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 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Or actual Chimeras. But let's get back to your question, Behatz.
I don't know much regarding the laws of the body, but I'm pretty sure that besides circumcision, haristyle choices, grooming, and standard ear piercing, you aren't supposed/allowed to do anything to your body. No extraneous piercings, no tatoos (though I've heard that the Israeli army has some exceptions). So I guess Plastic Surgery would also not be allowed? And I would say the same about brain transplants, though something tells me it's not in the Torah or any of the commentaries of the Zugot, Tannaim, or Rishonim.
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:10 pm
But what we're getting onto here are 2 questions:
.Is a face someone's identity?
.Does the mind reside in the brain or the soul, or neither?
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:45 pm
I would say the face is a huge chunk of an idenity and that the mind is in the soul but only accessible with the corresponding brain given by G-d.
Still, either way the body is messed with and so they're both proabably illegal by halacha, right?
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:14 am
Behatzlacha-S Let me go on to science: a Chimera is an embryo made with the genes of several species including a human one. However, there is no way it can survive to foetus, as it is unnatural and is basically a bundle of cells doomed to die. Actually, a chimera is a human being with the genes of more than one person, and they frequently do survive to adulthood. What happens is that fraternal twins are created in the womb, and then one twin slowly absorbs the other, until little or no evidence is left to identify the former twin. The person looks normal, and is normal. There have been episodes of CSI and other shows (mostly cop/crime shows) featuring chimeras, most hinging on the fact that the criminal left DNA at the crime scene from blood, semen, hair, or sweat. Then they get their DNA tested via a cheek swab and this cheek DNA isn't the same as the stuff left at the crime scene, so they go free... until some clever person thinks to test their blood! Aha! Then they're caught for sure. Another show, Strong Medicine, focused on a mother whose DNA was tested along with that of her two sons, and it was found that she wasn't their mother -- despite the fact that she had gone to the OB-GYN on the show for fertilization and then again for childbirth. Her DNA was tested all over -- hair, saliva, cheek, blood, sweat, and skin from different areas of her body -- until finally they found that her uterine DNA was the mother-DNA of her children even though the entire rest of her was another set of DNA. Chimerism is said to be rare, but how many people get their DNA tested? How many people are exonerated with cheek-swab DNA, when they would have been found guilty if tested by blood, semen, or hair? We don't actually know. Every once in a while, you'll find people with teeth growing out of their spine, right? And it always winds up in the National Enquirer and other gossip magazines, right next to Bat Boy Marries Cabbage Girl stories. ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** New subject! Plastic surgery is permitted by halachah if one's looks have caused oneself mental and/or emotional anguish, or have interfered with one's ability to find a wife/husband and marry. What's not permitted are the plastic surgeries that cause one to look like a lizard man, a cheetah, or to make a person into a doppelganger of someone famous. Those are considered frivolous, and worse, trying to "improve" upon the image of Hashem which was placed within the human being. I don't know how finely the line is drawn, as I'm not a rabbinic authority or a plastic surgeon; consult your local observant/Orthodox rabbi (CYLOR).
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:03 pm
I dunno what articles I've been reading then. National Geogrpahic is so stupid. Either that or you shouldn't take scientific knowledge from CSI: Miami. xd
The chimera you're thinking of is the one that causes hermaphroditism and occurs naturally. The one I'm thinking of is when two zygotes from different species are mixed in a lab to form a kind of hybrid. The ones like the geep (sheep/goat) have a possibility of survival, as does the rouse (rat/mouse) but the rabbit/humans and cow/humans have never survived past 3 days and 32 cells. One looked like it might, but it was destroyed and used to harvest stem cells.
What are your opinions on the theoretical brain transplant and face transplant, though?
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:09 pm
But Cathumans anre never to be.
Face Transplant I think would be answered by the Plastic Surgery Analysis; Isn't that what it essentially is?
Brain transplant would not conform to the outer looks traumatism loophole, and I astill think the mind would not be accessible.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:19 am
Behatzlacha-S I dunno what articles I've been reading then. National Geogrpahic is so stupid. Either that or you shouldn't take scientific knowledge from CSI: Miami. xd Well, that's a good piece of advice no matter what. wink But I did look it up, and found that that condition exists and is thought to be fairly rare. I say "thought to be," because it's been rare among those who have had their DNA tested. How many of us have had their DNA tested? I haven't. Behatzlacha-S The chimera you're thinking of is the one that causes hermaphroditism and occurs naturally. The one I'm thinking of is when two zygotes from different species are mixed in a lab to form a kind of hybrid. The ones like the geep (sheep/goat) have a possibility of survival, as does the rouse (rat/mouse) but the rabbit/humans and cow/humans have never survived past 3 days and 32 cells. One looked like it might, but it was destroyed and used to harvest stem cells. Yes, that chimerism is the one that can cause a person to be born intersexed, though that's not the only reason for intersexed individuals to exist; and it can cause other things as well, like the rather famous man with three legs, and so on. Behatzlacha-S What are your opinions on the theoretical brain transplant and face transplant, though? I'm wondering who the individual would turn out to be. Would it be the person who was the brain, or would it be the person who was the body? Would the psychological trauma associated with being a personality whose brain and body didn't match, be worth the additional days or years of life that would be granted? I'm also imagining a rather creepy set of movies by the likes of M. Night Shyamalan, movies that I would definitely not want to see.
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:56 pm
I would totally want to see the movie..and then I'd run out screaming before the name even shows up on the screen. xd
I still think that the brain would have the personality.
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:10 pm
Now here's a Judaism question to consider when answering the brain one:
Does the mind exist in the soul? Because, if it does, then the brain is just another organ and the soul will stay in the individual bodies. But if the mind exists in the brain, as science would have us believe, then the person would basically wake up in another body... weird thought, huh?
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:14 am
The problem as I see it is... Okay, what happens if I get a face transplant -- not the brain, nothing else in the body, just the face? I look in the mirror and see a stranger. Other people that love me won't recognize me. People who do recognize my face will be strangers that the face-donor met or knew well, but I didn't.
If my brain goes into a stranger's body because I'm the transplant donor, the problem is even greater. If I retain my soul and memories, then I'm me, wearing someone else's body. Which means that though that other person's body is still functioning, their soul is gone, and mine has replaced it within the body, and therefore I'm a party to the murder of that soul. If the body retains its own soul and memories, then the brain I donated is now theirs; my education, thoughts, feelings, memories, personhood... are gone, and I've been killed.
There's too much at stake. Even if halachically it would be permitted (that's a BIG "if" and I'm not prepared to give an opinion, nor even to look it up and find an answer), I wouldn't want to be a part of it at all.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:28 pm
Yay questions that make us go "Hmmm..."!
Personally, I believe a face transplant can sometimes be the best option. If someone has suffered such trauma to the face that they are unrecognisable and are unhappy with their image, they have 2 options:
1. Wear a Phantom of the Opera-style mask/veil.
2. Get a face transplant
And, as you said earlier, this surgery is allowed if someone's image causes them emotional difficulties.
On brain transplants, I think we need someone else's opinion.
Anyone?
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:39 pm
Here's an extra layer:
If I am in the transplant and I end up with someone's brain but my own mind, am I still the same me? Without my Cyngulate Gyrus and serotonin issues I would not have OCD and wouldn't be the me that I've always been and that G-d designed.
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:07 pm
Forget that, what if your mind moved with your brain? You'd be in someone else's body, with different perception of sight, smell, touch, balance, heat, sound, taste... everything! Your movements would be unnatural as you wouldn't be used to the difference in body shape and size!
And you might end up in the body of a Goy. What then? Are you still Jewish automatically if your new body has no Jewish blood?
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:33 pm
I'd say you'd probably have to convert back in as a technicality.
But seriously, consider my layer.
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Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:40 pm
Lumanny Here's an extra layer: If I am in the transplant and I end up with someone's brain but my own mind, am I still the same me? Without my Cyngulate Gyrus and serotonin issues I would not have OCD and wouldn't be the me that I've always been and that G-d designed. It's your memories, thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc that make you what you are. You aren't a mental disorder in the same way a cancer sufferer isn't a disease. Consider it a cure more than anything!
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