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First.. I asked to know of these rules you spoke about.. I am still waiting for them.. Also I would like to know why extraordinary claim need extraordinary evidence. I'm going to give you once more a little exemple you might have gotten sick of hearing but..
What kind of evidance would you give to convince someone who is blind that colors do exist?
Even if evidance exist for some of my claims, not everyone can actually receave the evidance... a blind person can no understand and experience color.. any evidance that colors exist aren't things that person can experience for himself/herself.



Well I ain't much feeling more sad so far. Oh and I also do not see how repeating a fact can prove that fact (well I can think of one way it can work but it's out of topic) Mind you explain how repeating a fact prove that fact? (I'm also taking into acount that you are probably been sarcastic to some point)




if induction really was a 100% sure thing to be true then yes it would be a proof of inexistance... But the real truth is that induction can be wrong also. They aren't always right and even I can make up faulty inductions..

An exemple would be "I never saw that you existed.. so I can make the induction that you don't exist". As you can see it does look weird and lack logic.
Another exemple would be that if you ignore every event that it have happen, there is no event left of it happening that you look at... So it's a little too easy to just induce that it have never been done?





Luck alternation by itself is a change in the concept of luck. It goes beyond just been a physical change. It never was something to be proven, it just is something to take as a possibility.
Also you didn't explain why something that can not be proven is bullshit. The world itself can not be proven... so far evolution haven't been proved, it only have been accepted as an highly possible theory.. Your existance haven't been proven to me yet..
Is the world bullshit? Is evolution bullshit? Are you bullshit??




Alright then I'll change my exemple a little to fufil your need of it been less specific... Take for exemple someone who live alone in an house for all his life. He lost his memory, both his legs and only remember up to his last year.. He doesn't remember ever seeing people before... Without ever meeting that guy, by just talking over the internet.. can you ever prove to him that walking is possible for most people?
Just talking isn't enough to convince him. A picture or a video and he'll say you faked it or maybe he is blind and can not see such a thing as a picture or a video...

For that guy, you will never be able to prove it within those conditions.. Are your claims of people been able to walk now bullshit or a fact? if you were that guy, you would probably just have said they should be able to prove it or else they are full of s**t.. that such a thing as "walking" is an extraordinary claim...





Over the internet I don't mind talking about such kind of thing.. in most case whatever people like you do, it will not come and affect me outside of the internet. But people who are around that are like you may react in really bad ways that could cause me unwanted troubles. I personnaly prefer not to attract such kind of attention just to try something on someone else. Such a thing for soul alternation require me to atleast ask that person first.. I don't do dangerous experience on other people without them knowing anymore.. Also.. even if I do get someone I can do the experience on and he/she is a sketic.. you can always refuse anything I say about it as either pure luck or that this person is faking it. or maybe that I invented everything about ever doing anything on a skeptic person..

Also just like you I can say I have no placebo. you might not be claiming to be able to change the weather but you are claiming that it is impossible even when you can't prove that it ain't possible yourself...
I never saw any proof I could give to others about such a thing happening but.. I never got any proof of it not been able to happen also..

If I have a placebo for accepting the possiblity of it happening without a proof that it can happen, then you have a placebo for belieiving it can not happen without a proof of it's impossibility..

Seriously? Really? Do any of you really believe this?

Pics or it didn't happen.

Yes, I am challenging you. If you are offended, it must be because you cannot prove any of this, or else you have nothing to fear. Show me a controlling of a ball of ice, or even a temperature change of any kind.

Seriously, first-hand accounts don't cut it. Because if they do, then I can just as easily be a dragon who can control all of fire. In fact, my eyeball is the sun, and I'm sitting on jupiter, which is indeed larger than the sun because I said so. I'm watching you, and I can smite you, or give you bad luck or some other unspecific, ambiguous malady. I can also change metals into babies and babies into chocolate, just with my mind. I once destroyed three whole cities by using too big of a psi-ball. Remember Atlantis? Troy? Saddom? That was me and my uber magix. Which is spelled with an X because that's why it's special and actually works.
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I appreciate your search for truth and wisdom and all that, but you're probably not going to get it here. Let's face it - the results we get in the guild are inconclusive. Since this is entirely online, there's very little we can do to validate one another's claims. All we can do is experiment, take each other's opinions meaningfully enough that they help our research, but lightly enough that we don't become mesmerised by what someone who could be lying says. Like Obscurus says, no amount of Internet proof will cut it for you. I've long since reconciled that since I can't expect others to be entirely truthful, observant or analytical, online or off, there's no point in believing any of the claims other people make on the site, but I will say that I do entertain the possibility that they are every bit as real for them as my experiences are for me. This guild is not about trying to prove that magick exists - it's to bring together those people that do believe it exists and allow them to continue their research with others' help.

If I could be so bold to make an observation, as you seem to have been pretty bold yourself: you seem really pissed that other people take things like magick seriously. Why bother being on a one-man crusade to debunk other's beliefs? Do you have any evidence that what you're doing is helpful and meaningful to whomever you're targeting?

Yes. By getting them from their foolish beliefs in the highly-improbable-with-no-evidence, they will have a freedom to find something productive to do.

I have challenged "witches" I know IRL, never to be destroyed or cursed or hit with a rank 3 fireball. I cannot stand the foolishness of claiming power but being powerless. It is arrogance and falsity, and when I see it, I challenge it. I tear down their delusions and with it, their supposed power. If they have no power, they have no purpose in claiming to unless they expect to be challenged.

Why do you assume:

a) That you have the capacity and methods to change people's beliefs on the internet,
b) That being productive is more important than having fun,
c) That they will move on to something productive after they give up their faith?

Secondly, why bother? The people in this guild only get out of it what they put into it: it's for your own personal research and experimentation. Folk aren't here to tell people that they roasted someone with a rank three fireball; they're here to talk about their work, their findings, brainstorm for ideas and get answers to questions. If you went onto an art forum and someone was bragging that they'd created the best picture of Sunflowers since van Gogh, then we wouldn't take their word as gospel without evidence. However, if someone suggested, for example, that light feathery strokes would be a perfect way to draw rivers, we could take that, try it out, and if we get results, discuss them. We would not think, "Ah, this person says light feathery strokes are the best way to draw rivers, and I will believe them wholeheartedly!". Likewise here -- folk aren't here to brag about their Occultopenis, they're here to share ideas.

As a corollary to the above -- what's the point in asking for proof? You've already decided that This Stuff doesn't exist, so it's obviously not to help yourself seek the truth. Pretty much all the members of the guild here believe in This Stuff, have considered the ramifications and arguments against it, and come out with their faith affirmed. The only reason I can see that you'd pose a challenge like this is to say "You can't do it, therefore you're wrong and I'm right." So bloody what? You got the one up on someone on the internet - now go and watch an argument between Ninty fanboys and Sony fanboys, and witness the degree of futility of your wee challenge here. Honestly, you campaign for productivity on Gaia? Really? Surely your superior logic would have clocked in at this point and helped you deduce precisely how stupid, hypocritical and self-defeating your challenge really is. The only thing that could possibly have backed up this idea is some sort of weird blind conviction that you can somehow change people's beliefs by some inexplicable charismatic power you have.

Ahem.

And, lastly: your ultimate aim is to convince people to stop spending their time doing something they enjoy in exchange for something productive? In that case, are you also campaigning against masturbation, fantasy fiction, dressing up your Gaia Avatar, designing and playing video games, roleplaying on forums, anime, and cuddling? I'm pretty sure you could be doing something more productive with your time than enjoying the above.

Consider for a moment that magic(k), psionics, witchcraft, energy manipulation, etc., etc. does not fit your current paradigm or worldview.

There's something to be said for wishing to help people, but I don't believe your motivations are entirely altruistic.

As I've said previously; go try these things for yourself. That's the only way you'll have your proof (or affirm that there is none). Give it a whole-hearted attempt and examine your findings. If you feel that there are more productive things to do, then don't waste our time expecting us to hand the proof to you on a silver platter; we also have more productive things to do.

Giving proof, if there is any to be had, will be good practice.

If there is no proof to be given, then what are you doing but pretending? If someone claims that it is possible for them to run ten miles in ten minutes, I'm not going to try it myself. I will challenge them to do it, I have a car and 10 minutes.

That's fine - you don't need to believe what anyone says without proof. However, this is the internet, and it's a Gaia forum. If you want proof of anything, it's bad form to look for it here.

That isn't the point, though. These forums are here for people who have experienced something of their own and want to discuss it with the same. It's not a contest; no-one here is bragging about running ten miles in ten minutes. If you want that, there are other Gaia Guilds. Everyone here is willing to suspend their disbelief for a little while in order to get some insight and feedback into their own and other people's experiences. Our BS-Radars are working fine, and I'm pretty sure most of us, when faced with people posting horrifically disproportionate scenarios like the ones you've suggested, would either call the person out and start and argument, or shrug their shoulders and let it fly. The latter group are not admitting defeat to the person posting the nonsense, they're simply acknowledging the futility of trying to prove or disprove any scenario presented to them on the internet.

Pseudoscience doesn't make all science look like kids with telescopes playing with numbers.

I'll be the first to tell you that most people claiming occult prowess are either delusional or don't understand the deeper mysteries. That's why when making a claim it's always a good idea to have reference material to fall back on that you took your ideas from. That's how it's done in traditional academics.

And you're right, people making such claims should be able to demonstrate it. The thing is, given the ephemeral nature of this field, repeatable results rarely manifest under laboratory conditions. Results usually depend upon the mindset of the practitioner and possibly the mindset of the observers.

My point is that most of the people that actually do have "gifts" don't publicize it. They may wax philosophic on forums like this, but "To remain silent," is still a part of the Hermetic Quaternary. The very act of disclosing their attempts could contaminate them, and if they reveal them after the fact it's seen as them telling a tale or coincidence.

I think most older members here (those few that still post) would agree with you that the majority of these claims are absurd, but despite all the people saying the world is flat or that the earth is the center of the universe there will still be people speaking the truth.

I think we forget that the purpose of occult or esoteric arts is not for bragging rights or even the pursuit of power, but they are for transformation and betterment of self and others. So in that sense, if someone claims to cast a spell to cause it to rain during a drought, and it does, does it really matter if it's coincidence or not?

If you don't want to utilise sources that cannot definitively prove their effectiveness, and don't want to take each scientifically-unprovable-but-otherwise-reasonable statement liberally in order to get a general idea of something, then Gaia is not for you. Like I said - this place is not for bragging or proving anything. It's for helping one another.

If all you want to do is verify veracity, stick to science. We won't miss you.