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 Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:46 pm
callmebutterfingers Since we're on the subject of definitions... Does anyone have a pretty clear idea of what an elcentric (is that the right word?) Pagan is? u mean ecclectic pagan... it's pretty much means a pagan that pulls from a lot of things/places. they gather their own mix & match religion to themselves.
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:49 pm
neko_usagichan callmebutterfingers Since we're on the subject of definitions... Does anyone have a pretty clear idea of what an elcentric (is that the right word?) Pagan is? u mean ecclectic pagan... it's pretty much means a pagan that pulls from a lot of things/places. they gather their own mix & match religion to themselves. That is correct. But with some people pulling from many different religious paths or ... mythos ends up in commited Culture rape. And that type of rape hurts not only you but the people that practice.. let's say hindu
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:03 pm
GuardianIceQueen neko_usagichan callmebutterfingers Since we're on the subject of definitions... Does anyone have a pretty clear idea of what an elcentric (is that the right word?) Pagan is? u mean ecclectic pagan... it's pretty much means a pagan that pulls from a lot of things/places. they gather their own mix & match religion to themselves. That is correct. But with some people pulling from many different religious paths or ... mythos ends up in commited Culture rape. And that type of rape hurts not only you but the people that practice.. let's say hindu LOL what's w/ everyone uing hinduism as an example today?!? is it a sign to me? XD
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:06 pm
neko_usagichan GuardianIceQueen neko_usagichan callmebutterfingers Since we're on the subject of definitions... Does anyone have a pretty clear idea of what an elcentric (is that the right word?) Pagan is? u mean ecclectic pagan... it's pretty much means a pagan that pulls from a lot of things/places. they gather their own mix & match religion to themselves. That is correct. But with some people pulling from many different religious paths or ... mythos ends up in commited Culture rape. And that type of rape hurts not only you but the people that practice.. let's say hindu LOL what's w/ everyone uing hinduism as an example today?!? is it a sign to me? XD I don't know, but it was the first thing that came to mind. Plus the way your dressed hun./
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:15 pm
GuardianIceQueen neko_usagichan GuardianIceQueen neko_usagichan callmebutterfingers Since we're on the subject of definitions... Does anyone have a pretty clear idea of what an elcentric (is that the right word?) Pagan is? u mean ecclectic pagan... it's pretty much means a pagan that pulls from a lot of things/places. they gather their own mix & match religion to themselves. That is correct. But with some people pulling from many different religious paths or ... mythos ends up in commited Culture rape. And that type of rape hurts not only you but the people that practice.. let's say hindu LOL what's w/ everyone uing hinduism as an example today?!? is it a sign to me? XD I don't know, but it was the first thing that came to mind. Plus the way your dressed hun./ lol ya i guess that makes sense XD
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:08 pm
callmebutterfingers I wonder how Hindus and Buddists would feel about being called Pagan... I guess it's their opinion that counts them in or out when it all comes down to it... I would dare say they wouldn't care. The word really holds no meaning for them. If you look at it in its root form then they would count but it is a very Anglo-Saxon concept and would carry no direct insult for them. It was really intended, like 'heretic,' to ostracize Jews and Muslims from an increasingly Christian world. In its modern use, meaning how 'we' use it, it wouldn't really apply to them at all. And I believe that would be fine with them too.
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:19 pm
celticfireguardian To me a Pagan can be defined as someone who is not Muslim, Jewish or Chrisitian, mainly because those are monotheistic religions and rather zealous that they have the one true god. Paganism is more polythesitc. Atheist believe in nothing and then there are people who consider themselves spiritualist and do not consider themselves part of any religion but who tend to have Paganist ideas. Religion is a very complex idea. Vodoun and Santeria are monotheistic religions, as are most African traditional and Afro-diasporic religions but I promise you that my Wesleyan grandmother would tell you very quickly that they are pagans (along with all those damn Catholics). Hinduism is actually monotheistic, in a rather complicated way. Buddhism has no deity at all - so are they pagan or atheist or not even a religion?
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:37 pm
neko_usagichan i call myself a pagan proudly. I have no intention of adding "neo" to anything i do or am. neo it the negative part to me. it scream noob in my face. & for the most part i call myself pagan because i' not sure of my path yet. at one point i tried calling myself a "eclectic pagan of celtic & egyptian influence w/ a wican base"...yea i'd rather just say pagan. cause celtic & egyptian...they're not my only interests. I happen to know one of the distinguished founders of Neo-Paganism and I can assure you there is nothing 'noob-ish' about him or the Neo-Pagan movement. The prefix Neo works on a couple of levels. First it is acknowledging that there are established definitions of the word pagan that do not jive with the current community - and by community I mean energy workers, rootworkers, healers, shamans, witches, magick users, occultist, etc. This prefix nixes the entire debate over Hindus and Buddhists and 'country-dwellers' and all that other stuff. Secondly. it face the fact that none of these traditions are really more than a hundred years old. All of the alleged history is reconstructed theory with very little hard proof. There are no unbroken lineages. Gardner, Sanders, Anderson, Crowley, (all of them), to one extent or another started with a self created mythos. The other thing that this label did is it brought several eclectic groups together under one banner which has afforded them legal rights and recognition that none of them would have or could have won on their own. The fact that you are able to freely discuss being pagan on an open forum today is in no small part due to this label and the founders of this movement. Just for clarification - I do not use the label Neo-Pagan myself but I do give props where props are due.
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Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:44 am
Sage Delaney neko_usagichan i call myself a pagan proudly. I have no intention of adding "neo" to anything i do or am. neo it the negative part to me. it scream noob in my face. & for the most part i call myself pagan because i' not sure of my path yet. at one point i tried calling myself a "eclectic pagan of celtic & egyptian influence w/ a wican base"...yea i'd rather just say pagan. cause celtic & egyptian...they're not my only interests. I happen to know one of the distinguished founders of Neo-Paganism and I can assure you there is nothing 'noob-ish' about him or the Neo-Pagan movement. The prefix Neo works on a couple of levels. First it is acknowledging that there are established definitions of the word pagan that do not jive with the current community - and by community I mean energy workers, rootworkers, healers, shamans, witches, magick users, occultist, etc. This prefix nixes the entire debate over Hindus and Buddhists and 'country-dwellers' and all that other stuff. Secondly. it face the fact that none of these traditions are really more than a hundred years old. All of the alleged history is reconstructed theory with very little hard proof. There are no unbroken lineages. Gardner, Sanders, Anderson, Crowley, (all of them), to one extent or another started with a self created mythos. The other thing that this label did is it brought several eclectic groups together under one banner which has afforded them legal rights and recognition that none of them would have or could have won on their own. The fact that you are able to freely discuss being pagan on an open forum today is in no small part due to this label and the founders of this movement. Just for clarification - I do not use the label Neo-Pagan myself but I do give props where props are due. oh i didn't mean anything like that w/ the noob comment...it's just that if u talk to a wanna-be pagan...they throw neo into everything. also when talking to non pagans they distort the neo into "oh ur just a hoshposh...not a real religion..." type stuff. same with newage. so i just don't use it to avoid that stuff.
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Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:38 am
GuardianIceQueen I personally do not like being called pagan. Its the whole thing of pagan being such a negative term. Now, if someone asks... What do I tell them? I could tell them many things. I'm a shaman or I could say that I am a green/kitchen witch. Or some people call themselves Neo-pagan Ah, now when you say 'neo-pagan' that actually narrows it down a bit. I DEFINATLY would NOT consiter Bhuddists or Hindis neo-pagans. And sence when is Vodu monotheistic???
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Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:55 am
Dragon_Witch_Woman GuardianIceQueen I personally do not like being called pagan. Its the whole thing of pagan being such a negative term. Now, if someone asks... What do I tell them? I could tell them many things. I'm a shaman or I could say that I am a green/kitchen witch. Or some people call themselves Neo-pagan Ah, now when you say 'neo-pagan' that actually narrows it down a bit. I DEFINATLY would NOT consiter Bhuddists or Hindis neo-pagans. And sence when is Vodu monotheistic??? Vodu is like Catholicism and African supersition into one. That is some heavy s**t. I was interested in that at one point. But just can't handle the cons for dealing with those Loa's.
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:00 am
GuardianIceQueen Dragon_Witch_Woman GuardianIceQueen I personally do not like being called pagan. Its the whole thing of pagan being such a negative term. Now, if someone asks... What do I tell them? I could tell them many things. I'm a shaman or I could say that I am a green/kitchen witch. Or some people call themselves Neo-pagan Ah, now when you say 'neo-pagan' that actually narrows it down a bit. I DEFINATLY would NOT consiter Bhuddists or Hindis neo-pagans. And sence when is Vodu monotheistic??? Vodu is like Catholicism and African supersition into one. That is some heavy s**t. I was interested in that at one point. But just can't handle the cons for dealing with those Loa's. Yeah, Vodu is actually the mixture of West African folk religion, Catholicism and Native American spiritualily. The African Lao are gods and spirits that are identified with Catholic Saints. Like, I THINK Damballah is identified with St. Michial....don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure thats right. I named two of my snakes after African Lao because they're West African snakes. xd Damballah-Wedo and Aida-Wedo, my two ball pythons. (Damballah passed away a while ago though)
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:44 pm
Dragon_Witch_Woman Yeah, Vodu is actually the mixture of West African folk religion, Catholicism and Native American spiritualily. The African Lao are gods and spirits that are identified with Catholic Saints. Like, I THINK Damballah is identified with St. Michial....don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure thats right. I named two of my snakes after African Lao because they're West African snakes. xd Damballah-Wedo and Aida-Wedo, my two ball pythons. (Damballah passed away a while ago though) Ooohh Ouch. I think you just put Yoruba, Haitian Voudon, New Orleans Voodoo, and Southern Hoodoo into one big pot and put the mixer on high. Starting with West Africa, particularly the region of Nigeria, the religion is not Voudon it is Yorbua. The spirits are not lwa they are orisha. The chief deity, and the one considered in our terms to be their 'god,' is Olodumare. This is the High God. The orisha are subordinate spirits, deputies of a sort, not gods. Most offerings and petitions etc. go to the orishas - it is considered inappropriate to petition Olodumare directly with the exception of matters of dire importance. Then there are the Egun, who are ancestral spirits and most commonly the household spirits among lay-people. Yoruba had its influence on Haitian Voudon via slave trade into the Dominican Republic but its Western influences are more strongly seen in Brazilian and Central American Santeria. Also in West Africa is Kongo, which is similar in its structure - the high god being Nzambi Mpungu - but places far more emphasis on ancestor work and concepts relating to the dead. There is also a much stronger belief in magic, and thus a stronger stigma against witchcraft (in the anthropological definition). While the religions are similar the cultures are rather different and the social structures are vastly different. This leads to different practices even when based on the same base beliefs. The dances, songs, and methods of the Kongo religion had a much stronger influence on Haitian Voudon. The blend of Yoruba, Kongo, and Catholicism (from the European land holders) converged to form Haitian Voudon. After the Haitian revolution many refugees fled to America and ended up in and around New Orleans. They took Voudon with them. This blended with the Kongo religion that was already there, via the slave trade, and Southern Hoodoo - a blend of European, Appalachian, and Native American folk magics (NOT a religion but a folk practice). This blend formed N.O. Voodoo (The spelling changed by people confusing it with Hoodoo. This is also where the spelling of lwa tends to become loa.) This is a totally different animal than Haitian Voudon. In Voudon and Voodoo God is absolutely GOD (Bondye) and the lwa are spirits, saints, deputies - however you want to call it, they are not gods. You consult the lwa because god is too big and too busy to worry with every little petition. In Yoruba the creator 'god' is Obatala. In Voudon and Voodoo Damballah-Wedo and Aida-Wedo are his counterparts (but they are LWA not gods). You have heard of the movie "The Serpent and The Rainbow" - well Damballah-Wedo and Aida-Wedo are the serpent and the rainbow and together they created the world. Damballah's saint is St. Patrick (think about the snakes) or Moses and Aida is Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception. Voodoo temples keep a snake to honor Damballah-Wedo - this is uniquely Voodoo and not seen in Haiti. Some important distinctions to make here - none of these are 'superstitions' they are religions. The exception being Hoodoo which is sympathetic magick and no more superstition than any other form of spellwork - in many cases even less so. This also completely skips the New Afrikan Vodun, which combines the orisha of the Yoruba and Vodu of the Ifa system. But this gets into a whole lot of whining history that goes back and forth and it gets rather complex. So that is for a different time.
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:28 am
Sage Delaney Dragon_Witch_Woman Yeah, Vodu is actually the mixture of West African folk religion, Catholicism and Native American spiritualily. The African Lao are gods and spirits that are identified with Catholic Saints. Like, I THINK Damballah is identified with St. Michial....don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure thats right. I named two of my snakes after African Lao because they're West African snakes. xd Damballah-Wedo and Aida-Wedo, my two ball pythons. (Damballah passed away a while ago though) Ooohh Ouch. I think you just put Yoruba, Haitian Voudon, New Orleans Voodoo, and Southern Hoodoo into one big pot and put the mixer on high. Starting with West Africa, particularly the region of Nigeria, the religion is not Voudon it is Yorbua. The spirits are not lwa they are orisha. The chief deity, and the one considered in our terms to be their 'god,' is Olodumare. This is the High God. The orisha are subordinate spirits, deputies of a sort, not gods. Most offerings and petitions etc. go to the orishas - it is considered inappropriate to petition Olodumare directly with the exception of matters of dire importance. Then there are the Egun, who are ancestral spirits and most commonly the household spirits among lay-people. Yoruba had its influence on Haitian Voudon via slave trade into the Dominican Republic but its Western influences are more strongly seen in Brazilian and Central American Santeria. Also in West Africa is Kongo, which is similar in its structure - the high god being Nzambi Mpungu - but places far more emphasis on ancestor work and concepts relating to the dead. There is also a much stronger belief in magic, and thus a stronger stigma against witchcraft (in the anthropological definition). While the religions are similar the cultures are rather different and the social structures are vastly different. This leads to different practices even when based on the same base beliefs. The dances, songs, and methods of the Kongo religion had a much stronger influence on Haitian Voudon. The blend of Yoruba, Kongo, and Catholicism (from the European land holders) converged to form Haitian Voudon. After the Haitian revolution many refugees fled to America and ended up in and around New Orleans. They took Voudon with them. This blended with the Kongo religion that was already there, via the slave trade, and Southern Hoodoo - a blend of European, Appalachian, and Native American folk magics (NOT a religion but a folk practice). This blend formed N.O. Voodoo (The spelling changed by people confusing it with Hoodoo. This is also where the spelling of lwa tends to become loa.) This is a totally different animal than Haitian Voudon. In Voudon and Voodoo God is absolutely GOD (Bondye) and the lwa are spirits, saints, deputies - however you want to call it, they are not gods. You consult the lwa because god is too big and too busy to worry with every little petition. In Yoruba the creator 'god' is Obatala. In Voudon and Voodoo Damballah-Wedo and Aida-Wedo are his counterparts (but they are LWA not gods). You have heard of the movie "The Serpent and The Rainbow" - well Damballah-Wedo and Aida-Wedo are the serpent and the rainbow and together they created the world. Damballah's saint is St. Patrick (think about the snakes) or Moses and Aida is Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception. Voodoo temples keep a snake to honor Damballah-Wedo - this is uniquely Voodoo and not seen in Haiti. Some important distinctions to make here - none of these are 'superstitions' they are religions. The exception being Hoodoo which is sympathetic magick and no more superstition than any other form of spellwork - in many cases even less so. This also completely skips the New Afrikan Vodun, which combines the orisha of the Yoruba and Vodu of the Ifa system. But this gets into a whole lot of whining history that goes back and forth and it gets rather complex. So that is for a different time. O_o omg...sensory overload...can't take in...all information...at once... burning_eyes D whoa...u really know your stuff!
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:33 am
Sage Delaney This also completely skips the New Afrikan Vodun, which combines the orisha of the Yoruba and Vodu of the Ifa system. But this gets into a whole lot of whining history that goes back and forth and it gets rather complex. So that is for a different time. Oops! Just realized there is a late night typing boo-boo here. This should say WINDING history not WHINING history. The typo makes it come off badly.
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