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what i meant about logical falacies is that thinking that one thing will cause for another and another and even a bigger more dramaticall effect is called a the "slippery slope" idea. it's false in the sense, the effects caused by the causes dont nessearly come to be.

just wanted to clear up the deffinition of slipery slope and logical falacy.

now, tying it back to my whole original argument; some ppl think that if you used stems cells from aborted fetuses then ppl would do the abortion JUST FOR stem cells. this effect caused by having legal stem cell research, is a slippery slope. it is not nessearly true that, that would happen. and in all sincerity i doubt ppl would do that. all women who have a head on their shoulders, and research abortion for themselves will know that having an abortion, is just as bad a full blown labor, and on top of that very emotionally/pychologically damaging.

anyway my whole point was that if the goyim are aborting their babies, why cant we as jews (and of course goyim themselves) take advantage of that. make a negative action into a more postive one?

goyim women will abort their babies (regardless of reason) anyway, why throw the fetus away if you can help lives in the process?

does that make sense?

I have to agree with Shaviv on that... If I were sexually active, which will probably happen before I'm married, and were to get pregnant before I'm ready to raise a child, I would most definitely consider abortion. I hope I won't go into a sexual relationship without considering whether I'm ready to deal with that possibility, but if I were to have a pregnancy that I am not ready for, I would seriously consider abortion. I don't know if I would do it, but the possibility exists.

if we do not differentiate ourselves from other nations, goyim as it were, then what is the difference between us? our moral codes, our laws, our heritage, our actions, our covenant is what should be the seperation. to deny any of these things is to deny your identity. i really am sorry if i seem to have a superiority complex, but can you honestly say that i'm wrong?

being that we have seperate, additional, laws that govern us, what is wrong for goyim is not neccessarily wrong for us. when was the last time you saw a jew give a goy mussar over eating pork?

Then what would your view be on emergency contraception such as Plan B, also known as the 'morning after pill'? There are those who view Plan B as being an abortion because it works after fertilization, while others say it's not abortion because abortion implies removing an implanted embryo, and Plan B makes it so the embryo never implants.
My personal opinion is that Plan B is not abortion, and therefore is a viable option, especially when used responsibly. If a couple is responsible about using contraception and something goes wrong (condom breaks, etc) then it's a perfectly reasonable option. Using Plan B as primary contraception is irresponsible, but otherwise it isn't a problem in my view.

Abortion is a method of dealing with the consequences, you know. It's merely one that you and I happen to find distasteful. And you know what? A lot of the time we're not talking about people who were foolish and who messed around. There's something called contraceptive technology - but it's not perfect. Combining barrier technology with hormonal manipulation makes pregnancy very unlikely but not impossible.

If you yourself are a responsible user of any birth control technology, then you will have studied the failure rates.

Also, consider that if the life of the mother is threatened, she is required by halakha to abort the pregnancy and kill the foetus which is, in effect, pursuing her to assault her.

And if you're going to make exceptions for rape, then your whole argument goes right out the window. How can a child of rape be somehow worth less than a child of loveless ********, as you characterize sex out of wedlock?

shaviv, i'm sorry if i offend you, because you sound like i do.

i don't think this argument is going to go anywhere, because it seems to me that you will not treat me as an equal, and you seem to think that i see myself as superior. or maybe i'm just imagining it. in any case, it is impossible to win an argument with a fool, even if all are fools. if you think that i'm giving up, thats fine. if it makes you happy, then i'm happy. i just can't argue with you on this, and expect to reach any sort of middle ground to resolve upon.

wow, well we definately dont agree on this major issue.

this is kinda a defining moment actually.

you believe that god doesnt interefere and be part of every human being?

well, im definately not even going to try to convince you of the opposte, b/c well im just not going to waste my time.

i just was shocked that u of all ppl believe that way.

and yes yes, for record i respect your opinion, plz dont take my light disagreement personally, for it was not meant to be taken that way.

obviously as you have noticed i do belive that HaShem is in every single aspect of our physical world as much as he is in the spritual realm. everything we do has a purpose, everything that happens, was planed to happen. and yet we dont know why things happen they way they do, but we must all understand that if G-D willed it so, it must be for a positive reason in the end.

if its sin, its to give the opprotunity of that soul to go to even a higher state of godliness, that even a tzadek cant reach.

i dont know if u heard this but a ba'al shuva, has a higher spritual merit than even a tzadek.

my personal philosophy is that, everything happens for a reason. you may think its a weak one, because it just makes me 'feel better' and things have 'purpose' instead of just utter chaos. and you know what if you 'feel better' thinking the opposite, go right ahead.

let bygons be bygons.

i will always hold true though that 600,000 jews experienced HaShem as a WHOLE a statement NEVER made by any other nation in history. (and the fact that there are EXACTLY 600,000 hebrew letters in the torah to commorate that fact)

Right. But causing her to miscarry is only destruction of property, under the law; that is what I'm basing my comment on. It can't be property destruction if it's accidental and murder if it's deliberate. That defies all common sense as well as legal regulations.

So if it's destruction of property, a foetus is property. If a foetus is property, it's for the owner (the woman) to handle as she sees fit. Because it has the potential to become human life, that argues that she should use caution and good judgement, but it doesn't imply that a foetus is untouchable except to save the mother's life.