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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:18 pm
Good point. But either way, there'd still be Islamic radicals who want to kill Americans. It's been like that for decades.
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:17 pm
LordNeuf DanskiWolf You talking about the CIA's funding of Bin Laden in Afghanistan? Eh not quite. The Russians were against the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. USSR got involved in the civil war supporting the socialist government of Afghanistan, against radical extreme Islam, who started the civil war by resisting the Government's efforts to teach women how to read and beheaded several government agents... no really, that's how it all started. Long story short, the USSR lost. Many soldiers who were sent to fight in Afghanistan, as well as their families and the families of those lost in the war, became disillusioned to the Soviet cause, which led to the Soviet Union's collapse. If they had won, they would of beaten the Mujahideen, the civil war would be over and Al Qaeda would of never come to power. Even if the Soviets had still lost, it would have been possible that the Twin Towers would still be standing. During "Operation Cyclone" we gave aid to Pakistan who then passed it on to Afghanistan. I'm sure the Russians were eventually disillusioned to their cause, but we (the US of A) gave weapons and money that would eventually win the Soviet-Afghan war. If we would have continued helping Afghanistan after they won, they would be in a much better situation now. Instead, we backed out completely and then let Pakistan fund money to a resistance leader named Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. This man used our weapons to kill civilians and then used his power to promote his buddy Bin Laden. A man of strict Islamic ideology who was part of the reason Afghanistan fell to the Taliban. (Not al-Qaeda. We made that word up.) Hindsight is 20/20, but we created our own enemy.
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:45 pm
kingpinsqeezels During "Operation Cyclone" we gave aid to Pakistan who then passed it on to Afghanistan. I'm sure the Russians were eventually disillusioned to their cause, but we (the US of A) gave weapons and money that would eventually win the Soviet-Afghan war. If we would have continued helping Afghanistan after they won, they would be in a much better situation now. Instead, we backed out completely and then let Pakistan fund money to a resistance leader named Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. You watched "Charlie Wilson's War," didn't you?
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Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:56 pm
LordNeuf kingpinsqeezels During "Operation Cyclone" we gave aid to Pakistan who then passed it on to Afghanistan. I'm sure the Russians were eventually disillusioned to their cause, but we (the US of A) gave weapons and money that would eventually win the Soviet-Afghan war. If we would have continued helping Afghanistan after they won, they would be in a much better situation now. Instead, we backed out completely and then let Pakistan fund money to a resistance leader named Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. You watched "Charlie Wilson's War," didn't you? Well, it's one of my fave movies of all times, but I've also read up on the matter. I didn't get all that just from Tom Hanks. I'd assume it would have looked hypocritical for the US to simultaneously support Israel and help a bunch of Muslims who didn't much care for it's existence. Ah well, not much we can do about it now.
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:18 am
LordNeuf Many modern communists try to distance themselves from the atrocities committed by people like Kim (as in Kim Jong Il), Mao and Stalin to name a few. Communism killed 200 HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE and I'll I got was a lousy t-shirt. But enough about them... they aren't considered "Real Communists" anymore. Communism started under the Marxist ideals state that the trouble in society is when a small ruling class exploits the much larger working classes and the only way to protect the mass of people is to reduce the power of the ruling class and make the workers control the country. This was championed by Leon Trotsky and Vladimir Lenin. Who's only difference really was their name. They both lead the October Revolution, Lenin became Primere, Trotsky the Commisar of the people. However the Communist system, allowing only one party to rule, the worker's party which no one could challenge without being demonized as an imperialist. Because Communism countries are also Socialist countries, this led to the goverment owning and maintaining all means of production and industry. This removed the average citizen's means for self support. Free enterprise, entrepreneurship and innovation in industry was only allowed with the goverment's approval. The government set the prices on everything from hotel rooms, to telephone service to how much grain cost and how much you could have of these things. It didn't matter if they made a profit, it was for the people, feeding those who could not feed themselves, and even if they could feed themselves, the communist government made sure everyone got the same thing, nothing more, nothing less. To many people this sounds like a good thing. Heck this practices is even used in many Kibbutz in Israel. The workers of the farms work to support themselves, all get paid equally, all live in the same conditions, and all have to support the society. HOWEVER... you can choose to leave a kibbutz Communism as a government, has the party pick who will rule the party by a collective of party members who have shown distinction to the communist cause. True believers electing other true believers without people being allowed to vote. This leads ALL Communist Governments down the road to Totalitarianism. When the Government not only controls all the industry, but also how families can be structured. With knowledge of how much food, land and supplies could be allocated, communist governments can control the amount of the population by allowing parents only one or two children each. How do they control that? you may ask? Well they do run the hospitals... they have access to everyone's records. "You have three kids? Fine... We're only gonna allow you to collect food for two of them, and only two of them will go to school... choose wisely." Everyone gets only what they need, no more, no less as dictated by the government. Fall outside the parameters and you're cut off. And that's only ONE thing I have against Communism. I await your rebuttal.  lol I love this. Stalin and Moa hated each other. While, Stalin claimed he was a Leninist-Marxist he was like that as Trotsky was. lol Stalin was what we call a Stalinist, which is a socialist dictatorship. With a strong central government with of course Stalin at the head. He carried his own thoughts, mainly with the ideas of Lenin after failed revolts in Germany as of 1918. The CCCP was left in a process of between a capitalist and socialist setting. Where a government was bound to with drawn into society, though only Lenin really was close to this and even he failed, though in order to do such a thing you have to have the entire world or large areas, which explains why many anarchist and communist carried out attacks on governments in the 1920's in Europe. Should we cite how many people die in the hands of the capitalist dollar and still is? Because we never really had a actually capitalist society but you guys still take pride in consumerism among wastefulness, based upon a dollar and not upon energy units, but hell who the ******** cares, you feel nice in the new car. All capitalist can do is use money for products without encountering for energy costs its not about the energy more about the material and the cheaper for seller the better. Communism is not about a single party rule, your a total fool if you compare a single event to a communist party of another of a country. But hell we see this in a capitalist government were a single party over rules another. Right? Right? So a communist society is collective? Well is that not the point? It doesn't mean that it will lead to a single party, and all I see you is comprising CCCP all the time, and think that works. After Stalin died, Khrushchev had many things to worry about, the Cold War stripped the country of materials as did World War II in rebuilding the country, and everything was forced into a rate of decline, becuase everything was set, which made shortages on materials to the cold war, if a government doesn't do it private company makes artificial shortages to earn money.
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:25 am
LordNeuf DanskiWolf she goes on some rant about how America is "biased against left-wing countries". Opposing totalitarian regimes makes you "biased against left-wing countries"apparently... stare Well... it is the Truman Doctrine. To contain communism and spread western democracy. It shaped American politics for the next 30 years. We spent hundreds of billions of dollars on foreign aid and propping up collapsing governments to make sure they didn't go communist. One primary reason we won the cold war is that we could shovel money into the fire faster and with more efficiency than the soviets could. Not everyone agreed with this plan, but to be fair the soviets did the same thing. Any country that had a grudge against America or Western Style Governments got a great deal on soviet military arms. Which is why Soviet Era Katusha rockets kept flying out of Lebanon into Israel for quite some time. It was old but it still worked, soviet military tech was cheap to produce, easy to maintain and quite rugged. Meanwhile Iran's fleet of F-14s they got from America hasn't flown since 1990-something since they ran out of spare parts. So basically, Americans would give aid to democratically elected governments while Russia would give aid and arms to anyone who wanted them. That's not to say that Russia only supported Communist countries, they would also sell arms to anyone who couldn't afford the American arms. Before, during and after the fall of communism the world market was flooded with Soviet Arms. They would sell openly and on the black market. It's one of the reasons we have a lot of private armies, terrorist cells and rebel forces in the world armed with Soviet Tech. Ever seen a Mozambique Flag? It represents the 3 things that brought freedom to their country from Portuguese and South African influence. Knowledge, Hard Working Farmers...  And AK-47s.  lol We did nothing other than watch as the country fell into decline as they could not keep up with demands that was set back to World War II. They outstripped there needs of their military and the demands of social life. America and the CCCP fought proxy wars with each other. Using Africa, South-East Asia, Latin America, Western Europe as the battlefields. We did not do direct fighting per say in actual country conflict. Which is why Latin America hates us so much. America did not better as the CCCP did and both supported regimes that was repressive to the population, for the goal of attacking the other side.
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:29 am
LordNeuf DanskiWolf You talking about the CIA's funding of Bin Laden in Afghanistan? Eh not quite. The Russians were against the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. USSR got involved in the civil war supporting the socialist government of Afghanistan, against radical extreme Islam, who started the civil war by resisting the Government's efforts to teach women how to read and beheaded several government agents... no really, that's how it all started. Long story short, the USSR lost. Many soldiers who were sent to fight in Afghanistan, as well as their families and the families of those lost in the war, became disillusioned to the Soviet cause, which led to the Soviet Union's collapse. If they had won, they would of beaten the Mujahideen, the civil war would be over and Al Qaeda would of never come to power. Help with the CIA and Regan who wanted to make Afghanistan their Vietnam, who used them as another proxy war. The CCCP needed Afghanistan for the mineral wealth they could get right away, since they needed in fast, which in terms coasted more than they hoped and speed up their downfall.
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:01 am
Angry Arm Chair Help with the CIA and Regan who wanted to make Afghanistan their Vietnam, who used them as another proxy war. The CCCP needed Afghanistan for the mineral wealth they could get right away, since they needed in fast, which in terms coasted more than they hoped and speed up their downfall.  Outside the mineral rights and opium production, Afghanistan was rebelling against their socialist government and the USSR went to defend it. Now mind you, the Soviet Union made a BIG deal of their military. They were portrayed as the great liberators, saviors of the common man, defenders of the People's Republic. The Army and Navy were the heroes of the Soviets and was something honorable to aspire to be part of. Then came Afghanistan... then came Perestroika, the social and political changes spearheaded by Mikael Gorbachev. Then came glasnost, freedom of the Press. Before all media matters were censored to prevent the government from looking bad. Now the press would report on what the troops were doing, how many were dying and what they were fighting for, without any bias or fear or reprisal. This caused the people as a whole to become disillusioned with the Soviet way of life. Kind of like what is happening with the whole War in Iraq. Bush has an approval rating in the mid to high teens and not many people think he's a smart cookie. But there's not going to be a revolution here because of Bush. Jan 20th 2009, he's out. No ifs ands or buts, he's done. Soviets didn't have term limits or free elections. They wanted a change in the regime. The Soviet Union tried to appease their people, lifting the iron curtain. Giving back control to the countries they "liberated" in World War Two to their people. This caused The republics within the soviet union, such as Georgia and Estonia to openly revolt against Russia. This led the Soviet Union to send troops within it's borders to lead strikes against rebel leaders. The news of this leaked out, people became more angry, more provinces revolted, more crackdowns by the government. Gorbachev tries to restructure the Soviet Union, allowing free elections, to have a secondary government elected by the people to represent them in the politburo. The Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, and the people elected Boris Yeltsin. At the end of the day, specifically August 20th 1991, the army itself had had enough of Gorbachev and lead a coup. Tanks started shelling the Russian houses of Government. Yeltsin condemned the Coup, and rallied the people not to allow the military to drag us back to the days of Stalin. The coup failed, lacking the will of the people, not even the Russians wanted to be communist anymore. The Soviet Union dissolved and then the transition period began, which they're still in. Open markets with developed countries selling imported goods to Russia, which was both economically and politically a 3rd world country. Supply and Demand took control of the economy, no more fixed prices. The Russian people realized they needed quality goods and needed to mass produce them themselves or else save wages for 3 months to buy their children a Lego play set for Xmas. Yes the fall of the soviet union was a difficult period, but now they have learned how to be in a competitive market, get a work ethic that requires self dependency not communal support and above all, the pride of making something better for yourself than what your parents were given. For all these reasons I approve the end of the Soviet Union and condemn communism as a faulty, unproductive, crippling government and economic system.
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:59 pm
Okay... Obviously I wasn't going to know much about CIA and the Taliban and stuff. Because I'm British and we leave "liberating" countries to you guys. We're just a source of highly intelligent and adaptive soldiers with cool accents. But I am severely confused with all the talk of CCCP (who are??) and stuff. You obviously learnt about the USSR in school, we only learn the first 40 years of the USSR, and the rest is European history. Skipping back to the Mujahideen: They were aided by British SAS soldiers. We got involved because we were worried that the Russians were getting too close to all that oil just lying below them. So if we hadn't gotten involved, the Russians might have won, we might not be in Afganistan right now, and the Two Towers would still be an amazing view. Sorry? Oh yeah, and that oil? If the Russians got hold of it, they would have even more leverage over America, so America might have lost the Cold War too. Jeez we messed up big time!
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:06 pm
Behatzlacha-S But I am severely confused with all the talk of CCCP (who are??) and stuff. You obviously learnt about the USSR in school, we only learn the first 40 years of the USSR, and the rest is European history. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics abbreviated in English is USSR Союз Советских Социалистических Республик is USSR in Russian, abbreviated CCCP and is pronounced Soyuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:12 pm
Behatzlacha-S We got involved because we were worried that the Russians were getting too close to all that oil just lying below them. So if we hadn't gotten involved, the Russians might have won, we might not be in Afganistan right now, and the Two Towers would still be an amazing view. There's not a lot of oil in Afghanistan, at least that's easy to get to, however the Truman Doctorate always predicted the "Domino Effect." saying The Soviet Union was an ever expanding imperial nation, and if one state fell to Communism, the neighboring countries would too. So the thought goes, that if Afghanistan fell and was annexed by the Soviet Empire, then they would go after Iran, then Iraq, then Kuwait, then Saudi Arabia until they controlled all the oil production. Which may or may not of happened.
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:25 pm
Quote: Which may or may not of happened. Too true. Let's face it, the Domino effect and all of that is really all a succession of chance. A single stray bullet could kill a man who was going to kill another man, who will now to kill another man, and so on and so forth until a war is lost on the fact that that single bullet hit him...
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:18 pm
LordNeuf However the Communist system, allowing only one party to rule, the worker's party which no one could challenge without being demonized as an imperialist. Imperialist. Actually, there are NO parties. "Communist parties" piss me off. In Communism the people rule themselves be voting for what they think is right, therefore there is no need for political parties.Because Communism countries are also Socialist countries, this led to the goverment owning and maintaining all means of production and industry. This removed the average citizen's means for self support. Free enterprise, entrepreneurship and innovation in industry was only allowed with the goverment's approval. The government set the prices on everything from hotel rooms, to telephone service to how much grain cost and how much you could have of these things. It didn't matter if they made a profit, it was for the people, feeding those who could not feed themselves, and even if they could feed themselves, the communist government made sure everyone got the same thing, nothing more, nothing less. Communism is supposed to make sure everyone has enough. What about those people in America who work mulitiple jobs and STILL don't have enough?To many people this sounds like a good thing. Heck this practices is even used in many Kibbutz in Israel. The workers of the farms work to support themselves, all get paid equally, all live in the same conditions, and all have to support the society. HOWEVER... you can choose to leave a kibbutz Communism as a government, has the party pick who will rule the party by a collective of party members who have shown distinction to the communist cause. True believers electing other true believers without people being allowed to vote. That is ******** up, and violates Marxist law.This leads ALL Communist Governments down the road to Totalitarianism. When the Government not only controls all the industry, but also how families can be structured. With knowledge of how much food, land and supplies could be allocated, communist governments can control the amount of the population by allowing parents only one or two children each. How do they control that? you may ask? Well they do run the hospitals... they have access to everyone's records. "You have three kids? Fine... We're only gonna allow you to collect food for two of them, and only two of them will go to school... choose wisely." Everyone gets only what they need, no more, no less as dictated by the government. Fall outside the parameters and you're cut off. Restricting childbirth is not exactly right. Another example of Stalinist/Maoist assholes. If you have mulitple children they should ALL be taken care of.And that's only ONE thing I have against Communism. I await your rebuttal. You take Stalist/ Maoist ideals and think they represent all communism. They don't. Your arguments do not apply to Marxism, which is my ideology.
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:22 pm
darkphoenix1247 Are you aware I started a topic right beneath you with the same thing? blaugh I am well aware that the USSR and China were/are not actual Communist states as theory dictates. But, I still feel that Communism is a stupid idea. Not only is so unrealistically impractical (since people are greedy and will never feel equal to each other. Yes, I have a cynical but realistic view on human nature), but also not a great idea to begin with. People will never be able to function without some sort of government/rules since there are too many that just don't care. Furthermore, with Communism there is no incentive to strive beyond what you're supposed to do. For example, Person A with an IQ of 300 is designated to be Nameless Factory Worker 1. Person B with an IQ of 65 is designated to become a farmer. While Person A would be able to improve efficiency by 300% percent, he can't. I have a lot more to say, so I'll edit this later, but I have to log off. In Communism they would do what they want, so if A wants to farm, he farms.
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:23 pm
DanskiWolf I love it when commies say "bla bla wasn't really communist." When the USSR did something good, they take pride in it. When it did something bad, they'll say "Well, the Soviet Union wasn't really communist". Fact is, no country will ever be communist (small c) because it's an impossible anarchist utopia only a hippie would believe in. But if Communist (capital C) states are anything to go by, I'll take eeeeevil bourgeoise kapitalism any day of the week. My grandpa was a member of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Now he votes for the centre-right Coalition. Just goes to show, he never believed in that far-left bull anyway. xd I have pride in the USSR? I wasn't aware of that.
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