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 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:22 pm
In Judaism and pretty much all other Abrahamic religions, the soul does not enter the fetus until 40 days. It is no longer considered a fetus by Judaism, it is considered a child. The fetus is an organ of the mother until the soul enters.
I am pro-Choice, but I would never allow abortion after 40 days, unless it was the best opntion.
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:47 pm
where are we getting the specific numbers on when the soul enters the body?
I"ve been thinking it was based on the first breath or when a creature is capable of taking breath. As in, when the thing becomes viable.
I dunno. Im not sure what I'd do in the situation, but I'd likely go with adoption.
And talk to your rabbi. He's got a lot of wisdom and can probably help.
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:53 pm
Darling, I know you look up to your Rabbi and appreciate his guidance above most, but you have to make sure you're okay with how you'll react to being a mother. You are probably perfectly capable of nurturing another human being, I have much faith in you, but I would suggest doing some "soul searching" before the birth. When are you due?
On a semi related note, I plan on being a midwife after I can pay to get a Master's degree.
I'm pro-choice though I would never have an abortion.
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:47 am
dancing-in-the-streets where are we getting the specific numbers on when the soul enters the body? I"ve been thinking it was based on the first breath or when a creature is capable of taking breath. As in, when the thing becomes viable. I dunno. Im not sure what I'd do in the situation, but I'd likely go with adoption. And talk to your rabbi. He's got a lot of wisdom and can probably help. The Talmud records a few different sages' opinions. The earliest is that the human soul, the nefesh, enters the body forty days after conception; the latest is that it happens when the infant draws its first unassisted breath outside the womb. A baby is circumcised on the 8th day because on that day the Jewish soul, the neshamah, the thing that makes the difference between a Jew and a non-Jew, enters the body of a boy. A girl's neshamah (Jewish soul) is said to enter the body either: at 40 days after conception, the same time as the nefesh; upon drawing the first breath outside the womb, the same time as the nefesh; on the seventh day (one day earlier than a boy's); on the eighth day (the same day as the boy's); two weeks after birth; on the fifteenth day after birth (two weeks plus one day, like the boy's one week plus one day); or upon receiving her Hebrew name in synagogue, when her father goes in (she and the mother will still be home in childbed) and accepts a blessing on her behalf. Not being a Talmudic scholar, I cannot cite exact tractate and page, but I know there are a couple of students of Talmud here. If they happen to log in and see this, I hope they'll give their input.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:32 am
I love morality. Foetus' have been shown to sense pain and have a brain capable of sapience months before birth. Does that mean, therefore, that we have the right to cause them harm, and to decide whether they live or die? Maybe life begins before the soul? Does that mean that it cannot be called human? The Torah bans murder, but isn't that what abortion is? Murder of a child who cannot defend itself? These decisions are too much for me, personally. I'm just glad I'm not a woman.
Now, who wants to argue Euthanasia?
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:35 am
Behatzlacha-S Now, who wants to argue Euthanasia? Assisted suicide? HMM... lets see.  Yeah that should cover the topic right there.
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:51 am
Well, it's the same thing. if someone is dead naturally, on a life-support machine, is keeping it on prolonging their time on Earth and stopping them from moving on the the next life?
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:09 pm
Behatzlacha-S Well, it's the same thing. if someone is dead naturally, on a life-support machine, is keeping it on prolonging their time on Earth and stopping them from moving on the the next life? Nothing but doom down this road my friend. Turn back before you hit the shitstorm!
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:13 pm
My Religious Education teachers hate me. 3nodding
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:24 pm
Divash dancing-in-the-streets where are we getting the specific numbers on when the soul enters the body? I"ve been thinking it was based on the first breath or when a creature is capable of taking breath. As in, when the thing becomes viable. I dunno. Im not sure what I'd do in the situation, but I'd likely go with adoption. And talk to your rabbi. He's got a lot of wisdom and can probably help. The Talmud records a few different sages' opinions. The earliest is that the human soul, the nefesh, enters the body forty days after conception; the latest is that it happens when the infant draws its first unassisted breath outside the womb. A baby is circumcised on the 8th day because on that day the Jewish soul, the neshamah, the thing that makes the difference between a Jew and a non-Jew, enters the body of a boy. A girl's neshamah (Jewish soul) is said to enter the body either: at 40 days after conception, the same time as the nefesh; upon drawing the first breath outside the womb, the same time as the nefesh; on the seventh day (one day earlier than a boy's); on the eighth day (the same day as the boy's); two weeks after birth; on the fifteenth day after birth (two weeks plus one day, like the boy's one week plus one day); or upon receiving her Hebrew name in synagogue, when her father goes in (she and the mother will still be home in childbed) and accepts a blessing on her behalf. Not being a Talmudic scholar, I cannot cite exact tractate and page, but I know there are a couple of students of Talmud here. If they happen to log in and see this, I hope they'll give their input. Nicely done Divash. To be honest I wish the sages were a bit more clear on those things, consideringt hat alot of what they knew then is being proved by science today.
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:29 pm
Behatzlacha-S I love morality. Foetus' have been shown to sense pain and have a brain capable of sapience months before birth. Does that mean, therefore, that we have the right to cause them harm, and to decide whether they live or die? Maybe life begins before the soul? Does that mean that it cannot be called human? The Torah bans murder, but isn't that what abortion is? Murder of a child who cannot defend itself? These decisions are too much for me, personally. I'm just glad I'm not a woman. Now, who wants to argue Euthanasia? That is only because of the electrical signals of the mother. a fetus does not have it's own electrical signals until 3 months. After that it does. Now given there exceptions, but those are extremely rare.
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:32 pm
Behatzlacha-S My Religious Education teachers hate me. 3nodding LMAO! Dude, rabbis that are knowledgable and for real will be happy that you bring up such subjects, since it shows you are thinking.
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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:15 am
Zumbi2 Behatzlacha-S My Religious Education teachers hate me. 3nodding LMAO! Dude, rabbis that are knowledgable and for real will be happy that you bring up such subjects, since it shows you are thinking. Thanks for the compliment. I do a little too much thinking, sometimes. The problem with my school is they quickly touch on Hinduism, Sikhism and Judaism, and then quickly skip on to the more important religions, Christianity and Islam. So I make sure at every opportunity I bring up the Jewish views and beliefs, either from my own personal knowledge, from books, or from Divash's posts. xd I think discussing the views of others widens your own vision. Just don't talk to those without the same sentiments.
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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm
Why is Judaism 'less important' when it was the basis for Christianity and Islam.
Islam even says 'The way of life of Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed'
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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:22 pm
I'd like to know too.
talk2hand (Facepalm)
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