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 Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:45 pm
hypnocrown That's a great thought Berz! However, I've seen on TV that some tribes don't even have words, they just have sounds. Maybe I was reading into the whole thing wrongly but, I do recall how there was this tribe of aborigines who speak by producing some weird sounds with their throats. That's still a language and having words. They just form the sounds that form the words differently than most other languages. A language can be made of anything, ultimately. The very fact that we can write stuff to each other proves it. As we read, we translate a cypher for our native language, writing, back into our native language. That's why the brain shows more activity when it reads than when it listens. Quote: Did you know that, according to Ripley's Believe it or not, the egg came first? That's cuz they say that a certain chicken that was the closest thing to the actual chicken of today, laid an egg that turned out to contain the evolved form of their time. That's how the first chickens as we know came to be. eek Except that the parent pre-chickens had to have the same genetic material that ended up in the egg in order to pass it on at all and would have thus been identified as the same species. ^_~ Berz.
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:07 am
Hypno, Berz is right. Sounds still convey message. If my mum asks me to do something and I give an exasperated "ugh", I am telling her I am annoyed and don't want to do it.
My cat cries when he greets me, or wants attention or food.
Late at night when I am watching TV, he'll come in and go "meaow", so I turn and say "hello Theo" and he looks at me and he'll lift his tail up. To me that's pretty much saying "hi, I'm home" and then even physically he's saying "can I have some attention please?"
Same with the dog. When Benji is barking unnecessarily around a particular part of the room, say near a sofa, at first we might be ignorant as to what he's trying to say. He'll look at the spot as well. So, I get down on my knees, have a look under the sofa and one of his toys has been pushed under there and he knows he can't get it, but we can get it for him.
Any form of communication is "language". You know of body language, so why not language that comes in the form of sounds rather than words?
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:10 pm
That was part of my point. But also that, ultimately, words are made of sounds.
Berz.
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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:56 pm
I'm still not convinced. A sound made with our fingers (I forgot what it's called) it's pretty much the same as sound made with the throat. Are musical notes "words" too? Next thing I'm gonna hear is that anything can be a word. rolleyes
I do think I know what yer saying but, a sound we make has meaning because of the special emphasis we put into it. Without that it doesn't mean anything, does it?
BTW, I believe that you first have to think about how to say something, then create the right word to say it. So it wouldn't be like the chicken/egg thing. And even that, I'm not so sure about that explanation anyhow (Ripley's or yers my dear Berz). mrgreen
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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:57 pm
hypnocrown I'm still not convinced. A sound made with our fingers (I forgot what it's called) it's pretty much the same as sound made with the throat. Are musical notes "words" too? Next thing I'm gonna hear is that anything can be a word. rolleyes Actually, anything can be a word. It's for that very reason that we can have a written language (because, really, what is a letter other than a strange drawing with no real meaning of its own?) or sign language. This idea means that we can have Morse Code and pictographs. It means we can play Pictionary and Charades. And, yes, music is a language; you know a sad tune from a happy tune and a serious one from a silly one. A language isn't a language until there is a meaning behind the method of communication. Until then, it is just gobbledygook. But as soon as there is meaning behind it, it is a language and a word is formed. It doesn't matter whether it is a verbal language. As soon as there is meaning behind it, it's a language. We humans even have an involuntary language built into our bodies. When a person blushes, you know they are embarrassed. When they turn pale, you know they do not feel well. There are even tell-tale signs if someone is lying. Berz.
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:45 am
Oh come on Hypno, morse code is a language for goodness sake.
I can show I am angry by banging my fist on a table without SAYING a word. Clicking the fingers has a few meanings like physically expressing an instant. For example: "and like that" *clicks fingers* "everything exploded into chaos." There's still meaning behind it.
I find a lot of meaning in most music. Music can convey messages just as easily as words can. The type of music that's played conveys a particular type of mood. That's still language because it makes us "feel" something. It provokes a reaction of some kind. Hearing rap, r&b or hiphop on the radio aggravates me and makes me want to turn it off (and most of the time I do), whereas 80s music like "I won't let the sun go down on me" by Nik Kershaw holds a lot of meaning and the music makes me feel uplifted and nostalgic.
Instruments are also used to convey messages, like the horn used in fox hunting. I absolutely detest bloodsports, but they blew a horn to convey another party that they've found a fox and are in pursuit. I believe tribal peoples use instruments to convey messages as well.
What about body language? That rarely requires sound at all. If you stand with your arms folded tightly across your chest, you're closed off and don't want to be approached. If you stand relaxed with your arms by your sides, you're open and are happy to be approached. Most communication is done through body language when dealing with someone face to face anyway.
Your turn. Try to prove us wrong again.
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:42 am
Really? Maybe I should make up a language that uses nothing but farting, ha-ha! rofl Berz said it all, as long as there's meaning behind something, I can understand that it could be a language but, there's no meaning behind a lot of things and that's what I was trying to say. I mean, when you hear the rain and thunder, it doesn't mean that the sky or the planet are trying to talk to us, does it? I can sure understand the rest cuz facial expressions and body language can be understood just fine. Hey Mel! I don't think that Morse Code is a language, I think it's a way to communicate an existing language cuz, it sort of translates letters into tap sounds, doesn't it? I mean, we already have to know about letters in order to understand them, right? After all, if you don't know how to read or write, how can you understand morse code in the first place? I suppose it wouldn't be that hard but still... Computer language comes to mind right now. As in, you know that it is made up of ones and zeros, right? Well, the computers understand that for a reason. I'm not sure how it works but I bet you that only typing a one or a zero can't mean anything, can it? I get how an instrument can be used to convey messages but they have to be understood by another person, otherwise how can you relay a message at all? By this I mean that if I burp and it has meaning, but I don't share the meaning with anyone, how are you supposed to know what I'm trying to say? I must agree with you on the bloodsport thing, I hate that some people hunt for sport. What's the deal with that? I get how anyone can hunt out of hunger but, to kill just for pleasure? That just goes beyond wrong, I think it's really lame! And you can quote me on that. BTW, I wasn't trying to prove you gals wrong, I was just trying to get you to explain how certain things can be language in the first place. 3nodding
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Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:02 pm
hypnocrown Really? Maybe I should make up a language that uses nothing but farting, ha-ha! rofl Berz said it all, as long as there's meaning behind something, I can understand that it could be a language but, there's no meaning behind a lot of things and that's what I was trying to say. I mean, when you hear the rain and thunder, it doesn't mean that the sky or the planet are trying to talk to us, does it? I can sure understand the rest cuz facial expressions and body language can be understood just fine. Hey Mel! I don't think that Morse Code is a language, I think it's a way to communicate an existing language cuz, it sort of translates letters into tap sounds, doesn't it? I mean, we already have to know about letters in order to understand them, right? After all, if you don't know how to read or write, how can you understand morse code in the first place? I suppose it wouldn't be that hard but still... Computer language comes to mind right now. As in, you know that it is made up of ones and zeros, right? Well, the computers understand that for a reason. I'm not sure how it works but I bet you that only typing a one or a zero can't mean anything, can it? I get how an instrument can be used to convey messages but they have to be understood by another person, otherwise how can you relay a message at all? By this I mean that if I burp and it has meaning, but I don't share the meaning with anyone, how are you supposed to know what I'm trying to say? I must agree with you on the bloodsport thing, I hate that some people hunt for sport. What's the deal with that? I get how anyone can hunt out of hunger but, to kill just for pleasure? That just goes beyond wrong, I think it's really lame! And you can quote me on that. BTW, I wasn't trying to prove you gals wrong, I was just trying to get you to explain how certain things can be language in the first place. 3nodding
If these things aren't languages, what are they?
And what you were saying about the sky and thunder. Yes it is conveying a message. It's saying "there's a clash of hot and cold air up here, so there's going to be a storm, brace yourselves". It's not consciously doing it, but it's still a message nonetheless. No, it's not a language specifically as we read the definition of the word, but it's still language in a sense.
If I stand in front of you with my arms folded tightly, as mentioned before, I am saying "I'm not comfortable with you or the situation." If I stand in front of you with my arms by my sides in a casual position, I am saying "I'm open, content with the situation and am willing to chat or discuss."
As with farting...well, you know, it depends. Unfortunately, if we didn't blow off every once in a while and didn't belch, then we'd explode. That's what happens to birds if you feed them things like bicarbonate of soda. I don't know about all birds, but pigeons and seagulls cannot belch or fart, so they will explode if they get a build up of gas inside. However, when it's necessary and someone has an odd sense of humour then there CAN be a message in it. It would make some people cringe, sigh or roll their eyes, but it can be saying "I am comfortable with myself, better out than in." If they pull a face or post whilst doing it, then they're trying to inject a comedy factor into it.
This will tell you a lot - Wikipedia - Language. If my comments above and that link can't convince you, I don't think anything will.
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:26 pm
That's good Mel. I was wondering how you could send a message through telegraph to a deaf person, he-he. mrgreen But yes, they sure are languages. I'm still not sure on the "sky & thunder" thing. For all we know, the planet is saying, get out of me, I am so sick of you humans always contaminating! lol I can get that! Have you ever taken pics while doing any of those things? I mean, "arms folded tightly" and whatnot..? Ha-ha! Yeah. As long as there is something behind it that we already know like you said, things can be understood. But people have to know what they mean otherwise they won't be understood at all. And like I said above, I didn't need any convincing. I am glad you came to explain your points further. That's all I wanted! BTW, has anyone ever wondered why we say "good bye instead of "bad bye" even when we're having a bad day? mrgreen
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:21 pm
hypnocrown Really? Maybe I should make up a language that uses nothing but farting, ha-ha! rofl That sounds like something Douglas Adams would have written about In fact... I think he did... Berz.
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:10 pm
I've been taking cultural anthropology classes for the last year, and a big part of that is linguistics. All language is a series of symbols representing an idea or a thing. The reason there are so many languages is because they are created within a society to explain things that need explaining. Basically, there's been a hypothesis floating around since the '20s or '30s saying that language is the basis for the way we think and behave. Linguistics gets more complicated the more you go into it, and sadly I haven't done very much work on the subject. I'd be willing to go into the basics if anyone wants me to though smile
One thing that's always intrigued me is the word "mother". Every language I've every studied has a very similar word. Even in Korea (a language that's about as far from the Indo-European language family as you can get), the word is "oma". It's just a really cool mystery for me right now, but hopefully I'll get to the point where I understand it someday.
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Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:53 pm
hypnocrown That's good Mel. I was wondering how you could send a message through telegraph to a deaf person, he-he. mrgreen But yes, they sure are languages. I'm still not sure on the "sky & thunder" thing. For all we know, the planet is saying, get out of me, I am so sick of you humans always contaminating! lol I can get that! Have you ever taken pics while doing any of those things? I mean, "arms folded tightly" and whatnot..? Ha-ha! Yeah. As long as there is something behind it that we already know like you said, things can be understood. But people have to know what they mean otherwise they won't be understood at all. And like I said above, I didn't need any convincing. I am glad you came to explain your points further. That's all I wanted! BTW, has anyone ever wondered why we say "good bye instead of "bad bye" even when we're having a bad day? mrgreen
We usually DO understand what all of these things mean. It's normally automatic. The only languages we really have to focus on learning are those that are spoken, or those that are like morse code where you have to learn the code in order to understand it. In a way, you need to learn how to understand animals by observing "their" body language and the sounds they make.
When a cat is purring, it's happy, whereas if the tail is swishing around it generally means "I'm in a bad mood, leave me alone". When a dog's tail is between its legs, it's unhappy or worried, but if it's up and wagging back and forth it's happy. That's still language.
I've never really thought about the 'goodbye' thing to be honest. Why not look that one up? smile
I usually just say "bye" regardless.
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:35 pm
Every so often, I find myself mulling over one word or another that most people take for granted--in an almost Ax of The Animorphs kind of way--and wondering how those exact characters and those exact sounds came together to have that meaning--I mean, it could have been any sequence of grunts, right?
Example: the word 'and'
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:53 am
"And" doesn't sound like a grunt though does it?
If you said "and" in the form of a grunt, it'd probably be something like "uh?" which can also mean "I don't know" or "I don't understand" (aka, huh?)
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:36 pm
Forgive me, I should have left it at general sounds.
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