is the most historically accurate and mature version of Lolita/ Aristocrat fashion, and focuses on the Baroque, Rocaille, and Regency styles. This form tends not to be as eccentric as some of the below fashions, but is often more intricate. It tends to use very neutral colors. (A special thank you to Catsuits for a few corrections.) http://atashi.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/img_3276s.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Classicloli.JPG

Gothic Lolita (and this should answer your questions) is similar to Classic Lolita save for the darker colors and not-so-mature style. It is very much unlike any other form of Gothic fashion from the west. The look is similar to what one would expect in a vampire movie like Dracula. Mana, a famous Japanese musician (and one of my favorites) is responsible for popularizing the style along with many other Visual Kei artists. http://home.teleport.com/~monica/livejournal/Gothic_and_lolita_bible1.jpg (that would be Mana, who is in fact a straight male)

Sweet Lolita is a more childlike style of Lolita and is heavily influenced by Rococo styles. References to Alice in Wonderland, fruits, sweets, and fairy-tales are popular themes throughout. Bright colors, bows, lace and ribbons are also a necessity. http://img3.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/08232008/0/2/f/0/02f05a4f77e4f0_full.jpg

Punk Lolita is exactly what the name says. It uses boots, safety pins, plaids, and chains in addition to Victorian dress. http://s.bebo.com/app-image/7927000463/5411656627/PROFILE/i.quizzaz.com/img/q/u/08/04/12/QUIZ-punk.jpg

The following are less common versions of Lolita:

Wa Lolita combines traditional Japanese clothing with Victorian dress.
http://nd01.blog.cz/936/475/4290cdae58_46915595_o2.jpg

Qi Lolita is the Chinese version of Wa Lolita.
http://www.nautiljon.com/images/galerie/mode/qi_lolita/qi_lolita_1.jpg

Oji, or Boystyle, is the style a young Victorian boy would wear.
http://sp8.fotolog.com/photo/8/55/8/yprh/1229955183013_f.jpg

Hime Lolita is akin to the clothing of European princesses.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/hime lolita/sunbeammoonpie/Lolita/hime2df.jpg

Guro Lolita is the most Gothic version of the fashion. Blood, bandages, and the grotesque dominate this style.
http://sgcafe.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117298&stc=1&d=1205501533

Sailor Lolita is a combination of Japanese schoolgirl attire and Victorian dress. http://s.bebo.com/app-image/7931872762/5411656627/PROFILE/i.quizzaz.com/img/q/u/08/04/12/QUIZ-sailor.jpg

I hope this answers any future questions about the styles. Basically, a Neovictorian is to a Catholic as a Steampunk is to a Protestant; they are extremely similar but differ in minor areas. However they are still brothers.

P.S. Victorian Gothic is a kind of Literature with themes of monsters, madness, blood, and unhappy endings. Dracula, The Vampyre, Sweeny Todd, and The Count of Monte Cristo (best book ever written) are examples of this genre. It quite nearly founded what Americans know today as the Gothic subculture. How fun!

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:27 am

xChrisThePanda

Agent_Dax

Can't say I'm familiar with victorian goth

but I suppose it could fit both, as steampunk often has victorian elements.
(and i would assume it fits with goth... as it has it in the name?? haha)

Victorian goth is the only actuall kind of "goth"

Most the s**t that goth kids do now is industrial...which isn't goth

Steampunk is more goth than modern day goth kids tbqh

Actually the style in the original goth scene was more inspired by punk [try searching for deathrock images and you'll see.] All the victorian elegant inspiration got there many years later [I'm not sure when or how exactly.]
I still find the victorian inspired styles very beautiful and it is something I wish for. [I like steampunk but I still have closer to goth, in my preferred fashion and music.]

Ametrin

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ZombieGinsberg

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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:52 pm

Luz Melian

xChrisThePanda

Agent_Dax

Can't say I'm familiar with victorian goth

but I suppose it could fit both, as steampunk often has victorian elements.
(and i would assume it fits with goth... as it has it in the name?? haha)

Victorian goth is the only actuall kind of "goth"

Most the s**t that goth kids do now is industrial...which isn't goth

Steampunk is more goth than modern day goth kids tbqh

Actually the style in the original goth scene was more inspired by punk [try searching for deathrock images and you'll see.] All the victorian elegant inspiration got there many years later [I'm not sure when or how exactly.]
I still find the victorian inspired styles very beautiful and it is something I wish for. [I like steampunk but I still have closer to goth, in my preferred fashion and music.]

Gothrock came before deathrock

Deathrock did take after punk with elements from goth-rock and post-punk but original goth was victorian styled. I am a deathrocker of sorts so I know everyone who knows anything about goth says that was the begining of goth but it wasn't, actuall gothrock was. But gothrock mixed with punk and birthed deathrock. SOPOR Aeternus and the ensemble of shadows, even though they started in 89 are still a good example of goth pre-deathrock.

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:34 am

xChrisThePanda

Luz Melian

xChrisThePanda

Agent_Dax

Can't say I'm familiar with victorian goth

but I suppose it could fit both, as steampunk often has victorian elements.
(and i would assume it fits with goth... as it has it in the name?? haha)

Victorian goth is the only actuall kind of "goth"

Most the s**t that goth kids do now is industrial...which isn't goth

Steampunk is more goth than modern day goth kids tbqh

Actually the style in the original goth scene was more inspired by punk [try searching for deathrock images and you'll see.] All the victorian elegant inspiration got there many years later [I'm not sure when or how exactly.]
I still find the victorian inspired styles very beautiful and it is something I wish for. [I like steampunk but I still have closer to goth, in my preferred fashion and music.]

Gothrock came before deathrock

Deathrock did take after punk with elements from goth-rock and post-punk but original goth was victorian styled. I am a deathrocker of sorts so I know everyone who knows anything about goth says that was the begining of goth but it wasn't, actuall gothrock was. But gothrock mixed with punk and birthed deathrock. SOPOR Aeternus and the ensemble of shadows, even though they started in 89 are still a good example of goth pre-deathrock.

Ok this is still a bit unclear to me. sweatdrop A lot of my favourite bands are goth rock and related, but I still have no idea how it is recognized musically what is gothrock and what is deathrock... I don't recognize much difference @_@ Or maybe I haven't heard the right bands.
Early goth rock developped from post punk... then deathrock developped with the influence of both goth rock and punk? But goth rock has some punkish influence in it and particularly the rhythm too, so I still can't tell how these categories were determined :/

Ametrin

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Chadwick Malcolm

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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:21 pm

Wow...That KaelTiernan guy should have his own guide somewhere.

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:48 pm

Luz Melian

xChrisThePanda

Luz Melian

xChrisThePanda

Agent_Dax

Can't say I'm familiar with victorian goth

but I suppose it could fit both, as steampunk often has victorian elements.
(and i would assume it fits with goth... as it has it in the name?? haha)

Victorian goth is the only actuall kind of "goth"

Most the s**t that goth kids do now is industrial...which isn't goth

Steampunk is more goth than modern day goth kids tbqh

Actually the style in the original goth scene was more inspired by punk [try searching for deathrock images and you'll see.] All the victorian elegant inspiration got there many years later [I'm not sure when or how exactly.]
I still find the victorian inspired styles very beautiful and it is something I wish for. [I like steampunk but I still have closer to goth, in my preferred fashion and music.]

Gothrock came before deathrock

Deathrock did take after punk with elements from goth-rock and post-punk but original goth was victorian styled. I am a deathrocker of sorts so I know everyone who knows anything about goth says that was the begining of goth but it wasn't, actuall gothrock was. But gothrock mixed with punk and birthed deathrock. SOPOR Aeternus and the ensemble of shadows, even though they started in 89 are still a good example of goth pre-deathrock.

Ok this is still a bit unclear to me. sweatdrop A lot of my favourite bands are goth rock and related, but I still have no idea how it is recognized musically what is gothrock and what is deathrock... I don't recognize much difference @_@ Or maybe I haven't heard the right bands.
Early goth rock developped from post punk... then deathrock developped with the influence of both goth rock and punk? But goth rock has some punkish influence in it and particularly the rhythm too, so I still can't tell how these categories were determined :/

Well there were differing opinions when it started in the 70's about what gothrock was but widely it was held as post-punk which later became gothrock. Bands like Joy Division, Boys next Door, Jesus And Mary Chain, etc.. When deathrock came onto the scene it had been a mix of gothrock/post-punk and British and American punk which came from glam. So deathrock was bands like Bauhaus, Alien Sex Feind, Sex Gang Children, Christian Death, The Birthday Party, etc.. Deathrock still had some of the cold aesthetic of postpunk along the low-fi isolated sound but had now aquired a vollatile (and slightly insane) style from punk and glamrock...Post-punk was failrly popular in the 80's and gave birth to indie so many fans and bands associated with it dressed much like todays indie kids but there were also the true gothrock followers who did the all out victorian look but listened to some post-punk. For a good example of what gothrock style is looks at the band SOPOR Aeternus and the Ensemble of Shadows.

ZombieGinsberg

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KaelTiernan

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Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:01 am

I do have my own thread specifically for what I have just explained located in the fashion district.

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:56 pm

Chadwick Malcolm

Wow...That KaelTiernan guy should have his own guide somewhere.

He kind of types like a pretentious jackass if you ask me :/

Also lolilta has nothing to do with anything gothic fashion related unless you talk about the last ten years when new gothic fashion has barely had anything to do with gothic fashion, so he's off base as well.

This makes me sad

ZombieGinsberg

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ZombieGinsberg

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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:20 pm

This is Anna Varney Cantodea

She is the only person in the band SOPOR Aeternus

A gleaming examle of true victorian gothic fasion

It is a comprhensive fashion style combing dark funereal overtones with common Avant Garde themes.

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

These are a few definitions of the word "lolita"

Lolita, n.
A sexually precocious young girl.

Lolita, adj.
In the marketing of legal pornography, lolita is used to refer to a neotenic female, frequently one who has only recently reached the age of consent, or appears to be younger than the age of consent. Usually overlaps with 'barely legal'.

The Lolita fashion style took off when it became fashionable for teenaged to slightly older girls to wear "doll-like" clothing which took off in the pseudo gothic community of the late, late, late, 80's and early 90's. Japan revived it as it was dying and has once again taken off

There you go.
Harajuku girls in doll dresses are not in any way truly related to gothic fashion.

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:30 pm

Ah, I thought I had explained that Lolita was a form of Neovictorian fashion. I'm sorry if there were any inaccuracies in that wall of words. I think that woman is wearing Gothic fashion heavily inspired by Victorian clothing, though.

KaelTiernan

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ZombieGinsberg

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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:42 pm

Lol I flip out when it comes to the lolita being goth issue and I thought that that was what you were saying XD

I am very adimate about it

And yes Varney's style is very traditonal victorian gothic so it leans heavily towards the victorian thing as does her music. Sadly she is only a studio performer because due to certain issues she refuses to go on stage. she says that watching her do a concert would be like seeing someone committing suicide on stage. But her music is done completely by herself using traditonal instrument used in the enlightenment-victorian periods. Things like Harpsichords. Very cool sound

and again sorry I flipped out it was 4 AM

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