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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:06 pm
ShadowIce As is pointed out by WatersMoon110's situation, people are willing to break the law to get what they want. I am honestly afraid that making abortion illegal would do nothing more except possibly making situations like WatersMoon110's more common. I hope not. No one should ever have to go through that. But no one should get pregnant by their abuser, either. And abusing children is already illegal. I don't think that making abortion illegal would keep people from trying to force other people to get abortions. And I don't think that keeping abortion legal keeps people from using dangerous abortive methods (though I feel it does lower the amount somewhat), or from forcing people to get abortions (with dangerous methods or safer methods). I wish I knew what the solution to this issue was, but I don't. ShadowIce But as ryokomayuka said, this is all speculation. Exactly. We don't know what will, or won't, work to keep anyone from being forced into an abortion. I think that counseling (alone) might help, and waiting periods (24 or 48 hours).
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:01 pm
Well, a long time ago, in a forum I said something or other, made some argument, and months later a woman PMed me to thank me because she was on the fence about whether or not to have an abortion and my argument convinced her not to, and she was really glad she kept her baby.
Terje is much more pro-life now. Though, where he comes from, abortion isn't legal nearly as long as it is here and he's disgusted that it's legal so long over here. He was never exactly pro-choice in the sense that we mean it, because he only supported abortion in certain instances, but the instances he meant didn't exactly make him pro-life. He made it VERY clear to me that he wouldn't have sex with me if I was planning on having an abortion if I got pregnant, for any reason less than my health or life.
My friends...well, we don't talk about it much. They're all in college, and a lot of them are pro-choice because they took certain classes and their professors sort of pounded it into their heads. One actually threatened to fail my friend for refusing to write a paper on the benefits of legalized abortion. She stuck to her guns though ^^ One of them, though, started trying to convert me after taking a philosophy course where she was "enlightened" about how wonderful legalized abortion was, so she tried debating me, and it didn't really go so well and in the end she decided I was right, but that was more of a, she was pro-life, then pro-choice, then pro-life again.
See, I don't think waiting periods or counseling will keep people from going through with coerced abortion. Whatever is threatening them into going for one won't just go away after 24-48 hours. As for counseling, even alone, what would possess you to tell them it's coerced? You're talking to a total stranger, and you're obviously so scared that you're willing to have a surgical procedure that you might even feel is killing your baby done to you. It might help some people, but I really don't think it will help most people. Unless you can be guaranteed that you'll be safe from that threat, then are you really going to risk it if you've come so far?
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:48 pm
lymelady Well, a long time ago, in a forum I said something or other, made some argument, and months later a woman PMed me to thank me because she was on the fence about whether or not to have an abortion and my argument convinced her not to, and she was really glad she kept her baby. I'm glad that she made the choice she felt was best for her. lymelady My friends...well, we don't talk about it much. They're all in college, and a lot of them are pro-choice because they took certain classes and their professors sort of pounded it into their heads. One actually threatened to fail my friend for refusing to write a paper on the benefits of legalized abortion. She stuck to her guns though ^^ One of them, though, started trying to convert me after taking a philosophy course where she was "enlightened" about how wonderful legalized abortion was, so she tried debating me, and it didn't really go so well and in the end she decided I was right, but that was more of a, she was pro-life, then pro-choice, then pro-life again. I think that is a total abuse of power on those professor's parts. I have never had a professor that tried to get me to believe in their political beliefs, and I wouldn't respect one that tried. I would probably call them out on it, just because of how uncomfortable it made me (even if I agreed with their political beliefs). It is totally uncalled for, and I don't feel a good professor would do such a thing, no matter how passionate they were about something. lymelady See, I don't think waiting periods or counseling will keep people from going through with coerced abortion. Whatever is threatening them into going for one won't just go away after 24-48 hours. No - but my hope is that they would maybe be able to use that time to find some help to get them out of that situation. I know it isn't always possible, but do I hope for such a thing. Also, I think that waiting periods give some women more time to think about their choice, and maybe change their mind (which I think is the primary purpose of such a thing). lymelady As for counseling, even alone, what would possess you to tell them it's coerced? You're talking to a total stranger, and you're obviously so scared that you're willing to have a surgical procedure that you might even feel is killing your baby done to you. It might help some people, but I really don't think it will help most people. Unless you can be guaranteed that you'll be safe from that threat, then are you really going to risk it if you've come so far? I disagree. The entire point of the counseling is to try to determine if they are being coerced or not, and they try to train their counselors really well how to do so. If someone is good at their job (which isn't always the case, unfortunately) they can tell the difference between someone being forced to do something, and someone who actually wants to do so. Of course, it doesn't always work, but that is the reason to require it. I don't feel it is fair for anyone to blame the clinics that there are some people so horrible that they would try to force someone to have an abortion. I think that the blame rests on the horrible people forcing their will on pregnant women.
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:38 am
I don't get into the abortion debate with my friends - one of them is vehemently pro-life (although her argument mostly consists of "IT'S KILLING IT'S WRONG") and the rest are sort of meh choicers. I own the soapbox. I'm really interested in politics and the news and all sorts of debates (although I know most about abortion). Honestly I think it would be worse in a pro-life world than in a pro-choice one and that's where most of my convictions for choice come from. I've never been really pro-life and I'm more comfortable with choice. But everyone is different and I do understand at least some of the feelings of lifers.
I did turn my younger sister however. The rest of my immediate family are pro-choice anyway, and so is my boyfriend.
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:02 am
ShadowIce Sometimes I talk about abortion with my Pro-Life friends, but not all that often. Part of the reason is that I'm always a little nervous that I'll say something to piss them off so much that they won't want to be my friend anymore. This is just one of those topics that you have to be careful about talking to friends about (at least from the Pro-Choice perspective; I can't speak for Pro-Lifers) because there is so much emotion involved. I mean, if someone thinks you're helping to kill babies, that has the potential to make friendship awkward.
I always think it's useful to seperate the person from their political views. It's different when it's politicians, and you're deciding who you want to run the country, and such, you can feel free to hate-on all you want. Politicians are people too, I know, they're just easier to hate, because they kind of have to be divisive, don't they?
Anyway. But when it's your friends, I feel that political positions matter a lot less. If you can co-exist as people while both understanding that you may have different views, that shouldn't effect your friendship.
I don't know that all pro-lifers are as enlightened about it, but I suspect the ones this subforum are wink heart
I discuss stuff with my friend Stevie (also Christoph's girlfriend) about abortion and she's pro-choice. We mostly agree to disagree, but it was rather amusing one time when me and my friend Josh were both saying stuff on the pro-life side of abortion, while Stevie was attempting to defend the pro-choice side (she doesn't have a lot of practice arguing abortion, however). She called over Greg, this guy that was living with them at the time, and she asked if he was pro-life or pro-choice. He said he was pro-life, and we were both like, "Way to go, brotha." XD
I'm mostly just so into it when talking about it that I usually strengthen the convictions of my pro-life friends, and make the pro-choice ones groan with frustation, and then proceed to Pass the chips. Most of my friends are stoners, so we get over stupid stuff quickly because we forget. XD
Yeah, I know, It's late and I thought it was funny. Sorry I rambled. heart
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:24 am
Has anyone else noticed how much we sound like vampires, what with all of this turning and whatnot?
I do agree with you, Adrian. I always separate the people from the politics. It's not hard for me to remember that we disagree, but in the end, we're both trying to make the world a better place, we just disagree greatly on what would do it. It's hard to be mad at someone who wants to help people.
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:37 pm
xd Yeah, just a little.
Yeah, I definitely don't talk abortion with my friends much, unless they are people I know are Pro-Life or people I know are Pro-Choice and will debate it civilly with me. Because I often get reactions from Pro-Choicers who find out that I'm Pro-Life where they get violently angry at me, and say all sorts of nasty things even though we are good friends. It's just such an emotional issue for both sides.
But I talk politics with my friends all the time, aside from abortion. 3nodding Because you don't get told you hate women because of your stance on the war in Iraq. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:50 am
Out of all the friends I've ever had, there have been maybe two who are pro-life. And I don't even like them anymore. neutral
I've never converted anyone, but I've pwned them in debates. domokun
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:47 am
I talked to a friend of mine who is pro-choice last night. We're good friends but we'd never discussed politics before. I'm kind of the same age as her, but a little older.
We had the most civil debate I think I've ever had where we calmly and quietly listened to the other person's side with patience. I was proud of her and me because there was definitely opportunity for the discussion to get out of hand but it never did.
It was more of a rough discussion when we got to the death penalty, which she highly agrees with, and I oppose. I'm happy that Canada doesn't have the death penalty, she isn't.
I've never met anyone who I've disagreed with so much that I get along with so well. xd That was my attempt to seperate the person from the political views as much as I can, and it got emotional.
We were also just girl-talking, so you know how it is sometimes. :3
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:01 pm
McPhee So, do you discuss abortion with your friends sometimes? Have you changed any of their minds?
Hmm... I did once get a message from a Choicer (I wish I remembered his screenname) who said he really liked what I wrote when asked about the subject, which surprised me a whole lot. I didn't convert him, but he seemed very nice and we got along and talked about other things that are more fun. 3nodding
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:34 am
I discuss it with my friend who is pro-life.
She is pro-life completely, I'm probably considered more pro-choice because I want abortion to stay legal, although I'm not sure if I would choose it myself, the bit I usually get yelled at for is because the reason I wouldn't choose one isn't because I think it's wrong to choose one life over another, we do that all the time, it's because I actually want children myself someday and i'm a bit of a hypochondriac and think "what if the procedure went wrong and I couldn't have kids".
Anyways, we manage to discuss it just fine. I rant at her about all the morons I see arguing pro-life who really give all of the debaters who have good reasons a bad name, you know the "What if it cures cancer" kind, the argument that can be nullified with "What if it is a homicidal maniac kills 17 people and has sex with their corpses?" The first argument is not a logical argument against abortion just as the second is not a logical argument for it. (Also I have a pet peeve when people go on about "curing" cancer. We've been "curing" cancer for hundreds of years and frankly I honest to God think I could do better myself given the funding and labs they have got. Starting by looking at ways to kill cancer, rather than cure, as cancer is the over-multiplication of the bodies natural renewal process, there isn't much to cure, killing the rogue cells by readjusting the bodies settings so to speak may be more appropriate.)
She usually agrees with me that there are a whole lot of very vocal people on the pro life side who give it a bad name, there are ignorant people on the choice side too but they tend not to picket medical facilities or attack doctors.
I don't try to change her opinion, I feel she has the right to choose to believe it, she doesn't try to change mine because I have explained why I think abortion should be legal and she sees my arguments as pretty sound and logical even though she doesn't agree with them, after all we are both Philosophy students and wouldn't dream of claiming absolute morality.
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