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 Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:31 pm
Texas Gypsy Beware the Jabberwock WatersMoon110 sachiko_sohma I got a magazine from some people going door to door about grieving over death and one of things in there was about miscarriges and stillborn. It says that alot of the time, the people might not understand the woman's loss since some people think that since it wasn't born that it doesn't really exist in their eyes and treat it as if she was never pregnant, had or going to have a baby. I don't understand how anyone could feel that way, and ignore the suffering of those poor women who had miscarriages (is a stillborn birth a miscarriage? I've always thought of it as a type of miscarriage, but maybe it isn't). Ignoring her suffering, and saying such insensitive things is like torturing the poor woman, in my eyes. It is beyond me to imagine saying something to purposely hurt another human being, but it seems like these individuals not only don't think of the loss of unborn humans as the loss of people, but that they don't think of the suffering women as people either. Of course she's grieving. Of course she needs support. And, seriously, a stroller is not worth hurting her more over. Maybe she will someday get the joy of having a healthy pregnancy and a happy baby of her own, and use that gift. I hope that this poor woman is getting support and love from other, less sociopathic, members of her family.
It's considered stillborn after a certain period of time. I think it like after 30 weeks (I just chose a period of time it might be a bit earlier or a bit later) of gestation, it's called stillbirth and not miscarriage anymore. So it can be a form of miscarriage just not called that... I think because usually they'd be able to try and save the baby.
I'm really glad that no one in my family is like the person in this article. I don't think I know a lot of people who would act like that, period.
I remember awhile back in Life Issues there was this huge thing because a young teen (I think she was like, 15) was pregnant. She was looking for advice but said straight up that abortion wasn't an option. I know a looot of choicers came down on her for that, and told her she was going to ruin her life and she was being stupid etc. She eventually, I think about a month later, had a miscarriage and then the same choicers told her that she was being a drama whore, some said she made the whole thing up, others said that it was good she'd had a miscarriage. Then the Childfree Guild (I'm pretty sure it was the childfree guild. Someone correct me if I'm wrong) had a sticky about her for awhile saying how they refused to support her because she was stupid for deciding to have the child, and it was good that she'd had a miscarriage, if the whole thing wasn't a lie. It was ridiculous, this poor girl got harassed so badly.Eh? I thought the whole point of being pro-CHOICE was to support a woman's choice, not attack her for not aborting....Hmmmm... THINGS AR DIFFERENT HERE, GET MY GUNZ. /shrug They are no more guilty than we. Just instead of thinking about themselves in the position of the fetus, they thought of themselves in the position of the girl, they knew what they would do, and felt anyone who felt differently was a moron.
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:19 pm
Beware the Jabberwock
It's considered stillborn after a certain period of time. I think it like after 30 weeks (I just chose a period of time it might be a bit earlier or a bit later) of gestation, it's called stillbirth and not miscarriage anymore. So it can be a form of miscarriage just not called that... I think because usually they'd be able to try and save the baby.Oh! That makes sense. I guess my ex-boss had a miscarriage, since I believe it was at 4 or 5 months. Either way, it's a horrible experience that I wish no one had to go through. Beware the Jabberwock I'm really glad that no one in my family is like the person in this article. I don't think I know a lot of people who would act like that, period. I don't think anyone in my family (Pro-Choice or Pro-Life) is like that either. I can't imagine being so horrible to someone, and I think all of my relatives would be very supportive of someone who miscarried. Beware the Jabberwock I remember awhile back in Life Issues there was this huge thing because a young teen (I think she was like, 15) was pregnant. She was looking for advice but said straight up that abortion wasn't an option. I know a looot of choicers came down on her for that, and told her she was going to ruin her life and she was being stupid etc. She eventually, I think about a month later, had a miscarriage and then the same choicers told her that she was being a drama whore, some said she made the whole thing up, others said that it was good she'd had a miscarriage. Then the Childfree Guild (I'm pretty sure it was the childfree guild. Someone correct me if I'm wrong) had a sticky about her for awhile saying how they refused to support her because she was stupid for deciding to have the child, and it was good that she'd had a miscarriage, if the whole thing wasn't a lie. It was ridiculous, this poor girl got harassed so badly. How on Earth could they say such things? I mean, while I think that 15 is young to have a baby, of course it should be her choice! And to suffer a miscarriage on top of all that, poor girl. And I cannot believe anyone would harass her over suffering a tragedy!
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:23 pm
Texas Gypsy Eh? I thought the whole point of being pro-CHOICE was to support a woman's choice, not attack her for not aborting....Hmmmm... Yeah, I thought that also...
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:27 pm
King Seth /shrug They are no more guilty than we. Just instead of thinking about themselves in the position of the fetus, they thought of themselves in the position of the girl, they knew what they would do, and felt anyone who felt differently was a moron. I'm sure they did. But it is possible to think someone is making the "wrong choice" and not make fun of them, or hurt them.
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:31 pm
WatersMoon110 Texas Gypsy Eh? I thought the whole point of being pro-CHOICE was to support a woman's choice, not attack her for not aborting....Hmmmm... Yeah, I thought that also... Except that the way that things work out, we're labeling things pro-life and pro-choice when really, to be more precise, it should be anti-abortion and pro-abortion. They don't mean you're completely opposed to abortion, or you're pushing it onto everyone. They simply mean, you oppose elective abortions being legal or you support elective abortions being legal. Because otherwise, the clinic bombers are labeled pro-life, and the abortion-pushers are labeled pro-choice, when really, they go against the very things they're supposed to be representing. It's not that they stand for people who are pro-life OR pro-choice in the slightest. They stand for people who are anti-abortion or pro-abortion. Labeling themselves pro-life and pro-choice is convenient because that's what the movements are calling themselves, but really, pro-life stands for something that clinic bombers violate, and along the same vein, pro-choice stands for something that abortion-pushers violate. That's why I"m not ashamed of being anti-abortion...I'm anti-abortion in addition to being pro-life. Everyone who is pro-life is anti-abortion, and everyone who is pro-choice is pro-abortion, but not necessarily everyone who is anti-abortion is pro-life. Along the same line, not everyone who is pro-abortion is pro-choice. I know the terms anti-abortion and pro-abortion sound sort of harsh, but they don't actually stand for anything other than where you stand on the legality of abortion. So...the short of it I guess is that these people are pro-abortion, but not pro-choice, even if that's what they're calling themselves.
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:09 pm
WatersMoon110 sachiko_sohma I got a magazine from some people going door to door about grieving over death and one of things in there was about miscarriges and stillborn. It says that alot of the time, the people might not understand the woman's loss since some people think that since it wasn't born that it doesn't really exist in their eyes and treat it as if she was never pregnant, had or going to have a baby. I don't understand how anyone could feel that way, and ignore the suffering of those poor women who had miscarriages (is a stillborn birth a miscarriage? I've always thought of it as a type of miscarriage, but maybe it isn't). Ignoring her suffering, and saying such insensitive things is like torturing the poor woman, in my eyes. It is beyond me to imagine saying something to purposely hurt another human being, but it seems like these individuals not only don't think of the loss of unborn humans as the loss of people, but that they don't think of the suffering women as people either. Of course she's grieving. Of course she needs support. And, seriously, a stroller is not worth hurting her more over. Maybe she will someday get the joy of having a healthy pregnancy and a happy baby of her own, and use that gift. I hope that this poor woman is getting support and love from other, less sociopathic, members of her family. I don't know why people think that way or hurt them. It's said it's best to let them grieve a bit and not be too quick about making them move on, ect...but just support them. Yes I say just let her keep it (it was a gift after all). Who knows? She might be able to have another baby. I guess stillborn is like a miscarriage, since the baby was already dead before hand (it's born dead but it was probably dead before she gave birth).
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:33 pm
WatersMoon110 King Seth /shrug They are no more guilty than we. Just instead of thinking about themselves in the position of the fetus, they thought of themselves in the position of the girl, they knew what they would do, and felt anyone who felt differently was a moron. I'm sure they did. But it is possible to think someone is making the "wrong choice" and not make fun of them, or hurt them. Not for most. The Catholic Church, the Abortion Debate thread, Texas. All examples. (I through Texas in as a joke)
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:22 pm
King Seth WatersMoon110 King Seth /shrug They are no more guilty than we. Just instead of thinking about themselves in the position of the fetus, they thought of themselves in the position of the girl, they knew what they would do, and felt anyone who felt differently was a moron. I'm sure they did. But it is possible to think someone is making the "wrong choice" and not make fun of them, or hurt them. Not for most. The Catholic Church, the Abortion Debate thread, Texas. All examples. (I through Texas in as a joke) Glad you clarified that. *cough*
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:57 am
That's just horrible. I can hardly imagine myself in the position of wanting an abortion, but you'd think even the stupidest person would realise that when a pregnancy is WANTED, the woman forms an attachment to the foetus and would be understandably devastated by the loss of the pregnancy or a stillborn result.
I can't imagine much more horrible than having a stillbirth, actually. It's almost like all the effort in the pregnancy and birth wasn't worth it.
The cousin was a jerk.
BTJ: I remember that thread. It was pretty horrible that after she had a miscarriage (although I was a little bit sceptical about whether she was actually pregnant, since one of the results of her YAY BABYness was being given loads of stuff) people were saying it was a good thing and still being nasty to her. And I'd never tell anyone to get an abortion - I'd simply inform them that it's a choice and they don't have to make it. And I might think that they're ruining their life, but I wouldn't tell them and I'd still be completely supportive - after all, not all teenage pregnancies are life-ruiners. (I don't think even a majority of them are... but it's all down to circumstance).
I can imagine some of my mum's relatives benig like this cousin, but not any of my immediate family (and we hardly see the rest of them anyway). Nor my friends. That kind of attitude just disgusts me.
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:41 pm
lymelady One of my aunts actually said to a cousin who miscarried, "You're pro-choice, I thought you realized a fetus isn't the same as a baby." WTF is wrong with people?! gonk I read that Dear Abby, too, and was just as appalled. I'd deck someone if they did that. It was hard enough losing my fiance...I can't imagine a parallel to that but I'd go ballistic if someone were that insensitive. I read Savage Love occasionally, though Dan strikes me and many others as biphobic. stare I do not like biphobic people.
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:27 am
I feel like a lot of gay men come off as maybe a little bi-phobic because Bisexuals and Homosexuals are different in the sense that gay people don't have the option to be socially acceptable, for even 50% (maybe more if you're in a straight relationship) of the time. They have no way to be straight for a little while, and it's a feeling of nakedness, sometimes.
Savage is fully gay, so I think that's why he may come off as bi-phobic-- It's just a feeling in the gay community perhaps that Bisexuals have been tainted by the coolness factor "gay" has been getting these days.
It's kind of annoying, actually. The coolness factor, I mean. I was gay before it was fashionable!
Not to derail the thread, so I'll also say that half of my family is catholic and/or french (pro-life) and one half is liberal (mostly pro-choice, 'cept moi), but my families would both feel for people who miscarry.
Pro-choice doesn't have to mean Completely disregard the fetus as anything of worth, y'alls. I mean, c'mon.
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:49 am
McPhee I feel like a lot of gay men come of as maybe a little bi-phobic because Bisexuals and Homosexuals are different in the sense that gay people don't have the option to be socially acceptable, for even 50% (maybe more if you're in a straight relationship) of the time. They have no way to be straight for a little while, and it's a feeling of nakedness, sometimes.
Savage is fully gay, so I think that's why he may come off as bi-phobic-- It's just a feeling in the gay community perhaps that Bisexuals have been tainted by the coolness factor "gay" has been getting these days.
It's kind of annoying, actually. The coolness factor, I mean. I was gay before it was fashionable!
Not to derail the thread, so I'll also say that half of my family is catholic and/or french (pro-life) and one half is liberal (mostly pro-choice, 'cept moi), but my families would both feel for people who miscarry.
Pro-choice doesn't have to mean Completely disregard the fetus as anything of worth, y'alls. I mean, c'mon. You haven't met my family. Seriously. I'm surprised I'm pro-life. I'm not saying it means "completely disregard the fetus as anything of worth." No one has said that. It just happens that people who feel a fetus doesn't have value as a person are more likely to be pro-choice (I would be), and are more likely to be insensitive to people who feel differently, but the two aren't necessarily related beyond attracting people with the same beliefs on the personhood of a fetus, and those feelings aren't shared by everyone pro-choice. And I do know people who use abortion being legal to act this way, and they honestly believe it's okay. It's their bullet-proof reasoning for why a fetus isn't a person..."If a fetus was a person, there would be no abortion."
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:19 am
lymelady I'm not saying it means "completely disregard the fetus as anything of worth." No one has said that. It just happens that people who feel a fetus doesn't have value as a person are more likely to be pro-choice (I would be), and are more likely to be insensitive to people who feel differently, but the two aren't necessarily related beyond attracting people with the same beliefs on the personhood of a fetus, and those feelings aren't shared by everyone pro-choice. And I do know people who use abortion being legal to act this way, and they honestly believe it's okay. It's their bullet-proof reasoning for why a fetus isn't a person..."If a fetus was a person, there would be no abortion." See, that really weirds me out. I mean, I'm really unsure when I feel "personhood" begins, but I can understand why many people believe that unborn humans are people. And being insensitive to someone who has suffered the tragedy of a miscarriage or stillbirth, that is just horrible. Maybe I'm just more empathetic than the average person, but I can't imagine doing anything but trying to help a woman/couple who has gone through such a thing.
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:20 am
WatersMoon110 lymelady I'm not saying it means "completely disregard the fetus as anything of worth." No one has said that. It just happens that people who feel a fetus doesn't have value as a person are more likely to be pro-choice (I would be), and are more likely to be insensitive to people who feel differently, but the two aren't necessarily related beyond attracting people with the same beliefs on the personhood of a fetus, and those feelings aren't shared by everyone pro-choice. And I do know people who use abortion being legal to act this way, and they honestly believe it's okay. It's their bullet-proof reasoning for why a fetus isn't a person..."If a fetus was a person, there would be no abortion." See, that really weirds me out. I mean, I'm really unsure when I feel "personhood" begins, but I can understand why many people believe that unborn humans are people. And being insensitive to someone who has suffered the tragedy of a miscarriage or stillbirth, that is just horrible. Maybe I'm just more empathetic than the average person, but I can't imagine doing anything but trying to help a woman/couple who has gone through such a thing. I've never really struggled with whether or not a foetus has value - I've always thought it has the value that the person attributes to it. So someone who doesn't want to be pregnant would view it as worthless, whereas a planned or wanted pregnancy would be just as valued as a child. And I totally agree with your second paragraph. (The only place I really struggled with the value thing was in Juno... where she never ever once even thinks of the baby as hers, even when she's carrying it. Which just seemed a little weird to me, to be totally disconnected from it.)
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:07 am
La Veuve Zin lymelady One of my aunts actually said to a cousin who miscarried, "You're pro-choice, I thought you realized a fetus isn't the same as a baby." WTF is wrong with people?! gonk I read that Dear Abby, too, and was just as appalled. I'd deck someone if they did that. It was hard enough losing my fiance...I can't imagine a parallel to that but I'd go ballistic if someone were that insensitive. I read Savage Love occasionally, though Dan strikes me and many others as biphobic. stare I do not like biphobic people. Wel, I find that amusing. I mean... seriously. Irony of ironies.
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