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I'm going to do something that some people don't like . . . sweatdrop I'm going to re-post part of a previous post of mine that I posted as my last post. It's based on what I heard from Rob Bell in a DVD called "everything is spiritual." And I believe it relates to this discussion very much. If you have already read it, feel free to skip to the dotted line.


We live in a three-dimensional world. We can move up and down, left and right, and backwards and forwards. But imagine if there was a 2-D world in which people lived. Let's imagine the entirety of that world is contained within a rectangle on a white board. Inside the rectangle, there are two stick-figures, or people. They can move left, right, up and down . . . but they can't move forwards or backwards. They're just 2-D. They can't fully comprehend anything three-dimensional. But say I, being in the 3-D world, was able to push something through their world -- through the white board. They wouldn't see the ring the same way you or I can. As it traveled through, it would be seen as a series of lines. First, it would just be a single dot (.), which would be the very edge of the ring. Since a circle grows wider as you scan down it, next it would be a wider shape - a line (--). Then it would be two separate lines (- -), since a ring has a hollow center, a cross-section of a ring would have two ends. Then it would be one line again (--), and then it would return to a dot (.), and then dissapear.

It would be processed like this:
____-
___---
_ --___--
___---
____-


(obviously, it's not the best picture, but please do bear with me.)

The two people in flatland wouldn't really be quite sure what had just happened. The first person would be like, "What was that?"

The second person would say, "I'm not sure . . . but I think it was a ring."

"A ring? How do you know?"

"I'm not sure . . . I just feel that it was a ring. I can't really explain it. I mean, what do you think it was?"

"I just think it was what it was - a series of dots and lines."

"Well . . . I think there's more than that." And he'd be right. There's an entire dimension outside of his, and what went through his world was just what he believed it to be - a ring. He couldn't explain it, or prove it. He would have to use words like "I think" or "I feel" or "I believe" or even "faith". While the other person just sticks to the facts, the documents, and concludes that their rectangle that is flatland is all that there is and that there was no "ring".

In this scenario, the un-believer was actually the close-minded one. He wouldn't believe in the ring because he couldn't accept the fact that there is something more -- there's something beyond his own world -- there's a third dimension that he can't see or understand, yet it exists.

In our world, it's the same thing. We fully live inside the third dimension, but the third dimension isn't the last dimension that exists. Scientists now think that there's at least 11 dimensions, according to the string theory! (one source) Many accept that time is the fourth dimension. We are constrained to only move forwards in time. We can't go back, up or down, left or right. Just forward. Many believe that God can move fully in this dimension, if not many more. So in the same way that the two people in flatland could not fully comprehend the ring moving through, so we too cannot fully understand God, since He belongs to outside dimensions.


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I think that right now, a couple of us (I'm not going to point any fingers ninja ) seem to be more like the first person in flatland that didn't believe that a ring passed through their world, but rather, it was just what they saw - a sequence of lines. Using that as an analogy for our world, outside of which there are many dimensions (according to the string theory), it would not be completely unreasonable to suppose that God is a part of those many dimensions, just like we are a part of the third, and He can move around and do things in ways we can never understand, and when He interacts with our world, we don't understand what happened, but we can only explain it with words like "feel" and "believe" and "faith".

When you keep your mind busy with facts about our own world and documented evidence . . . when you keep your mind inside the rectangle of flatland . . . you fail to realize that there's more than we can understand. There's a man outside of the white board pushing his ring through it. There's more. That's what Jesus said. He spoke about God's Kingdom - not the Roman Empire or even a political domain. And because He talked about there being more, people tried to shut Him up. He ended up being killed (but we all know that He intended for that to happen all along . . . which is just so brilliant when you think about the eventual outcome - the reconciliation of man with God).

Yeah, so faith isn't all that bad, really.

Also . . . what has been said to Link reminds me of a passage I recently read in 1 Chronicles.

[quote="1 Chronicles 15:29]As the ark of the covenant of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David dancing and celebrating, she despised him in her heart.

David was going crazy for God. I believe in another account, it mentioned that he took off his robe. So David, to express his praise, became completely undignified, danced around in his undies, and probably was singing to God. Not so cool for a king to do. But he was worshiping God. He was, as the scriptures say, "A man after God's own heart." And even though he screwed up plenty of times, just like everybody, (like when he killed Bathsheba's husband in order to have her . . .) God still counted him as righteous because of his love for Him. I certainly don't believe that it's shameful to lose yourself to God. He commands us (He doesn't just ask us) to love Him with all that we are. Our entire life exists to glorify Him. And above all that, He loves us more than we can ever understand, is good, just, and wants the best for us. With that said, I would certainly want to live my life all for Him. I envy the kind of unashamed character David had. It is my shame and desire to be accepted by others, among other things, that actually keeps me from being all that I could be in Christ.

So that's my two cents. biggrin

You once again misinterpreted to what I'm saying. What I'm trying to say is that there is more to life than believeing in God. Why don't you at least go outside and smell the bloody roses every once in a while. Open your eyes and see the world for what it really is. Take time and observe every living creature.

And Christians burned innocent people, women for their beliefs. Don't try and make it look like Christians were the victims. That is entirely not possible. Christians have persecuted many people of either a different faith or believeing in God a little differently. The Protestants excuted Catholics and vice versa. I know this because I'm a history buff and I was once mistreated because I was Buddhist. "If you don't believe in my God, who is good and rightoues while your God is "false", then you are going to hell". That's a very nice little arguement, and it is also an insult. If God created us all then he did indeed create the other religions and he is represented by the different Gods. If my theory is correct then what you're doing is nothing more then criticizing God. Everyone can believe in their own beliefs and believe in God in their own little way. It is possible to do so in this country. If you don't like it once again tough. We live in a society that is very accepting of others or that's how it should be.

I'm not picking a fight I'm just trying to get you to see things from my perspective. Unfourtuantly I see know that's impossible... stare

Which is the reason why I am more or less afraid to go to church. Just hearing people spew hatred about each other sickens me. Is this how God truly uintended us to act? What has this world come to? Have we stooped so low? Is humanity even worth saving? stare

To be fair Link of Chaos, you've already made it pretty clear your God isn't the God of the Bible in the other thread so you can't claim it as the source of your beliefs. If you'd like to though, I'd be glad to address your use of the Bible as a Holy wet fish with which you beat your compatriots over the head with.

If you're claiming the Bible as your basis for belief, and therefore action, then you obviously have not critically read the Bible unless you're telling me you support slavery and genocide. Let me expand on that: If you go by every rule in the Bible, then you would know who you can and can't own, how much you should pay for them, and how long you can keep them as slaves. You could also say "I, Link of Chaos, believe it is important that unruly children be taken before the village elders and then stoned to death at the edge of the village." That is barbaric and dogmatic.

So which is it Link of Chaos? Are you following the Christian God or did you just steal theirs and modify it to suit your needs?

PLEASE . . . instead of pushing Link's buttons by saying that he doesn't believe in the God of the Bible, please tell him why you think his beliefs are different from the Bible. Give verses. Let us see them and give our own answers. Instead of slandering his faith, show him what you think is off. If you keep saying things like that, no discussion will ever be made. Instead, it will only end up as a fiery argument.

Hmm . . . well if you're up to it, it would seem that it would be a good idea to make a separate thread about the belief that God is found in all religions. I think a lot of discussion could come from that. Though . . . things are getting kind of hot already. Man . . .

Here's my thoughts on that. You hold the theory that God created all the other religions and is represented in each one of them. It's a nice idea. And it would be great if that was true beyond a doubt. But if that's true, why are there so many instances in the Bible where God is noted as a jealous god -- a god who burns with jealousy when other gods are worshiped? Surely, if all gods were from God, when people worshiped idols, they would have been worshiping Him, and so how could He be jealous with himself?

Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

2 Chronicles 24:18
They abandoned the temple of the LORD, the God of their fathers, and worshiped Asherah poles and idols. Because of their guilt, God's anger came upon Judah and Jerusalem.

In reading 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, and 2 Chronicles, you notice that there are kings of Israel and Judah that God sees as righteous, and kings that He sees as wicked. And the main reason the bad kings were seen as wicked was because they abandoned God and worshiped idols. Time and time again, you read how king after king turns against the way of the Lord and worships idols, and that hurts God and he becomes angry. But for the longest time, He remains patient and waits for Israel and Judah to repent. But after a time, He fulfills the promise He made in Leviticus:

" 'But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant . . .

". . . I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you . . .

"I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins."

(Leviticus 26:14-15, 17, 33-34)

And God carries out this promise through the captivity of Israel in Babylon. Babylon conquers Israel and carries its people to its own land.

And all of that mostly because of worshiping idols.

If these other religions, these other gods, were all supported by the Lord, why did He punish His people for worshiping them?

If you want my honest and truthful opinion I'd say that, we don't really know if he is truly punishing those who believe in different religions. It may say that in the bible but again the bible doesn't seem that trustworthy of a source. I have good reasons and it doesn't take the village idiot to understand these things. (Plus me and my friend were just talking about this, this morning.

1. The bible is a very old book. It has been translated into hundreds of different languages like any old book. There is bound to be mistranslations in between them. It happens with any book. Take the Japanese graphic novel. It is read right to left instead of left to right so the translation wouldn't be lost. It doesn't take an idiot to know this. The next time you're in a book store in the graphic novels section pick up a Japanese graphic novel and read the inside back cover, there is a couple paragraphs explaining why its read the way it is.

2. The words in the bible are often misconstrued by others. Again it won't take an idiot to know this (even if you aren't taking Journalism). Okay any quote that is used in the newspaper or non-fiction book (ie. The Innocent Man) can be misconstrued. That's why there are things called libel lawsuits. Again doesn't take an idiot to know this (you just need to do your research).

3. The Bible is misinterpreted. The people who preach the bible spread the seeds of hatred by saying that God hates certain people, things, ideas, qualities etc. When in reality God loves everyone. Again doesn't take an idiot. You just need to pay attention.

4. The bible is written by man. God probably didn't tell them all the things in the book. Especially about woman being opressed and the slavery. They probably just used their imaginations and threw those things in. If God were a person today and the apostles were still alive, God would've sued the Apostles for libel.

5. The Bible was written in Hebrew. Please see 1 for explanation.

6. The Bible was written sometime after Jesus' death. Still was around 3,000 years ago. Jesus granted died sometime before then. But it was still sometime after Jesus died..At least 40 some odd years give or take.

(Link, Emu (that's a funny username...everytime I say it outloud I laugh..kinda like saying President Huckabee..no offense) or anyone else don't get mad. I'm just expaining my points in a logical manner.)

What does you being Jewish have to do with this? Sorry if I don't get this headon..I'm tired..