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 Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:51 pm
But I ask why the man needs to get screwed over when there's no biological need for it.
There may be a societal need for money for a single mother, but why should he have to pay it? Especially since she has the option to abort and therefore never have to pay for childcare. She can also give birth and abandon her baby at a policestation or hospital if abortion doesn't sit well with her. I know I've mentioned these before, but I think it bears repeating since it's entirely possible for a woman to not have to be a single parent, and for a child to be cared for adequately without help from biological parents.
It's not possible to be equal, period. But it's possible to be more equal.
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:25 am
Tiadaria It's such an iffy subject for me.
I can quite clearly see how wildly unfair it is. I think everyone can.
But I really don't believe it's possible to make it equal. Not without screwing someone over. Right. There is always the potential that someone will get screwed over. Life isn't fair. But, I and many others feel, this situation could be made more fair. Why should men be categorically forced into parenthood, when women are not? Tiadaria As many scary women as there are who get pregnant on purpose (against their partner's wishes), or lie, or scheme, or other such stuff, thereby binding a man to a child he doesn't want, there's just as many scary men, who would knowingly impregnate a woman (or do anything in his power to try), and then just "opt-out" of the obligation. In my experiences alone I've come across an alarming amount of men who honestly try to get a woman pregnant just to prove their manhood...and then they fight tooth and nail to not do anything about it. Giving them an "opt-out" clause just seems to make it all the worse, because really, how are you going to prove, in a legal situation, that they did it on purpose? Women who don't want to be pregnant have another option, abortion. They don't have to choose parenthood, even if a man purposely got them pregnant. (Adoption is trickier, because some states require that both parents agree - though "baby drop off points" will take babies, no questions asked, as lymelady said). Why should bad women be given a free ride into forcing parenthood on men, and the men not even be given a chance to get out of it? Why should men be screw over completely on this matter just to try to "protect women from them"? Yes, the proposed system could be (and would be, I'm sure) abused. But the existing system is already being abused! Plus, it's sexist. Tiadaria And as much as several fellow choicers will hate that I'm going to say this, I have to echo the sentiment of consequences for sex. A woman who cannot deal with being pregnant (regardless of the outcome of the pregnancy), should either get sterilized, or abstain until she feels she is ready to handle that. And, when women are allowed to choose sterilization freely (even if they might regret it in the future - there is adoption after all), maybe I'll agree with you. Tiadaria And as such, a man may find he encounters certain consequences with sex, ones that could affect his emotions, and/or his wallet. You may hope and pray and do everything you can to never incur said consequences, and you may succeed in doing so. However, it's unrealistic to deny that they're there. No one is deny the possibility of pregnancy. We just feel that there should be some more options for people, especially men, dealing with an unexpected pregnancy. Tiadaria No, it's not fair, and it's not equal, but different people, different genders, different capabilities...different outcomes in life. Right. And none of that would change under the proposed system. The only difference would be that a few men would legally opt out of parenthood. It wouldn't make things fair, just slightly less unfair (and sexist).
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:45 am
Wow, I didn't realize this thread existed. It's much longer than the one I made in the main section.
Pretty much lymelady hit the nail on the head.
I don't deny that men chase after sex, and can be duplicitous in their pursuit. But I think there's a social response to that that goes, "hey, sleep around all you want. But if you get a woman pregnant, don't go crying about how you're not ready to be a daddy. If you were man enough to do the deed, then you need to man enough to stand there and take the responsibility for the child you created."
I'm just saying. I don't think many men could get away with the "consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy" line without someone going, "phbbt! rolleyes "
It's either, you do it, or you don't do it. I think men understand that logic either way on the giving and receiving end. The ones that don't tend to be considered the horn dogs, the creeps, the irresponsible ones, the bad guys, etc. I wouldn't feel much sympathy for a guy who got his girlfriend pregnant, just like I would'nt feel sympathy for the girlfriend. You make a choice, and you live with it. Of course this isn't a hard and fast rule for every part of life, but I don't see why sex should have all these variables...when it's something people willingly participate in. It's look BEFORE you leap. Not leap, then look.
I guess, to me, the whole issue paints men as perpetrators to one degree or another, and it paints women as being victims of circumstance, one way or another. It's like, "all men who consent to sex, consent to the possibility of pregnancy, and for that, they have no room to complain should it happen." OK, fine. That's cool. But then women get to be victims of pregnancy IF they happen to not want to be pregnant at the time, or if they didn't expect it.
This idea seems to permeate through the pro-choice rhetoric I've heard. This idea that a woman who is raped and winds up pregnant and a woman who has consensual sex with someone are, in effect, the same person JUST BECAUSE their pregnancies are unwanted and unexpected.
That's just wrong to me.
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:58 am
I apologize for misunderstanding your post. ninja
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:38 am
No problem. Hey, at least you nicer about than most people when that happens.
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