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 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:50 pm
LorienLlewellyn Vickicat I don't really understand this way of thinking that marriage is sexist. Could someone please explain this to me? Sure, maybe back in the old days when marriages were arranged or when men asked a girl's father if he could marry her, instead of the girl deciding on her own to marry the guy, and when women essentially became the man's property. But that's not how it is today, so what's the big deal? You keep all your rights to property and everything else. Hell, you don't even have to take your husband's name if you really don't want to. Marriage is something I really look forward to, and I think girls dream about getting married and having a beautiful wedding more than guys do. So I'm wondering where this kind of thinking is coming from. I think marriage is a wonderful thing, if done for love. There's a lot of other reasons people get married, which I feel are the wrong reasons, but what can you do. As for sex before marriage, it's up to the individual person. Some people don't care, some do, some are fine as long as they know they've found that special person. For me, marriage seems like a long ways off sadly, because of school and living far apart from my boyfriend, and us having no money. There was a time when I wanted to wait until I was married, if for nothing else than it seemed more romantic to actually be married and go off on a honeymoon and have everything be perfect for that first time. But since that could be years down the road, I decided I'm not going to wait that long, and just do it when the time feels right. I already know he's the man I want to marry, so it shouldn't really matter. I find marriage sexist because: 1. Women usually take their husband's name. You're right that they don't have to, but most do anyway for some reason. 2. Most women wear a big dress, even if they wear pants every other day of their life. If that wasn't bad enough, it's usually a white dress to symbolize virginity. Now, most women are not virgins when they get married, but for some reason, most of them still stick with the "the bride is a virgin, the groom is not" stereotype. 3. The whole purpose of marriage is sexist. If you look at the history and legality of marriage, you can see that it was never about love. It was about making a woman a man's property. You're right that marriage has changed a bit. Most couples do marry for love now. However, we can't ignore how sexist and offensive the history and original purpose of marriage is. 4. You're right; many girls do dream of having a big sexist wedding where they get to put on a puffy white dress, pretend to be a virgin, get their hair done, get their makeup done, etc. It's like society hardwires it into little girl's heads that they should look forward to this blatant display of sexism, and that's pretty sick in my opinion. Now, of course, there are ways to get married without being sexist. People can marry for love, they can both wear pants, neither can wear white, the wife can decline taking her husband's name, etc. Sadly, all of that is rarely done. If you want to get married without the sexism, however, hey, more power to you. There is even a chance that I will marry someday for health insurance or a tax break, and I assure you there will be no sexism in my marriage either. xp You may or may not agree with me. I am not trying to debate here. I gave my opinion, you asked me to elaborate, and there it is. I know a lot of people agree with me, and even more disagree with me. That's fine. 3nodding These are just my thoughts and feelings on most American marriages.
The name thing, I don't really mind. I actually wouldn't mind having a new last name, for somewhat silly reasons, but they're still reasons. I have a Spanish last name, but I don't speak Spanish. I never learned it, and it's somewhat embarrassing when people find out my name and I have to explain that I don't speak it. Also, my dad receives free newspapers and stuff in Spanish which he doesn't want. It's just more junk. I don't want to be bombarded with junk mail and papers that I can't even read. I've already received magazines and things in the past that are in Spanish, and it does me absolutely no good. So when I've got my own address and such, having my husband's name would hopefully prevent this sort of thing. I don't like receiving extra junk. And I really don't mind having his name. I'd rather have his name, and everyone know that I'm his wife and love him and am married to him, than keep my name and have people wonder. However, if he had a last name I really disliked, and there are some bad ones out there, I would certainly insist on not taking it, and probably suggest that he take mine instead. Either way, I'd like for us to share the same last name. And I don't like hyphenated names, those bug me. It's like making your name a long extra mouthful for everyone to say, and I think it looks pretty ridiculous. So I think either take your husband's last name, have him take yours, or each keep your own name. But yes, I do see your point about the last name, and I think that if a man loves a woman and she really likes her name, he shouldn't have a problem with alternative options like that.
About the dress. I think wedding dresses are beautiful. I'm not a dress person, nearly everyday I wear pants. Though I will wear dresses or skirts once in a while for a change. But I'll usually wear shorts underneath them, I hate the feeling of nothing separating my privates from the world but my undies. But, I don't mind dresses for special occasions. I think wearing fancy dresses is fun, and makes me feel beautiful. I absolutely adored my prom dress and I wish I had an excuse to wear it again. So, I look forward to picking out a beautiful wedding dress when that time comes.
Now, I won't even get into the whole women should be virgins but men don't have to, that is one thing that does disgust me and I could rant on and on about that one. In short, being a virgin, I expect anyone I get in a serious relationship to be one as well. I saved my virginity, I expect the same in return. My boyfriend is a virgin, and we are going to lose that to each other. It will probably be before we're married. But we're quite sure we're going to get married, we've been together for years. The only thing stopping us is our current situations with school and money. Whether I'm still a virgin when I get married or not, I'm going to wear a white dress. I really don't care about what it stands for, the color of any of my clothes does not depend on whether I've had sex or not. I don't consider it pretending to be a virgin. I consider it choosing to wear a certain color, and nothing more. I don't even think that most people realize that that's what the white dress is supposed to mean. I may be wrong about that, but I certainly never knew that until recently when someone else mentioned it on another site.
But yeah, I wasn't really trying to start a debate either, I was just curious as to why people felt this way, because to me most of the things about modern weddings don't seem bad. Society has come a long way, but I do think that they could go even farther. I do think that it should be made more of a common practice for couples to actually decide on together who's name to take, and things like that, so that women are not constantly taking their husband's last names, especially if they'd rather keep their own. Like I said, I want to take my husband's last name, but that's my personal choice, and if I felt differently about it, I'd tell him so.
And of course, there's always the option to marry and not have a wedding at all.
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:41 am
Vickicat I may be wrong about that, but I certainly never knew that until recently when someone else mentioned it on another site.
But yeah, I wasn't really trying to start a debate either, I was just curious as to why people felt this way, because to me most of the things about modern weddings don't seem bad. Society has come a long way, but I do think that they could go even farther. I do think that it should be made more of a common practice for couples to actually decide on together who's name to take, and things like that, so that women are not constantly taking their husband's last names, especially if they'd rather keep their own. Like I said, I want to take my husband's last name, but that's my personal choice, and if I felt differently about it, I'd tell him so.
And of course, there's always the option to marry and not have a wedding at all. I agree; I don't think most people realize that their white dress is a symbol of their "virginity." That's actually another thing that bothers me about it. People follow some traditions mindlessly. They'll do something without even stopping to think about why they are doing it. I think a lot of women say, "I am going to wear a white dress for my wedding because that is what women do," and it's that attitude that bothers me. I am not saying women should never, ever wear a white dress of course. If white is your favorite or color, or if you find a dress you love that just happens to be white, or whatever, go for it. I just think people need to think about what they are doing and why they are doing it. I agree that society still has a little way to go. Society isn't going to go anywhere on its own though. We have to make it move. And we have to do that by standing up and saying, "No. I am not going to do that simply because I happen to have a v****a." I have no problem with women taking their husbands last name if they don't do it because, "I'm the female, and that's what females do," you know? For example, some women choose their husband's last name because their father was abusive, and they want any name other than his. That's fine. Like you said, it should be something that people discuss rather than something people do simply because everyone else did it in the past.
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:10 pm
LorienLlewellyn xbookxwormx And I want to be called Ms. not Mrs. so yeah. that's my opinion too. When I have to fill out forms, I check "Ms." I hate how women have "Miss" and "Mrs." while men just have "Mr." I don't understand that. It's like it's implying that our relationship status matters and somehow defines who we are, but it doesn't matter for men. In high school I had a teacher who insisted on being called "Ms." If you called her "Miss" or "Mrs." she seriously freaked out.
Another thing I'm surprised no one brought up, that I'd seriously like to strangle people for, is when they address women by their husband's full names, like on envelopes and stuff. I don't see it much, but the first time I saw it as a kid, I freaked out and couldn't believe someone would do that. I thought it was horrible. What I mean is "Mr. and Mrs. (husband's first name) (last name)". As I said before, I plan to take my husband's last name, but that doesn't mean I'm taking his first as well, and if they don't address us as "Mr. and Mrs. (our last name)" or "Mr. (his name) and Mrs. (my name) ( our last name)" I'd seriously consider saying something about it.
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:57 pm
See i had no idea about any of this stuff! The whole white dress thing..that shocked me. I know white means pure and all that but i didn't connect it to virginity as well. I wanted to wear a white dress for my wedding cuz inevitably i thought thats just a wedding thing. Not what women do when they get married just a wedding thing. If i wore white i was going to make my husband do the same. I nvr knew that its just to show the woman is virgin. Its to late for me on that subject though.I really nvr wanted to wear white in the 1st place xd I actually wanted to make black the color to wear to show ppl that it isn't a dirty color and it isnt just for funerals. stare
The whole ms. mrs. and mr. thing never really bothered me cuz no one made the point of it being sexist for women to have two and men to have only one. And even if they did change it what would the 2nd name b4 for men anyway? or taking away the mrs. would work too!lol
As for the the taking of the last name i would do it only for the simple fact that i love the person! Although im still keeping my last name i'm adding his to mine just like my aunt. 3nodding
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:16 pm
xbookxwormx I totally agree with you. It makes me angry, really, to think about being called Mrs. My future husband's name. Hello, I'm a person too! I would love to get married, but my dress isn't going to be huge and it's NOT going to be white, it's not going to be in a church, I don't want to have kids, and I can't cook. Marriage should be about equality. Not Mr. and Mrs. Bob smith. It should be Mr. Smith and Ms. Lady. I am not going to change my name. I like who I am. I own myself, my future husband doesn't own me. I just don't think marriage is fair for women, even though i want to get married. I don't want to have a traditional wedding at all. And I want to be called Ms. not Mrs. so yeah. that's my opinion too. I had sex with my husband before we got married. I'm VERY glad we did, too, because it took us over a year of having sex before I could even get to orgasm! And there were many months of soul searching as we both dealt with self-esteem problems tied to sex, and problems that were largely connected to our psychological issues that manifested themselves physically (me not being able to relax or orgasm/him losing his erection or coming too quickly). Boy am I ever glad that we went through all that stuff first, so our wedding night was amazingly blissful! I have been married for about a year and a half, but was with my husband for about three or four years before we got married. I still go by Ms. And my husband is changing his last name to mine (by mutual decision). My husband and I went by this number one rule for a good wedding: "Do it exactly as you both want it." We both did all the work. We both picked out the dress and the tux. We both picked out what to eat, what the cake would be like, who would take the pictures, what music would be played, what justice of the peace would be there, etc. And it was an amazing wedding, in fact, even the "old timers" in the family said it was one of the best weddings they'd gone to in ages. And I wore a red dress. smile
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:11 am
Oni no Tenshi I had sex with my husband before we got married. I'm VERY glad we did, too, because it took us over a year of having sex before I could even get to orgasm! And there were many months of soul searching as we both dealt with self-esteem problems tied to sex, and problems that were largely connected to our psychological issues that manifested themselves physically (me not being able to relax or orgasm/him losing his erection or coming too quickly). Boy am I ever glad that we went through all that stuff first, so our wedding night was amazingly blissful! I have been married for about a year and a half, but was with my husband for about three or four years before we got married. I still go by Ms. And my husband is changing his last name to mine (by mutual decision). My husband and I went by this number one rule for a good wedding: "Do it exactly as you both want it." We both did all the work. We both picked out the dress and the tux. We both picked out what to eat, what the cake would be like, who would take the pictures, what music would be played, what justice of the peace would be there, etc. And it was an amazing wedding, in fact, even the "old timers" in the family said it was one of the best weddings they'd gone to in ages. And I wore a red dress. smile Sounds awesome!
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:48 am
LorienLlewellyn Personally, I think waiting for marriage is silly. Marriage is nothing but a legal document. A piece of paper does not prove that two people love each other or are ready for sexual activity. And I will be darned if I let a piece of paper try to tell me how to live my life. I am sexually active, and I do not plan on getting married. I see marriage as extremely outdated, sexist, and unnecessary. Sex isn't necessary in all relationships. Married or not, some people rush into it, others wait. If you want to wait longer, go for it. although i personnally agree many religions are still against and tbh its your choice i mean if you choose not to wait i wouldnt go have sex with the next person you see still wait for someone yo love but but if you choose to wait no1 can really critisize you and also there many alternatives lol there good fun wink sweatdrop wink so its really up to you
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:11 pm
smexy lil fish LorienLlewellyn Personally, I think waiting for marriage is silly. Marriage is nothing but a legal document. A piece of paper does not prove that two people love each other or are ready for sexual activity. And I will be darned if I let a piece of paper try to tell me how to live my life. I am sexually active, and I do not plan on getting married. I see marriage as extremely outdated, sexist, and unnecessary. Sex isn't necessary in all relationships. Married or not, some people rush into it, others wait. If you want to wait longer, go for it. although i personnally agree many religions are still against and tbh its your choice i mean if you choose not to wait i wouldnt go have sex with the next person you see still wait for someone yo love but but if you choose to wait no1 can really critisize you and also there many alternatives lol there good fun wink sweatdrop wink so its really up to you Yes, there are many religions that agree and many religions that don't. It's that way with lots of things from shaving pubic hair, to equal rights for women, to eating lobster. Religion may be an issue for some people. I, however, am not part of a religion that says I cannot have sex before marriage, so religion isn't relevant to my personal beliefs on this issue. As for waiting for someone you love, that's another opinion. Some people think sex cannot or should not happen without love. Other people see sex an something completely unemotional that has nothing to do with love or commitment. I am one of the latter. I have had sex outside of a relationship with people I was not committed to and did not love. That's simply what I am comfortable with and what I enjoy doing. You're right though; no one can criticize anyone else for waiting or not waiting. People are just too different to all live by the same standards and ideals. 3nodding
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:40 am
I personally think it's ok to have sex while you're in a loving relationship and it doesn't really need to be only in marriage, as long as you're with someone you care about. Sex isn't the end all of a relationship but it deffinatly helps express love with your partner, and if many people are like me they would be with that person well over 5 years before considering marriage, that's alot of strain on an adult relationship. But if you want to wait untill you're married that's you're choice, don't let society or other people change your morals, it's yourself you would be dissapointing if you don't stick to your own morals.
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:03 pm
LorienLlewellyn You're right though; no one can criticize anyone else for waiting or not waiting. People are just too different to all live by the same standards and ideals. 3nodding I agree!!!
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