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 Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:37 am
Hmph, you're starting to sound like that guy I mentioned who said an elf isn't an elf unless it's superior to humans. It's all crap.
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:28 pm
hypnocrown Yes, rising from ashes is what makes a phoenix what it is. Otherwise it's NOT a phoenix. Am I right or what? But you know, whenever I heard that a phoenix would rise from the ashes, I always thought it was the same one. I mean, why would it be a new one like, a son or daughter for example? Maybe we could talk about this cuz I'm not sure if everyone here sees this in the same way or what. neutral I know the stories go both ways, and all I can think to ask is if a reincarnated person is the same through every life. I'm inclined to believe in something close to the theory of DNA memory where this is concerned. My mom and I actually had a conversation along these lines, without any definate decision. She questioned the psychological effect on the phoenix---does it forget everything every time it comes back, or remember everything (assuming it's the same one every time), and wondered what a lonely situation in life that would be, should it remember everything. Thoughts?
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Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:33 am
I don't believe in reincarnation per say. I believe in inherited memories that are suppressed and only accessible if you look into it deep enough.
When I first visited HMS Victory (see the past life regression thread) I felt drawn to her and after I felt a magnetism toward her. This goes a lot deeper than I am going to say here, but I've felt some things there that seem very familiar, yet I don't believe my soul was ever there....I believe I have at least one ancestor who lived, worked and died on board her.
Why shouldn't something remember things like that given the effort to do so? I think it would probably be too much on the mind for someone or something to remember all these things immediately. I think it would be a mental overload, but with time I don't see any reason why memories like that shouldn't be able to be unlocked.
A phoenix might be able to remember its predecessor vaguely and be able to harness its instincts.
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Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:17 am
DNA memory it is then.
Yes, total immediate recollection would drive someone/thing over the edge---thus the effort must be made, or blocks already in place.
I'm not sure if I'm all for the reincarnation idea where the phoenix is concerned ((outside of the straight-up myth/fantasy realm, I flat out don't believe it and typically don't get along with it anyway)); Same-but-different seems *far* more likely. How to work it out, I'm not entirely sure, but nevertheless.
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:19 am
Hey Mel! Why is it all crap? I mean, everything has something that defines it/them, right? I mean, there has to be something that makes you who you are, right? Otherwise everyone can be you! If a horse has a horn, it's a unicorn, if it doesn't, will you still call it a unicorn? I just don't get it...
But yeah, if anyone wants to make a story where the phoenix is the same one as it rises from its own ashes, who is going to stop you? Your editor, that's who! Ha-ha! lol
Seriously now, I don't have a problem with reading a story that is like that or, another one that has a phoenix dying and another much different rising from its ashes. Heck, they could even be somewhat different in appearance like, for example: the parent phoenix could have a pattern of blue and red on its feathers while the new one could have it in red and green. You know?
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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:08 pm
hypnocrown Yes, rising from ashes is what makes a phoenix what it is. Otherwise it's NOT a phoenix. Am I right or what?
My answer to that question is "no, you're wrong."
That is the conventional and most popular belief about the phoenix. It might be true, yet it might not be. I'm not sure about it myself right at this moment in time, but saying that it's not a phoenix if it doesn't rise from ashes I think is a narrow-minded view, just as that guy I know saying that an elf is not an elf unless it is superior to humans.
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:06 pm
Not only the conventional and most popular belief, though, Melkhar. Every legend I've found concerning the phoenix--Egyptian/Greek, Chinese, Russian, etc. with detail concerning the...for lack of a better term, reproductive cycle of a phoenix says that the newborn (whether itself all over again, the next generation, or something between the two) rises from version 1.0's ashes. The phoenix in and of itself is a symbol of death/falling and then rising again--perhaps making it more than just a metaphor for the Saviour (as previously breifly discussed), but for life itself. To quote Batman Begins, "Why do we fall? So that we can learn to pick ourselves up again." (also, see gym posters: "No pain, no gain.")
Any legend that does not referance the death of a phoenix, so far as I remember, meerly says that it is a rarely seen bird, and those that capture it will have great power.
There are certain traits which make a thing what it is---thus we have names and catagories. A phoenix must rise from the ashes, though that is not the sole defining trait, so Hypno's also a bit off, at least wording-wise. However, to the best of my knowledge, it is the only creature of myth that burns itself and rises from its own ashes.
In the case of believing an elf is not an elf unless it is superior to humans--and similar cases, but just focusing on that one example-- this is not necessarily true. They just usually are. Let's face it: Artemis Fowl has outsmarted the People how many times? In that series at the very least, the only advantages that Holly has over Artemis (elf v. human, not military v. civilian) is advanced tech and magical ability.
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Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:43 am
Fair points there Azriel.
What I meant was that it's wrong to say something isn't what it appears to be unless it has X, Y and Z traits. The usual concepts/beliefs aren't to be taken for granted. Those beliefs about the phoenix may or may not be true. There are ideas that we can work with on it to discern the best way of realistically or unrealistically describing it, which then helps those of us wanting to write about it to come up with the best way that's individual to us.
I simply said it's wrong for that guy I mentioned to say an elf is NOT an elf unless it is superior to humans, and wrong for Hypno to say a phoenix is not a phoenix unless its successor rises from its ashes when it dies. Those are the usual ideas/concepts/beliefs (whatever you like to call them), and the ones that are used most often. I'm saying that new concepts are just as valid and can be more true or more false than what's been the most used over the years.
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:22 pm
Thanks Azriel! That's pretty much what I was trying to point out. I mean, what is a bird without the ability to rise from its ashes? It's like with everything really, a thing is not a thing unless it has a definitive characteristic. I think that elves don't always have to be superior to humans in every way. There's more to elves than their pointy ears, is there not? Vulcans also have pointy ears but they are not elves, are they? It's like, what makes a dog to be a dog or, a cat to be a cat? There has to be something that never changes in order for something to be categorized as such, right? Otherwise there's chaos a foot. If you have a bird be able to talk, then it has to be a parrot or something alike, yes? Are you gonna say that a phoenix in a story won't rise from it's ashes and will be able to talk? Cuz if so, that does not sound like a phoenix to me at all. I hope I'm making my point clearer this time. mrgreen
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:47 pm
I'm wondering where the talking phoenix bit came in...but anyway--
All I know is there are plenty of people saying that no self-respecting vampire would *SPARKEL*
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Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:24 am
I didn't get either of those two bits really...
The piece about rising from the ashes might have a spiritual reality to it.
When anything dies, its body will eventually return to the earth if left alone; turning to dust, compost, etc....
When the body dies, the spirit rises from it to move on to the afterlife.
Perhaps the phoenix is the same, but with a significant difference.
When one dies, perhaps when its spirit rises to move on it has a "life-giving" property somehow?
That's another way of looking at it right?
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Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:31 pm
You're going to have to explain that last bit, life giving etc, a little further.
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:06 pm
Azriel_de_Leon All I know is there are plenty of people saying that no self-respecting vampire would *SPARKEL* Self-respect aside, there is also the obvious question of why no one is bothered or even takes notice of the fact that they sparkle and thinks it's weird... Though, I'm more concerned with vampires who "only eat animals" calling themselves "vegetarian." SMeyers has a rather special flavor of "logic." They can abstain from human blood all they want, but only eating animals doesn't make 'em vegetarians. Berz. EDIT: Er... that was wildly off-topic. Sorry. sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:32 am
Get in the vampirism thread Berz! smile
We need more people posting in there. It's basically just me and Hypno.
Responding to a question off-topic isn't so bad occasionally though, so long as we get right back on to it afterwards.
Azriel, the life-giving thing. In the Final Fantasy games, the Phoenix Down item revives KO'ed characters. I'm not saying the phoenix can resurrect those who are dead, exactly, but more a kind of rejuvenation. With the Phoenix Down, most of the time it revives the characters from the KO status, but not by much HP in most cases. Then you need to use potions to raise the HP again. In boss fights, that's a real pain in the bum because the enemy has an uncanny habit of knowing who you've just brought back.
Anyway...in more realistic terms than turn-based battle systems and hit points, the phoenix may be able to rejuvenate if someone is in a bad way so that they've got enough strength to get themselves to a doctor or something, or make them feel a bit stronger to get themselves to somewhere safe if they're weak and would otherwise die. When it comes to literal death and then resurrection, I really don't know. Perhaps if they'd recently died, but not if they'd been dead some time and their spirit has already gone. Restoration, I guess.
The other part made sense though right? As in the phoenix dies, turns to ash and then it's spirit rises from its corporeal ashes. If the bird were to be of the fire element anyway, then that'd make more sense mythically. Perhaps it only has a TRUE resurrection ability when it dies and the spirit rises.
What do you guys think of that point of view?
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:03 pm
I reckon it sounds like you're drifting into the realm of re-imagining the pheonix as you would concieve of it, rather than as it is represented in mythology...
Personally I'm quite fond of the idea that the myth of the existence of a 'phoenix' evolved from retellings of flamingos... with added extras, courtesy of people's fondness for embellishments to make a better story.
The use of the idea of a pheonix in contemporary culture, ie videogames, hinges on the most well known elements of the pheonix myth - that it is reborn from the firey consumption of it's old body & is essentially immortal.
Which makes some scientific sense, as, irrespective of medical care, our bodies still grow old and die; therefore a rebirth style of resurrection would seem to be a potential way to avoid that final decay and achieve immortality.
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