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 Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:02 pm
Freedom the wolf Xeigrich Freedom the wolf Xeigrich That's what I was thinking, as well as the PC game Arcanum. Also, pretty much any time something steampunk comes out of Asia it's got a good splash of high fantasy mixed in (such as in RPG games, some anime, etc. Obviously not everything since Steamboy is almost the pure essence of steampunk.) You could consider the Alchemy in Full Metal Alchemist to be a sort of magic, although they try to play it off as a sort of science similar to real alchemy. It's not uncommon at all to see high fantasy and occult fantasy get mixed in with steampunk. I personally usually prefer the magic and paranormal stuff kept to a minimum, as it takes away from the steampunk aspect. Why power stuff with messy steam when you could just charge up your golem with magical energy? Oh, steampunk vs. magic... hmm. Final Fantasy has steampunk elements magic=magepunk steam power=steampunk I have to say, the presence of steampunk elements in Final Fantasy games is negligible. How many mechanical creations in Final Fantasy can be clearly and obviously labeled as "steam powered?" One might even go as far as to say that some Final Fantasy games, namely VII and VIII, are borderline cyberpunk. While I can't comment on Final Fantasy X-2, XI, XII, or the upcoming XIII, games, I through X have very little in the way of steampunk-- except VI, which is arguably the only steampunk-ish Final Fantasy, but even then the important machines are all powered by Magitek anyway, with the unimportant 'background' stuff being steam-powered (but not anachronistically so). I guess if anything you could call FFVI "magepunk." Most of the other Final Fantasy games have at times featured fantastical machines, but none of them ever steam based except maybe some trains, and only a few of them, if any, even powered by clockwork movements. There are a lot of mechanical enemies, too, but I don't specifically recall any of them being steam powered at all. Sure, there are airships, but airships themselves are not steampunk, especially if they're powered by magic, or magical "mist" like in FFIX. Magic has always been the focus in Final Fantasy games, and when there is something with a semblance of steampunk elements, it's generally in the background or presented as "ancient technology," and usually things like vehicles, machinery and the like, are shrugged off and given the benefit of the doubt, assuming that they just were developed naturally along with advancement of the human race (or whatever dominant races were present). And magepunk seems to be splitting hairs. What separates typical your typical fantasy magic from magepunk magic? Do you just take the steam out of steampunk and replace it with magic-powered machines? Is magical technology even to be considered technology? I mean, magic is anachronistic no matter what you do with it, but clockwork/steam/diesel/electricity/nuclear power are all real things that have been developed at specific real-life points in time. Ive played FFIV advance but its basically FFII and it has airships powered by steam I think.I agree that most final fantasy games are magepunk and I really dont know the difference between fantasy magic and magepunk magic except of how my friend explained it. Magepunk could be in any setting from modern day to midevil period, or alternitive universe I've played through the original Super Nintendo release of US Final Fantasy II, as well as the DS retranslated remake properly named Final Fantasy IV, and in neither version do they ever once mention or show what it is that powers the airships. All you see is that they maneuver using propellers, but you can only assume that they run on steam or some other power source, and that's my point exactly. They either neglect to tell you what makes the Final Fantasy machines run, or they outright say what it is and it's something like Mako, Magitek, or magical Mist, some sort of crystal, or whatever the current game uses, if anything. You can't just assume that it runs on steam or is a steampunk machine simply because it kinda looks like it might run on steam or has a similar aesthetic.
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:44 pm
Ok dude can we stop this its starting to feel like an arguement, I cleary just stated my opinion on FFIV and this thread is about the occult aspect of steampunk.
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:49 pm
Thing about magic is, it's far more expensive than good machinery. So you use it sparingly, to augment your technology. Using magic to do it all is just a waste of resources.
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:02 pm
Mylian Thing about magic is, it's far more expensive than good machinery. So you use it sparingly, to augment your technology. Using magic to do it all is just a waste of resources. That's a good point, but it can work the other way too, if you think about it. What if coal and other combustible fuels are sparse, but magical energy is abundant? You'd reserve the coal and steam-power for only the most important endeavors. I never thought of this way, really... We generally just assume that coal and whatnot are plentiful and things like magic are hidden away and kept to a minimum, but it could easily work both ways, especially if you introduce steampunk into a predominantly high-fantasy environment where magic is commonplace and is considered a disposable resource. I like this~
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:00 pm
I always thought of 'magic' as a type of energy that can be harnessed, however few know how to do it, and hoard that knowledge.
FFV was a bit more steamy, notably the kingdom of the fire crystal, where the most advanced technology was a steamship. You get the ship, but it sinks and is replaced by the signature airship, which is a clockwork machine. (I say this because you can see the gears spinning throughout the ship interior, as well as the 'dock' it's located in.)
I doubt many have played or remember it, but FFV was known mostly for FF's 'best villain and recurring character,' Gilgamesh.
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:41 pm
SPI -14 I always thought of 'magic' as a type of energy that can be harnessed, however few know how to do it, and hoard that knowledge. FFV was a bit more steamy, notably the kingdom of the fire crystal, where the most advanced technology was a steamship. You get the ship, but it sinks and is replaced by the signature airship, which is a clockwork machine. (I say this because you can see the gears spinning throughout the ship interior, as well as the 'dock' it's located in.) I doubt many have played or remember it, but FFV was known mostly for FF's 'best villain and recurring character,' Gilgamesh. I have FFV on PS1 along with FFVI (the Final Fantasy Anthology compilation), but I never really played it. I ended up playing FFVI to the end instead. I didn't really like the job system in V... it was nice at first but the flexibility was a little much for me, having been used to games like FFIV where you don't get any say whatsoever in how the characters develop. However, all this talk of Final Fantasy has given me the itch to go back and play through them all, this time including the ones I never finished. I wanna see this fire kingdom in FFV! Oh, and so the thread doesn't get to off topic, the table-top miniatures game "WarMachine" is steampunk with magic mixed in, no doubt about it.
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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:59 am
It's the third crystal in, so it's pretty early in the game.
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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:21 pm
I think vampires have every right to exist within a steampunk world. After all, they tend to be a victorian type creation. I personally believe that too much fantasy overides the point of steampunk. If the super-natural/ occult is going to play a part I would choose a specific detial and keep that it's only influence. Say another race or races of beings existed on the same planet, I would keep that the only fantasy aspect. I wouldn't also have them cast spells or be able to cross into other worlds.
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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:15 pm
NewAgeAntique I think vampires have every right to exist within a steampunk world. After all, they tend to be a victorian type creation. I personally believe that too much fantasy overides the point of steampunk. If the super-natural/ occult is going to play a part I would choose a specific detial and keep that it's only influence. Say another race or races of beings existed on the same planet, I would keep that the only fantasy aspect. I wouldn't also have them cast spells or be able to cross into other worlds. Steampires! I don't see any reason why vampires shouldn't be in steampunk, either. Van Helsing style, with or without the Frankenstein's monsters and werewolves. Honestly, I prefer my werewolves and vampires kept apart. It's a ninjas vs. pirates sort of thing. But if it's done right, I think vampires would be a lot more cool and appropriate in a Victorian steampunk environment, whereas modern rock-star, sexy-lover type of vampires are getting to be just lame. Frankenstein's monster is kinda steampunk occult, though according to the original story he was brought to life by alchemy and science (mad science, at least). He could just as easily be brought to life by magic like a typical golem, but with a steampunk flair, similar to the Franken Berry cereal character. Technically speaking, Frankenstein was publish before the Victorian era, but that doesn't stop us anachronistic types. And I don't think madame Shelley would object. xp
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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:26 pm
NewAgeAntique I think vampires have every right to exist within a steampunk world. After all, they tend to be a victorian type creation. I personally believe that too much fantasy overides the point of steampunk. If the super-natural/ occult is going to play a part I would choose a specific detial and keep that it's only influence. Say another race or races of beings existed on the same planet, I would keep that the only fantasy aspect. I wouldn't also have them cast spells or be able to cross into other worlds. If you can find a copy of Unhallowed Metropolis it's the perfect example of how a Neo-Victorian society would handle vampires (the vampires in that universe are caused by a plague which reanimates having evolved into 2 strains the most common causing zombies)
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:38 pm
This thread made me think about Jonathan Strange and Mister Norrell by Susannah Clark. It's not steampunk (no airships or steambots and suchlike), but it is set in 19th century England, and there's magic up the wazoo. I recommend it to any fantasy lover who is interested in the period. Seriously, it's good.
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:16 pm
No Such Machine This thread made me think about Jonathan Strange and Mister Norrell by Susannah Clark. It's not steampunk (no airships or steambots and suchlike), but it is set in 19th century England, and there's magic up the wazoo. I recommend it to any fantasy lover who is interested in the period. Seriously, it's good. I must find this novel it seems interesting since it won a hugo award
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:29 pm
Freedom the wolf Xeigrich That's what I was thinking, as well as the PC game Arcanum. Also, pretty much any time something steampunk comes out of Asia it's got a good splash of high fantasy mixed in (such as in RPG games, some anime, etc. Obviously not everything since Steamboy is almost the pure essence of steampunk.) You could consider the Alchemy in Full Metal Alchemist to be a sort of magic, although they try to play it off as a sort of science similar to real alchemy. It's not uncommon at all to see high fantasy and occult fantasy get mixed in with steampunk. I personally usually prefer the magic and paranormal stuff kept to a minimum, as it takes away from the steampunk aspect. Why power stuff with messy steam when you could just charge up your golem with magical energy? Oh, steampunk vs. magic... hmm. Final Fantasy has steampunk elements magic=magepunk steam power=steampunk
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:48 pm
Xeigrich Freedom the wolf Xeigrich Freedom the wolf Xeigrich That's what I was thinking, as well as the PC game Arcanum. Also, pretty much any time something steampunk comes out of Asia it's got a good splash of high fantasy mixed in (such as in RPG games, some anime, etc. Obviously not everything since Steamboy is almost the pure essence of steampunk.) You could consider the Alchemy in Full Metal Alchemist to be a sort of magic, although they try to play it off as a sort of science similar to real alchemy. It's not uncommon at all to see high fantasy and occult fantasy get mixed in with steampunk. I personally usually prefer the magic and paranormal stuff kept to a minimum, as it takes away from the steampunk aspect. Why power stuff with messy steam when you could just charge up your golem with magical energy? Oh, steampunk vs. magic... hmm. Final Fantasy has steampunk elements magic=magepunk steam power=steampunk I have to say, the presence of steampunk elements in Final Fantasy games is negligible. How many mechanical creations in Final Fantasy can be clearly and obviously labeled as "steam powered?" One might even go as far as to say that some Final Fantasy games, namely VII and VIII, are borderline cyberpunk. While I can't comment on Final Fantasy X-2, XI, XII, or the upcoming XIII, games, I through X have very little in the way of steampunk-- except VI, which is arguably the only steampunk-ish Final Fantasy, but even then the important machines are all powered by Magitek anyway, with the unimportant 'background' stuff being steam-powered (but not anachronistically so). I guess if anything you could call FFVI "magepunk." Most of the other Final Fantasy games have at times featured fantastical machines, but none of them ever steam based except maybe some trains, and only a few of them, if any, even powered by clockwork movements. There are a lot of mechanical enemies, too, but I don't specifically recall any of them being steam powered at all. Sure, there are airships, but airships themselves are not steampunk, especially if they're powered by magic, or magical "mist" like in FFIX. Magic has always been the focus in Final Fantasy games, and when there is something with a semblance of steampunk elements, it's generally in the background or presented as "ancient technology," and usually things like vehicles, machinery and the like, are shrugged off and given the benefit of the doubt, assuming that they just were developed naturally along with advancement of the human race (or whatever dominant races were present). And magepunk seems to be splitting hairs. What separates typical your typical fantasy magic from magepunk magic? Do you just take the steam out of steampunk and replace it with magic-powered machines? Is magical technology even to be considered technology? I mean, magic is anachronistic no matter what you do with it, but clockwork/steam/diesel/electricity/nuclear power are all real things that have been developed at specific real-life points in time. Ive played FFIV advance but its basically FFII and it has airships powered by steam I think.I agree that most final fantasy games are magepunk and I really dont know the difference between fantasy magic and magepunk magic except of how my friend explained it. Magepunk could be in any setting from modern day to midevil period, or alternitive universe I've played through the original Super Nintendo release of US Final Fantasy II, as well as the DS retranslated remake properly named Final Fantasy IV, and in neither version do they ever once mention or show what it is that powers the airships. All you see is that they maneuver using propellers, but you can only assume that they run on steam or some other power source, and that's my point exactly. They either neglect to tell you what makes the Final Fantasy machines run, or they outright say what it is and it's something like Mako, Magitek, or magical Mist, some sort of crystal, or whatever the current game uses, if anything. You can't just assume that it runs on steam or is a steampunk machine simply because it kinda looks like it might run on steam or has a similar aesthetic.
And as for other aspects of technology being manipulated by magic, well it's Final Fantasy...there has to be magic to make Final Fantasy what it is.
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Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:41 pm
That's exactly what my point was, though. The steam-powered stuff is all mundane things, like trains and whatnot. Nothing that would even be unreasonably technologically advanced in our own world. The fancy stuff is all magic-powered. There's nothing "steampunk" about mundane steam-powered machines, and there's nothing "steampunk" about mechas powered by magic. There's definitely nothing steampunk about some steam-powered machines being placed alongside some magic-powered machines. If anything, I'd label this as "magicpunk" as Freedom the Wolf mentioned, if that's even a viable term. Although, now that I think of it, I seem to recall a desert castle that had some non-magical mechanical defense system that allowed it to burrow under the sand, and I think even travel around. That might qualify as steampunk... maybe clockpunk, I don't remember what powered the castle, but it wasn't magic. (NOTE: Just checked, it's Figaro Castle, and while it's at least mechanical, I'm not sure what powers it.) But also, as I've said before, airships are not inherently steampunk, in the same sense that cyborgs are not inherently cyberpunk (I mean, you wouldn't call Star Trek cyberpunk, would you?). Especially if the airships are powered by magic. Freedom the wolf No Such Machine This thread made me think about Jonathan Strange and Mister Norrell by Susannah Clark. It's not steampunk (no airships or steambots and suchlike), but it is set in 19th century England, and there's magic up the wazoo. I recommend it to any fantasy lover who is interested in the period. Seriously, it's good. I must find this novel it seems interesting since it won a hugo award I have this book! I bought it at Half-Price Books for like $5 on the recommendation of someone from the Conlang Guild. It's an interesting book, but I didn't finish it. It's a bit dense, as in... not much happens, but there's a lot of words, haha. I plan to finish it soon but I have a lot of half-read books I need to finish.
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