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 Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:28 pm
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Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:37 pm
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diabolical_ferret658 That doesn't make sense to m, but okay....Um, what kinda message are you getting from theosis?
Theosis is, according to Orthodox Wiki:
Quote: Theosis ("deification," "divinization") is the process of a worshiper becoming free of hamártía ("missing the mark"), being united with God, beginning in this life and later consummated in bodily resurrection. For Orthodox Christians, Théōsis (see 2 Pet. 1:4) is salvation. Théōsis assumes that humans from the beginning are made to share in the Life or Nature of the all-Holy Trinity. Therefore, an infant or an adult worshiper is saved from the state of unholiness (hamartía — which is not to be confused with hamártēma “sin”) for participation in the Life (zōé, not simply bíos) of the Trinity — which is everlasting. This is not to be confused with the heretical (apothéōsis) - "Deification in God’s Essence", which is imparticipable.
Theosis itself is simply becoming united to God. How one achieves this is in various ways, which one assertion is through the ascetic life.
Asceticism according to Orthodox Wiki:
Quote: Asceticism is the practice of self-denial (i.e., control of one's passions and base impulses) for the sake of the Kingdom. The practice of asceticism - called ascesis - is most often associated exclusively with monasticism, although all the faithful are exhorted to practice lesser forms of ascesis through the Church's regimen of prayer, fasting, and repentance. The word "ascetic" comes from the Greek root ἀσκητικός, which is turn is from the verb ἀσκέω, meaning "I train." The Apostle Paul likens the Christian life of prayer and repentance to training for various sporting events (1 Cor. 9:24-27; 2 Tim. 4:7). As such, the methods of ascesis should not be used as ends to themselves, but as means to the end of salvation, the "prize" which the Apostle mentions in First Corinthians. Some forms of ascesis take a much more austere - even seemingly unhealthy - appearance than others, for instance Stylitism, in which the ascetic stands on a high pillar or tree for a prolonged period of time.
Ascetics eventually became what we consider Monasticism in the West, and even then it was a mild form of the Ascetics of the Desert, or the Desert Fthers as they were known as. One Saint who liven my spirit daily when I ponder his life was St. Simeon Stylites. |
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:06 am
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:03 pm
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Crimson, I talked our conversatoin over with my pastor and a man who knows the Bible better than anyone I know, who's name is Jeff. (jeff, by the way is an extremely credible source, considerig he probably knows that Greek word for cookie.)
Jeff told me that the verse from Revelatoin is applied only to the verse in Revelation itself, not the complete Bible. The reason for this being is that when Revelation was written, the Bible was not assembled as we know it now. It was a book entirely on its own, like a random novel.
Also, Jeff pointed out a couple verses in John 10. Long story short, Jesus said that we, as the flock will know God's voice. We will follow Him when He calls us and we will flee from a stranger's voice because we won't recognize it. If you read past verse 6, into verse 14, Jesus says the flock will know Him as the good sheperd that has sheep that hear and know His voice.
Read carefully, because there is no ominous mention of the end times, so don't think that's wwhat Jesus was speaking of. Interesting thing, in that chapter, right after all the sheep and sheperd talk, it says the people were stil divided. Sound familiar?
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:08 pm
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No place like 127 0 0 1 diabolical_ferret658 I've been told that numerous times, and I hate hearing that. I know what I have to be cautious with and those things have nothing to do with what I have experienced in my walk with God. He's told me things that he hasn't told anyone else I know. And you're going to instantly think that your suspicions are confirmed, but I know the voice of God. I'm saying what I'm experiencing. I know that I know that I know. God has given me scripture and told me that He loved me in the most heart wrenching way. I'm sorry, but I get really defensive when someone tells me to be cautious because I take it as, "Your faith is incorrect and you have no idea what you are doing or feeling." people are just worried thats why they are telling you the same thing over and over. I have experienced some fakes and it wasnt pretty. I was in extreme danger and i hope i never go through that ever again. i even wear now a pendant that casts away demons from me. (i dont know what its called but theres 4 parts to it. one of them with St michael, other is mary, another with some random casting symbol and then a cross... ) but good for you....i hope i would get to have a really strong relationship with God like you have with him. how did you build this relationship?
It was a spontaneous thing...One day I went to church, and I was listening because I knew in the back of my mind that I needed something in this life to give me purpose because I was so close to ending it. It took me about two or three months before I actually got saved, and then I could hear Him and feel Him with me. He would speak to me in the classroom...We would laugh and joke...Then He'd say, "Okay, Drea. You got to get to work now. We can finish later."
God wants us to seek a personal relatoinship with Him, and I think that's as personal and as close I have ever been to anybody. I've been slipping away, and I've been trying to get back to that intimacy with Him, but it's hard...I still believe and I still try my hardest to do and ssay the right things. I don't want to be seen as "one of those christians" - the hypocrites. |
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:30 pm
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Imitation Stradivarius Crimson, I talked our conversatoin over with my pastor and a man who knows the Bible better than anyone I know, who's name is Jeff. (jeff, by the way is an extremely credible source, considerig he probably knows that Greek word for cookie.)
I'm glad you are using the Bible here to support your arguments, because really that's all it comes down to. The Truth is what the Bible teaches, so I am very happy when a discussion is focused on that. =)
Imitation Stradivarius Jeff told me that the verse from Revelatoin is applied only to the verse in Revelation itself, not the complete Bible. The reason for this being is that when Revelation was written, the Bible was not assembled as we know it now. It was a book entirely on its own, like a random novel.
This is only partially true. For one, the Bible was entirely written by the time John was writing the book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation was, chronologically, the last book to be written of those in the Bible. The rest of the New Testament had been entirely written, and had been copied and distributed around the churches that had been established in the Mediterranean world. It is true that they weren't necessarily all bound together into one book, but it is also true that Revelation was the final, concluding message from God to be given to the churches: and thus the end passage of Revelation serves not only as a conclusion to that one book, but a conclusion to God-inspired scripture, that is, what we refer to today as the Bible.
Revelation certainly wasn't a stand-alone, random book. It stands on the foundation of the rest of the Bible. We couldn't begin to understand anything in Revelation without being familiar with the rest of the Bible. It is rich with symbolism and abstractions which can only be understood in light of all the Scripture that came before it. It frequently references events written in both the Old and New Testaments. The way it is written, it assumes and demands that it's reader is familiar with the everything else in Scripture in order to begin to understand it.
John in Revelation 22:18-21 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
^ Thus ends the Bible.
It is true that John, in that verse, is only specifically referring to the book of Revelation; but that doesn't mean what he says doesn't apply to the entire Bible. There are many cases in Biblical interpretation when a verse refers to something specific, but it's application extends to cover something much larger.
Here's an example. "Do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit." - Ephesians 5:18. The Bible teaches that it is wrong to get drunk with wine. Does this mean it's ok to get drunk with beer? The Bible doesn't specifically mention beer, nor does it ever use the general term "alcohol" which would cover all such drinks. It uses a specific kind of drink, wine, and yet the principle is applied to all alcoholic drinks, and thus it applies to beer. I'm sure we agree that the Bible teaches it's not okay to get drunk off beer, or any alcoholic drink. The verse only refers to something specific, but it's principle is applied to every alcoholic drink. It's the same thing with Revelation 22:18-19. It's true that the verse specifically refers to that book, but does indeed apply to the every book, the entire Bible.
I could provide numerous more examples, but I'll provide one more that not only illustrates that same principle of interpretation, but it also relates to the same subject: the Word of God itself. 2nd Timothy 3:16 is a verse very commonly used to show that the Bible is inspired by God. It says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." So, it clearly says "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God," thus we know that all the Bible is the Word of God. Wouldn't you agree?
But there's a problem here - at the time Paul was writing this, the New Testament had not yet been completely written. Unlike Revelation, 2nd Timothy was not the last book to be written. So how could this verse possibly really be referring to "all Scripture?" To complicate matters even more, in the verse right before this one, 2nd Timothy 3:15, Paul mentions that Timothy has known these Scriptures "from childhood." Timothy's childhood was before any of the books in the New Testament were written. So, it's clear Paul is referring only to the Old Testament. Does this mean that only the Old Testament is inspired by God? No, this verse is almost universally accepted as applying to the entire Bible. It specifically refers to the Old Testament, but it applies to the entire Bible. The same is true for Revelation 22:18-19. We should not add or take away any words from Revelation. And we should also not add or take away any words from the Bible.
Imitation Stradivarius Also, Jeff pointed out a couple verses in John 10. Long story short, Jesus said that we, as the flock will know God's voice. We will follow Him when He calls us and we will flee from a stranger's voice because we won't recognize it. If you read past verse 6, into verse 14, Jesus says the flock will know Him as the good sheperd that has sheep that hear and know His voice.
This is an appropriate verse to consider in this discussion. I want to quote the whole passage here for anyone who isn't familiar with it or doesn't have it handy.
John in 10:1-18 of his Gospel “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
This is an extremely significant passage of the Bible, so it's important to know what Jesus is talking about. It may seem to relate to the issue of hearing God's voice audibly, but it in fact does not. For one thing, Jesus is speaking metaphorically. We are not literally sheep, and he is not literally a shepherd. To follow Christ, we do not literally walk through a gate or door. The wolves and thieves mentioned are also metaphorical. So when Jesus says that the sheep will follow their shepherd's voice because they recognize it, he is clearly speaking metaphorically and is not saying that we will literally hear God's voice audibly calling us to follow him. No more so than he is saying we are literally four-legged livestock covered with wool.
There are other reasons that show this can't be referring to literally hearing God's voice. Jesus is describing his relationship with his people at the most fundamental level. All of his people, all true believers, follow him as sheep follow their shepherd. Every single Christian is a part of his flock. This passage in John 10 says that his sheep follow him when they hear his voice - which would mean that in order to be a Christian, someone must have heard God's calling. But 99.999% of Christians do not claim to have ever audibly heard God's voice. This leaves us with only two possibilities: Either all of these people (including myself) are not truly Christians and are not truly following Jesus, or else the calling Jesus refers to is not a literal audible voice.
So what is the voice that Jesus is referring to? Hearing God's word, the message of the Gospel, is what calls us to follow Christ. "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Romans 10. That word of Christ is not literally a voice speaking to us - it is his word in the Bible, particularly the Gospel message which brings us salvation, which Paul calls "the word of Christ." If we are of God's flock, we will respond to hearing the Gospel by following Christ, and that is what he is referring to in John 10.
Imitation Stradivarius Read carefully, because there is no ominous mention of the end times, so don't think that's wwhat Jesus was speaking of. Interesting thing, in that chapter, right after all the sheep and sheperd talk, it says the people were stil divided. Sound familiar?
As you can see from my last few paragraphs, I agree that Jesus is not referring to his followers being called at the end times in this passage. He's referring to how all Christians follow him during their lives. He was even referring to the people around him right then and there - some of them believed and were following him with faith; others were following for other reasons and didn't have faith in the gospel he taught, and they doubted. That is the division being referred to in John 10:19. There are disagreements between Christians about various things, but it's not quite like the division that's mentioned there, which is a division between those who had faith in Christ and those who doubted. All Christians have faith in Christ, so there's no reason anything should divide us in that way, even if there are disagreements. =)
Sorry that it's such a long post, but you brought up significant issues that demanded a thorough response. XP
Please notice that I brought up several other strong points in my previous post, which still stand. Hebrews 1:1 is a significant verse here and it still applies, as I mentioned in that post.
I also just want to point something out. You said that you heard God's voice saying to you, among other things, "Okay, Drea. You got to get to work now. We can finish later." Let's assume this is truly a direct quote from God. If this is really the voice of God speaking to you, then you should be writing down everything he says! It is a divine, infallible message, and you should be copying it and distributing it among every Christian you possibly can. It should be included in the Bible, because it is no less the Word of God than anything else in the Bible. You should be making as strong an effort as you possibly can to convince everyone to include it in their Bible. That's what people in the Bible did when God audibly spoke to them.
I'm not advising you to do that; you can probably figure out that I strongly advise against it. I just want to point out that that's what should be done when God speaks. I don't believe God will speak to humans this way again, because of all the points brought up previously. |
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:58 pm
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:25 pm
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:35 am
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:00 pm
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:45 am
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Crimson Raccoon Vasilius Konstantinos Crimson Raccoon, It seems you may be mixing up Personal Illumination with Prophetic Revelation. A gentle word from God is different than a Prophetic Vision for the world. if this were true than everything Jesus Spoke to the Disciples should have been documented, since by your definition if its from the Lord it should be recorded. I am just nitpicking, but this would be true as we should have documented the words Jesus spoke to the Demoniac who was calmly sitting at His feet. But since it was not recorded could we assume its just Illuminated words meant only for he who was once possessed? Not all things from God need tio be documented. I see the point you're making about Jesus' words, but Jesus was a physical human who had to live his whole life on earth, and that does rather change things; it's not the same as the voice of God speaking to you from Heaven. When he was on earth, Jesus was fulfilling a distinct and unique role. I'm not sure what you're referring to as "personal illumination." Can you provide a Biblical basis for it? The only use of the term "illumination" I'm familiar with is for the Holy Spirit guiding us to understand meaning in Scripture. It's personal in the sense that the Spirit is guiding us personally; and there is a strong Biblical basis that the Spirit does work within us this way. But in that usage of the term, it has nothing to do with new audible messages from God, so I'm not sure how exactly you're using the term and what support from the Bible it has.
Not to start a Theological Argument but I am not one who abides by Scripture Alone. I also believe that the Church itself was the reason why Jesus came to Earth, as 100% God and 100% man while here on Earth, not taking away His divinity. He established His Church through which the Holy Spirit may guide us along the way til His return. |
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Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:36 pm
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Vasilius Konstantinos Crimson Raccoon Vasilius Konstantinos Crimson Raccoon, It seems you may be mixing up Personal Illumination with Prophetic Revelation. A gentle word from God is different than a Prophetic Vision for the world. if this were true than everything Jesus Spoke to the Disciples should have been documented, since by your definition if its from the Lord it should be recorded. I am just nitpicking, but this would be true as we should have documented the words Jesus spoke to the Demoniac who was calmly sitting at His feet. But since it was not recorded could we assume its just Illuminated words meant only for he who was once possessed? Not all things from God need tio be documented. I see the point you're making about Jesus' words, but Jesus was a physical human who had to live his whole life on earth, and that does rather change things; it's not the same as the voice of God speaking to you from Heaven. When he was on earth, Jesus was fulfilling a distinct and unique role. I'm not sure what you're referring to as "personal illumination." Can you provide a Biblical basis for it? The only use of the term "illumination" I'm familiar with is for the Holy Spirit guiding us to understand meaning in Scripture. It's personal in the sense that the Spirit is guiding us personally; and there is a strong Biblical basis that the Spirit does work within us this way. But in that usage of the term, it has nothing to do with new audible messages from God, so I'm not sure how exactly you're using the term and what support from the Bible it has. Not to start a Theological Argument but I am not one who abides by Scripture Alone. I also believe that the Church itself was the reason why Jesus came to Earth, as 100% God and 100% man while here on Earth, not taking away His divinity. He established His Church through which the Holy Spirit may guide us along the way til His return.
Amen! |
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:47 pm
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Imitation Stradivarius Crimson: I'm going to agree to disagree on this one. Your articulation coupled with my inartuclation will end up with me calling you a poopstick because I can't say what I want to say in the way I want to say it. sweatdrop May I suggest that we pick this up in the PMs when I have more scripture and more accurate words? Because this is way fun. mrgreen
Yeah, it is fun. Sure, you can PM me any time. I love having discussions. It's good to look into getting scripture on it. Agreeing to disagree has it's place, but we still need to be able to support our beliefs with scripture. It's good to take some time on it.
Imitation Stradivarius Also, when I mentioned John 10, I didn't mean an audible voice, because God has never spoken to me audibly except in dreams.
If you didn't mean hearing a voice, I'm a little confused about what you meant, because my response was based around the idea of God speaking to someone, telling them something in a voice. In any case though, I hope my explanation of John 10 was adequate to show that the voice Jesus was referring to is metaphorical, and it's the gospel message he preached that is the "voice" his chosen ones will recognize and follow. Interpreting the voice referred to in John 10 as anything else, whether a physically audible voice or a mentally heard voice, is taking the passage out of context, since Jesus is referring to something that all Christians experience: their response of following Christ when they hear the gospel, the Word. Interpreting the voice as anything else twists the meaning of the passage, and in a way undermines it's force as a fundamental explanation of how the gospel works.
Imitation Stradivarius What I meant there was kinda expanded upon by Vasilius. We will know God's voice because I believe He speaks to us to help keep us accountable in our actions and also to keep us upright.
It's very true that God does keep us accountable in our actions. But according to the Bible, the way he does this is by speaking to us through his Word. The verse I mentioned in my last post, 2 Timothy 3:16, explains that the Scripture is entirely all that is needed to challenge and correct our behavior, and completely equip us for proper actions. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." The Holy Spirit often works through the Word, enabling us to understand it's meaning (explained some in Psalm 119:18; 1 Corinthians 2:12-14; and 1 John 2:20, 27). The Spirit also brings passages of the Bible back to our memory at appropriate times, to challenge us, guide us, comfort us, or whatever the need may be. "The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." - John 14:26.
The Bible does not, though, tell us to expect God to speak with us through a voice or in dreams. Rather, Hebrews 1:1 actually highlights the difference between the way God used to communicate to his people, and the way he does now. "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." God did, on occasions through history, communicate to his people through several various ways, such as visions and dreams given to specific prophets; but now he speaks to all through his Son, Jesus Christ, revealed in his Word. John in his Gospel and in Revelation highlights the inseparability between Christ and the Word of God. God speaks to us in his Word, the Scripture.
Imitation Stradivarius If I could run with Vasilius' comment about personal illumination...It makes sense. If everything written and spoken by Jesus and God was supposed to be written down, we would know what His first words were as a child or what He wrote in the sand when he saved that adultress's life.
As I said, Vasilius raised an interesting point; but it was only to a sub-argument, not my main one. And again, I don't think it's much of a stretch to point out that there's a difference between some miraculous communication from heaven, and a physical conversation with Jesus while he was on earth. Jesus was fulfilling a distinct and unique role in his life here. Also, even though not everything by Jesus was recorded, nonetheless a great amount of it was, and it does count as an example of how important it is to spread messages brought by God, because that is indeed what Christ's followers did. They didn't record every detail, but they certainly captured the entirety of his message.
Vasilius Konstantinos Not to start a Theological Argument but I am not one who abides by Scripture Alone. I also believe that the Church itself was the reason why Jesus came to Earth, as 100% God and 100% man while here on Earth, not taking away His divinity. He established His Church through which the Holy Spirit may guide us along the way til His return.
I do believe that Scripture is the foundational, only perfect and infallible authority that God has given to his people. It instructs us to test everything we hear against what it says. I believe the Bible is the perfect and complete Truth. I do agree with everything you say about Christ establishing his church and his Holy Spirit guiding us (because the Bible explains all that), but I don't believe that the church or the Spirit has any guidance or information that takes the place of the Bible or goes beyond it (because they Bible doesn't say they do). The Bible doesn't say the church has any authority that extends beyond the foundation of the Word, nor does it say the church is inspired by God or infallible. When the church starts to believe it has authority to wield Truth beyond what's in the Bible, that's where problems can occur like the corruption of the Roman Catholic church in the Middle Ages. Corruption will always sink in whenever we stray from the path lit by the Word.
This is just me trying to put an honest effort in to address what the Bible has to say about the issue, my brothers. May the God of grace and peace be with you all. |
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