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Neferet -House of Night- Crew
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Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:44 am
Kimihiro_Watanuki Watagashi How can they not go to Heaven, though? Because they would have not repented of the sin. And no, I don't mean the layman's repentance when one just says their sorry. I mean the Biblical repentance in which you admit to a sin and then make a conscious effort to avoid committing that sin again. So again, you can be a homosexual and be a Christian, but you cannot be a homosexual and go to Heaven. Prove it. Watagashi If homosexuality is a sin, then it's just as bad as Christian who has a habit of lying. Quote: And habitual liars don't get into Heaven either. You can be a liar and be a Christian, but you cannot be a liar and get into Heaven. The key is to repent of either sin, and then make the effort to avoid committing the sin. Prove it. Watagashi Sin is sin, and sinners go to Heaven - why would someone homosexual be specially condemned and exempted of this? Quote: No. Saved people go to heaven. Sinners go to Hell. Read your Bible. And Sinners can be saved. Also, Prove it. Watagashi They can be as Christian as anyone else out there in the world. Quote: But they cannot be saved. Prove it. Watagashi I think that there are members of certain denominations that love to judge and condemn people, but nowhere in the Bible has it ever said that 'all homosexuals are going to hell'. Quote: Ha. My father is the pastor of a Non-denominational church as has admitted he's offended by the mere mention of homosexuality. It has nothing to do with denomination, and everything to do with the Bible. God despises homosexuality. The goal of Christians is to become more like God. Thus, Christians must despise homosexuality also. If you really believe that tripe that God is just gonna let anyone into Heaven if they're sorry enough, I suggest you bring a scriptural basis with it. I have to say that your dad is an idiot. If anything, his congregation should be ashamed to call him their pastor. Also, Stop using the OT, it's dead and no longer applies anymore. And you should refrain from using Revelation since it's Joseph talking about the Roman occupation. neutral
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Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:01 am
-xXLady RaiXx- Also, Stop using the OT, it's dead and no longer applies anymore. And you should refrain from using Revelation since it's Joseph talking about the Roman occupation. neutral Rai, you know I love you, but this is just dumb. The OT still applies as stated in Matthew 5:17-18. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or Prophets, but to fulfill them. And no one should refrain from using any part of the Bible. The Bible is the foundation for the Christian belief system. If a person ignores one part of the Bible and favors another, they have no business calling themselves Christian. Scriptural basis for other stuff will be coming later.
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Neferet -House of Night- Crew
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Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:39 pm
Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Also, Stop using the OT, it's dead and no longer applies anymore. And you should refrain from using Revelation since it's Joseph talking about the Roman occupation. neutral Rai, you know I love you, but this is just dumb. The OT still applies as stated in Matthew 5:17-18. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or Prophets, but to fulfill them. And no one should refrain from using any part of the Bible. The Bible is the foundation for the Christian belief system. If a person ignores one part of the Bible and favors another, they have no business calling themselves Christian. Scriptural basis for other stuff will be coming later. If you follow one law of Leviticus l law then you have to follow all of them. neutral There is no picking and choosing. You should know this by now. I would, if I were a Christian or Jew. I'm not. I'm simply informing Christians and Jews and the like that they should be following those laws. Again. OT is obsolete and was made so when Jesus came. No if ands or buts about it. neutral Not only that but the Bible is open to interpretation. neutral
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Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:44 pm
-xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Also, Stop using the OT, it's dead and no longer applies anymore. And you should refrain from using Revelation since it's Joseph talking about the Roman occupation. neutral Rai, you know I love you, but this is just dumb. The OT still applies as stated in Matthew 5:17-18. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or Prophets, but to fulfill them. And no one should refrain from using any part of the Bible. The Bible is the foundation for the Christian belief system. If a person ignores one part of the Bible and favors another, they have no business calling themselves Christian. Scriptural basis for other stuff will be coming later. If you follow one law of Leviticus l law then you have to follow all of them. neutral There is no picking and choosing. You should know this by now. I would, if I were a Christian or Jew. I'm not. I'm simply informing Christians and Jews and the like that they should be following those laws. Again. OT is obsolete and was made so when Jesus came. No if ands or buts about it. neutral Not only that but the Bible is open to interpretation. neutral I already showed you 2 Timothy 2:15. What more proof do you need? The Bible is clearly not open to interpretation, nor is the OT obsolete. The Bible says so itself.
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Neferet -House of Night- Crew
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Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:14 pm
Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Also, Stop using the OT, it's dead and no longer applies anymore. And you should refrain from using Revelation since it's Joseph talking about the Roman occupation. neutral Rai, you know I love you, but this is just dumb. The OT still applies as stated in Matthew 5:17-18. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or Prophets, but to fulfill them. And no one should refrain from using any part of the Bible. The Bible is the foundation for the Christian belief system. If a person ignores one part of the Bible and favors another, they have no business calling themselves Christian. Scriptural basis for other stuff will be coming later. If you follow one law of Leviticus l law then you have to follow all of them. neutral There is no picking and choosing. You should know this by now. I would, if I were a Christian or Jew. I'm not. I'm simply informing Christians and Jews and the like that they should be following those laws. Again. OT is obsolete and was made so when Jesus came. No if ands or buts about it. neutral Not only that but the Bible is open to interpretation. neutral I already showed you 2 Timothy 2:15. What more proof do you need? The Bible is clearly not open to interpretation, nor is the OT obsolete. The Bible says so itself. The Bible says a lot of things. If the Bible said to jump off a bridge would you or anyone else do it? Chances are if they believed in the Bible literally they would. If they had a good head on their shoulders like the group that are members here they wouldn't. This is why I haven't invited the zealots yet. neutral
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Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:42 pm
-xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- If you follow one law of Leviticus l law then you have to follow all of them. neutral There is no picking and choosing. You should know this by now. I would, if I were a Christian or Jew. I'm not. I'm simply informing Christians and Jews and the like that they should be following those laws. Again. OT is obsolete and was made so when Jesus came. No if ands or buts about it. neutral Not only that but the Bible is open to interpretation. neutral I already showed you 2 Timothy 2:15. What more proof do you need? The Bible is clearly not open to interpretation, nor is the OT obsolete. The Bible says so itself. The Bible says a lot of things. If the Bible said to jump off a bridge would you or anyone else do it? Chances are if they believed in the Bible literally they would. If they had a good head on their shoulders like the group that are members here they wouldn't. This is why I haven't invited the zealots yet. neutral I wouldn't do it because I'm not a Christian. But I'd expect Christians all around the world to start jumping off bridges. Those who didn't I would call fakes. Call me cold. Call me an idiot. The Bible clearly outlines the guidelines by which Christians should live. The one's here with "good heads on their shoulders" are simply the kinds of fakes I'm talking about. The ones who bend Christianity to suit their lifestyle and views. As far as invitations go, this is your guild, so invite and accept who you want. You put me on Crew so that I could moderate should the need arise, and moderate I shall.
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:19 am
Concerning Matt 5:17-19 Boxy did a nice post addressing this Boxy namida_no_chi The problem with trying to follow Jesus AND Christianity, is that it is almost a paradox (silly as it may sound). Take, for instance, Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-19 (go read it yourself for exact quotation, don't just take my word for it razz ), where he says that he does not come to destroy the Torah, that not the smallest thing should pass from the Torah till the heavens and Earth pass away, etc. Um, I'm pretty sure you're leaving something out. " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:17-20) The Greek reads, ἕως ἂν παρέλθῃ ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ, ἰῶτα ἓν, ἢ μία κεραία οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου, ἕως ἂν πάντα γένηται. The "till... till" grammatical construction uses ἂν, which could be interpreted as "either... or." Thus, either the heavens and the earth perish, or the entirety of the law be fulfilled. Alternatively, you could interpret this passage as a chiasmus and that the "till" clauses should be interpreted as meaning the same; therefore, "till all be fulfilled" and "heaven and earth passing away" should mean the same thing. If one follows traditional Christian theology that the law was fulfilled with Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, then one might argue that the new covenant brought in a new heaven and earth as well. However, the chiasmus interpretation isn't all that effective, since the middle passage would have to be two distinct clauses, which it isn't. Additionally, I would point you to the last verse I quoted above: that the scribes and Pharisees, the arbiters of Rabbinical interpretation, were fundamentally violating the Law (i.e. the Torah). We'll get back to this later. namida_no_chi Despite this, one of the biggest teachings of Christianity in general (arguably) is that you no longer have to follow Old Testament laws (aka: Torah, which includes things like animal sacrifice, and dietary restrictions, "Jewish" holidays, etc), because Jesus supposedly did away with them. Actually, the reason why one no longer has to follow many parts of the Old Testament is that parts of it were specifically designed to prepare the people for Christ: " And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ." (Colossians 2:13-17) Additionally, the Apostles -- the authorized successors of Jesus to his leadership over his followers after his death -- only required a few things out of the new Christians: " For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:28-29) One reason for these prohibitions was much the same reason for many of the things in the Torah -- these things were incorporated in pagan fertility cults, of which followers of YHWH should not participate, whether it is in Old Testament times or in New Testament times. Overall, Christianity claims it is consistent with the spirit of the Torah, but that the letter of the Law was fulfilled with the atonement of Jesus Christ; thus, all are called to faith and good works, and not to cling to mitzvot which were already fulfilled. namida_no_chi But Jesus says right there in Matt. that he is NOT here to destroy the Torah, and it's supposed to be followed till the end of the Earth. So how could one say they follow Jesus' teachings, while simultaneously follow a religion that teaches one to ignore even this smallest of teachings of Jesus' here in Matt. 5:17-19? Well, it's quite impossible to follow Jesus and still follow Rabbinic Judaism, which Jesus declaimed as apostate. Jesus never agreed with anything the scribes and Pharisees taught.
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:20 am
Also to provide a different perspective, there is a text in the gnostic scriptures that address this issue. It's called Ptolemy's Letter to Flora. According to this text, there is a difference in the Law that Christ was talking about. There is the Law of God and the Law of Moses. The Law that Christ talks about fulfilling is the Law of God. The rabbis were focused on the Law of Moses which distracted and often contradicted the Law of God. Christ fulfilled the Law of God by giving his greatest commandment Matt 22: 36-40. God's Law has not passed away and we are still bound to God's Law but Christ freed us from the Laws of Moses which prevented us from following God's Law.
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Neferet -House of Night- Crew
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:37 am
Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- If you follow one law of Leviticus l law then you have to follow all of them. neutral There is no picking and choosing. You should know this by now. I would, if I were a Christian or Jew. I'm not. I'm simply informing Christians and Jews and the like that they should be following those laws. Again. OT is obsolete and was made so when Jesus came. No if ands or buts about it. neutral Not only that but the Bible is open to interpretation. neutral I already showed you 2 Timothy 2:15. What more proof do you need? The Bible is clearly not open to interpretation, nor is the OT obsolete. The Bible says so itself. The Bible says a lot of things. If the Bible said to jump off a bridge would you or anyone else do it? Chances are if they believed in the Bible literally they would. If they had a good head on their shoulders like the group that are members here they wouldn't. This is why I haven't invited the zealots yet. neutral I wouldn't do it because I'm not a Christian. But I'd expect Christians all around the world to start jumping off bridges. Those who didn't I would call fakes. Call me cold. Call me an idiot. The Bible clearly outlines the guidelines by which Christians should live. The one's here with "good heads on their shoulders" are simply the kinds of fakes I'm talking about. The ones who bend Christianity to suit their lifestyle and views. As far as invitations go, this is your guild, so invite and accept who you want. You put me on Crew so that I could moderate should the need arise, and moderate I shall. Actually you have it backwards. Those that preach hatred, bigotry, and the like are the fakes. We have to remember that Jesus was a kind loving soul and didn't hate anyone. Remember Bruce? neutral
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:08 am
-xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Again. OT is obsolete and was made so when Jesus came. No if ands or buts about it. neutral Not only that but the Bible is open to interpretation. neutral I already showed you 2 Timothy 2:15. What more proof do you need? The Bible is clearly not open to interpretation, nor is the OT obsolete. The Bible says so itself. The Bible says a lot of things. If the Bible said to jump off a bridge would you or anyone else do it? Chances are if they believed in the Bible literally they would. If they had a good head on their shoulders like the group that are members here they wouldn't. This is why I haven't invited the zealots yet. neutral I wouldn't do it because I'm not a Christian. But I'd expect Christians all around the world to start jumping off bridges. Those who didn't I would call fakes. Call me cold. Call me an idiot. The Bible clearly outlines the guidelines by which Christians should live. The one's here with "good heads on their shoulders" are simply the kinds of fakes I'm talking about. The ones who bend Christianity to suit their lifestyle and views. As far as invitations go, this is your guild, so invite and accept who you want. You put me on Crew so that I could moderate should the need arise, and moderate I shall. Actually you have it backwards. Those that preach hatred, bigotry, and the like are the fakes. We have to remember that Jesus was a kind loving soul and didn't hate anyone. Remember Bruce? neutral If such is the case, then this only shows how twisted and self-contradictory the Christian faith is. Jesus can be a loving and peaceful guy, sure. But then Jesus is supposed to be God and God throws a tantrum like a 5 year old every time someone drinks the last glass of Kool-Aid.
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Neferet -House of Night- Crew
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:23 am
Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Kimihiro_Watanuki -xXLady RaiXx- Again. OT is obsolete and was made so when Jesus came. No if ands or buts about it. neutral Not only that but the Bible is open to interpretation. neutral I already showed you 2 Timothy 2:15. What more proof do you need? The Bible is clearly not open to interpretation, nor is the OT obsolete. The Bible says so itself. The Bible says a lot of things. If the Bible said to jump off a bridge would you or anyone else do it? Chances are if they believed in the Bible literally they would. If they had a good head on their shoulders like the group that are members here they wouldn't. This is why I haven't invited the zealots yet. neutral I wouldn't do it because I'm not a Christian. But I'd expect Christians all around the world to start jumping off bridges. Those who didn't I would call fakes. Call me cold. Call me an idiot. The Bible clearly outlines the guidelines by which Christians should live. The one's here with "good heads on their shoulders" are simply the kinds of fakes I'm talking about. The ones who bend Christianity to suit their lifestyle and views. As far as invitations go, this is your guild, so invite and accept who you want. You put me on Crew so that I could moderate should the need arise, and moderate I shall. Actually you have it backwards. Those that preach hatred, bigotry, and the like are the fakes. We have to remember that Jesus was a kind loving soul and didn't hate anyone. Remember Bruce? neutral If such is the case, then this only shows how twisted and self-contradictory the Christian faith is. Jesus can be a loving and peaceful guy, sure. But then Jesus is supposed to be God and God throws a tantrum like a 5 year old every time someone drinks the last glass of Kool-Aid. And that shows that Jesus isn't so perfect. biggrin However we don't know that these tantrums even happened because we weren't there. :3
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