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 Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:31 am
The2Crimson3King That does make sense but to do that would go against human nature. Humans are naturally tribal and don't like people different or new to them. just like the tribes that exist today most don't like outsiders and think badly of them Yes yes...you might have noticed in my first post: Krego-sama I think the only way we will every end racism...is to completely stop classifying people by race. I don't think this will ever happen. I really do agree.
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:17 am
Krego-sama Not that Jewish is a race... Also... Shelcombakasfire And, the reason there are stereotypes is because 50% of the time they apply, often by people forcing themselves into that category, IE, "ghetto" peeps tryin' to go all gangsta. You must understand...I am not saying that we need to stop having stereotypes...I am saying that to be completely get rid of racism we need to raise children with the idea that skin color is no more important a feature than having a large or small nose ( In recent polls 60% of the large nosed people said they would vote for Hillary in the upcoming election. What will Hillary have to do to win the small nose vote? just don't see this happening lol.) The very act of putting as much focus on the color of people's skin as we do is what causes people to have such strong stereotypes. "Jewish" is considered in it's complete own standing, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it, if you don't believe me do some research on the Spendler/Sedowski case (though I doubt you'd find much since nothing that happens in MN is of any importance). I realize all of this, but understand. Children are innocently racist. They don't know any better then to ask "why is his nose flatter than mine?" or "How come I get sunburned but he's dark?" because they're kids and they don't know, so they ask these questions. Sadly, but one of two events will happen: A.) Their parents (either intentionally or perhaps accidentally)will tell them something completely wrong which either is racist or will become racist or, B.) The child is told no, he can't ask those questions, and assumes all races must be bad and/or it's wrong to be curious. Example, from when I was student-teaching in the corps (ages 6 and 4): Boy1: You know, I really think I like girls Boy2:Nah, girls are icky Boy1:But they're pretty and you marry them. And all of them are nice. Boy2: I guess you're right but... Boy1: What? Boy2: I don't think I could like all girls... some are Chinese. And believe me, I guarantee you his parents didn't teach him that, and that he's never actually seen a Chinese person irl. Humans can't help but classify...
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Shelcombakasfire Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:15 am
Shelcombakasfire Krego-sama Not that Jewish is a race... Also... Shelcombakasfire And, the reason there are stereotypes is because 50% of the time they apply, often by people forcing themselves into that category, IE, "ghetto" peeps tryin' to go all gangsta. You must understand...I am not saying that we need to stop having stereotypes...I am saying that to be completely get rid of racism we need to raise children with the idea that skin color is no more important a feature than having a large or small nose ( In recent polls 60% of the large nosed people said they would vote for Hillary in the upcoming election. What will Hillary have to do to win the small nose vote? just don't see this happening lol.) The very act of putting as much focus on the color of people's skin as we do is what causes people to have such strong stereotypes. "Jewish" is considered in it's complete own standing, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it, if you don't believe me do some research on the Spendler/Sedowski case (though I doubt you'd find much since nothing that happens in MN is of any importance). I realize all of this, but understand. Children are innocently racist. They don't know any better then to ask "why is his nose flatter than mine?" or "How come I get sunburned but he's dark?" because they're kids and they don't know, so they ask these questions. Sadly, but one of two events will happen: A.) Their parents (either intentionally or perhaps accidentally)will tell them something completely wrong which either is racist or will become racist or, B.) The child is told no, he can't ask those questions, and assumes all races must be bad and/or it's wrong to be curious. Example, from when I was student-teaching in the corps (ages 6 and 4): Boy1: You know, I really think I like girls Boy2:Nah, girls are icky Boy1:But they're pretty and you marry them. And all of them are nice. Boy2: I guess you're right but... Boy1: What? Boy2: I don't think I could like all girls... some are Chinese. And believe me, I guarantee you his parents didn't teach him that, and that he's never actually seen a Chinese person irl. Humans can't help but classify... I wouldn't be so sure he didn't hear something about the Chinese from his parents, though he may not have really understood what was said. And I was just pointing out that Jewish is not a race...anybody from any race could possibly be Jewish. What you are talking about is religious diversity, and Jewish is a religion that usually stays with it's own, and, for obvious reasons, is very very well known. And children can be 'innocently racist' I guess. But thats not really racism. It's just curiosity. What you are describing is the racist reaction, to the curiosity, by the adult. On the child's part he may as well be asking why some punk kid has huge holes in his ears. lol.
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:24 am
But if that kid were 5 years older and asked a black guy "Why's your hair so gnarly" someone would get pissed off, thinking he was being a jerk. Age matters.
And as to the Chinese thing: It's possible I'm sure, though, I know his parents pretty well. Moreover, they're so worried about being politically correct they probably don't even say the word "race". Further more, I'm sticking with saying ethnicity.
We're all the human race.
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Shelcombakasfire Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:45 am
Here's something...And this applies to your 'innocent racism' and to how the chinese thing could happen.
I have a little brother that just turned 5. A few months ago he was calling a lot of people 'meanie'. My mom thought it was kind of rude, so she tried to get him to say something different. She got him to start saying 'beanie'. When I heard it I obviously noticed that it sounds quite a bit like 'beaner'. We also had a Mexican family move down the street, and my brother likes to go over and play with their daughters. It struck me that they could misinterpret the word 'beanie', thinking he meant 'beaner', and become very offended. When I explained this to my mom she was surprised. She hadn't even heard Mexicans being referred to as beaners, and had no idea before I explained this to her.
In this case both my mother and my brother are completely innocent of being racist, but could easily be interpreted as racist by others. Age doesn't have a lot to do with it.
As for being just plain curious...it is just more common for children to voice their curiosities. Even an adult asking that kind of question is innocent of being racist (unless of course he said it to try to offend). If the person he is asking is offended that is kinda their own fault.
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:42 am
I concur.
People should quit being so touchy about that stuff.
Seriously, if you're different, accept the fact that you're not a dime a dozen. There's no reason to get offended when someone makes the observation that you're different, unless you're in some sort of denial.
The thing is, it's a double edged blade with a majority of the population. People both need to feel individual as well as integrated into their social groupings. The need for individuality makes people strive to be different, but the need to "fit in" then makes people self-conscious about their differences. Oooh what a mighty paradox that is.
People will celebrate that they are different. I site that national black history month thing that the US and Canada do.
People will live in denial of their differences. I site people being offended that someone note the difference in the color of their skin, cultural background, etc.
If we are going to eliminate the role of racism in today's society, we need to do the exact opposite of what Krego-sama says. We need to note our differences and stop denying them. It is only when we truly accept our differences and appreciate them that we can stop the madness. Sure, this means that racism would reach an all time high what with everyone acknowledging each other's differences, but it would be more based on appreciation and acceptance than on hate and discrimination.
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:16 pm
I wasn't saying to deny that we have differences. I am saying to treat race the same as you would treat any other difference. In other words, get rid of government polls that address specific races, and other things like that.
What you are saying is that people should group up with their own and celebrate being different. All this does is cause people to generalize more than they do already. I think that people need to form groups based on beliefs, or political standing. If the focus could be taken completely off of race then there would be no racial hate crimes. As long as you group people by race as much as we do now people will continue to pass Judgment on others based on skin color.
There is nothing wrong with being different, but having a different skin color does not have any effect on what you believe and how you choose to live. Why should we continue to act like it does?
We should celebrate what we believe, and celebrate our freedom to have our own beliefs.
I agree that people should be proud of their cultural background, but I don't think you need to classify that cultural background by skin color. This is a flawed point of view anyways. Not all black people come from Africa. Not all Hispanics come from Mexico.
We don't have to deny having different skin color, but if we are going to 'note' the fact that we have different skin color, then we should only 'note' this difference as much as we 'note' the difference between a person with a large nose or a small nose, or the difference between people with big feet and people with small feet, because having a different color of skin has just as much effect on what we believe as those things. To say that our skin color has more importance than that is to take a step down the road of generalization. Skin color is only a physical feature, and it should only be treated as importantly as any other physical feature would be.
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:14 am
Krego-sama What you are saying is that people should group up with their own and celebrate being different. Actually, that's not what I'm saying at all. I mentioned nothing about people grouping up with "their own." To me, there shouldn't be a "their own" and it's more on an individual basis. People need to accept the qualities that make them a unique individual whether they be mental, physical, etc. They need to quit denying that they're different and getting offended when people tell them that they are. I think the solution is security within oneself as an individual. Nothing at all to do with social grouping. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could've been. Krego-sama I think that people need to form groups based on beliefs, or political standing. There already are such groups. Think political parties/affiliations as well as belonging to a church or other religious group. Groupings are everywhere and I don't think most types of grouping create an adequate solution. No matter what sort of grouping occurs, there will always be people on the inside and people who are excluded. I think people as individuals should be their own grouping. The largest grouping that I find beneficial is a family grouping or a community grouping: groupings where people band together to help each other regardless of differences. Those, in my mind, are the ones worth having. People need to learn to be who they are and quit being lazy about learning who other individuals are. It is the laziness that causes us to classify each other. We don't want to have to get to know everyone individually so we try to make holistic observations and apply them. Unfortunately, these observations fail in giving us an accurate depiction of who someone is because most people only adhere to partial stereotyping, if any at all. Krego-sama We should celebrate what we believe, and celebrate our freedom to have our own beliefs. Well said. I definitely agree with that. Krego-sama I agree that people should be proud of their cultural background, but I don't think you need to classify that cultural background by skin color. This is a flawed point of view anyways. Not all black people come from Africa. Not all Hispanics come from Mexico. I never said you did need to do that. In fact, I quite agree with you that cultural background sometimes has nothing at all to do with skin color. I just listed it in with skin color as another example of "ways people are different." I suppose I'm a bit hard to follow when I end up taking on the debate of overall prejudice rather than just sticking to racism. lol. But yeah, you get what I meant now, I hope. Though, I would have to argue that sometimes skin color is a definite part of a person's cultural background. For instance, an African American who is a slave descendant would have a greatly different cultural/historical background from a white plantation owner's granddaughter. A great part of a person's cultural background lies in the history of their family members. And since history has largely been influenced by racism, it is still relevant to consider that skin color and cultural background are still, in various cases, linked. Krego-sama We don't have to deny having different skin color, but if we are going to 'note' the fact that we have different skin color, then we should only 'note' this difference as much as we 'note' the difference between a person with a large nose or a small nose, or the difference between people with big feet and people with small feet, because having a different color of skin has just as much effect on what we believe as those things. To say that our skin color has more importance than that is to take a step down the road of generalization. Skin color is only a physical feature, and it should only be treated as importantly as any other physical feature would be. True. I never said we had to note it any further than that. I think it should be noted in much the same way as you would note an awesome hairstyle someone has as they walk past you on the street. You know what I mean? Sort of like, "hey I like the way the sun shining on that person's dark brown skin makes it look like molten chocolate" or "I wish I had her olive skin tone...then I wouldn't have to get a tan to keep people from asking me if I'm sick." And yeah, there can also be the negative comments of "I prefer to gaze at tan male models than the ones that are so pale they look like ghosts." But basically skin color and physical features are just aesthetics. They should be noted because seeing is a great thing. Just because we should note it, though, doesn't mean I think people should assign other attributes besides aesthetic appeal to someone's physique. (example: thinking that because someone's skin has a dark tan look that they must speak Spanish).
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:02 am
xsparklersx Actually, that's not what I'm saying at all. I mentioned nothing about people grouping up with "their own." To me, there shouldn't be a "their own" and it's more on an individual basis. People need to accept the qualities that make them a unique individual whether they be mental, physical, etc. They need to quit denying that they're different and getting offended when people tell them that they are. I think the solution is security within oneself as an individual. Nothing at all to do with social grouping. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could've been. It did sound a little different the way it was in your original post. The topic was racism/skin color. You were talking about 'celebrating' differences, and naturally assumed you meant skin color, but you also pointed out cultural differences. When you celebrate your culture you naturally celebrate with others with the same cultural background, so to me it sounded like you were implying that we should be separating into groups of 'our own', particularly based on skin color. xsparklersx There already are such groups. Think political parties/affiliations as well as belonging to a church or other religious group. Groupings are everywhere and I don't think most types of grouping create an adequate solution. No matter what sort of grouping occurs, there will always be people on the inside and people who are excluded. I think people as individuals should be their own grouping. The largest grouping that I find beneficial is a family grouping or a community grouping: groupings where people band together to help each other regardless of differences. Those, in my mind, are the ones worth having. I was not saying that there weren't such groups. I was stating that these groups are the ones that should count while those based on things like skin color do not. And while I did not mention it, I was not implying that family and community grouping should be excluded. These are very good things. However, I believe that forming groups based on political beliefs is very important. I am sure we will never get to the point where everyone has the same political point of view, and these groups are very important to the way we choose political leaders. But I do not see any reason why political beliefs should get in the way of family or community. I would like to point something out that somewhat relates to a 'community'. Living in the US, I hear a lot of people saying things like "Kick the foreigners out". Things that are usually based on skin color, as well as the fact that these people were not originally US citizens. I always get very angry at the stupidity of the people saying these things. They are saying these things on the basis that they themselves are US citizens that belong here because their families have lived here for so long, but by acting this way they are acting against the very foundations of the country. The United States was literally founded by foreigners coming together with the common goal of freedom. I am, and always have been, very proud of my country's diversity, and acceptance of diversity. In my opinion, a person who only became a citizen yesterday has just as much right to call himself an American as a person who can trace his ancestry to the original thirteen colonies. I think that if we could all see things this way, to come together and identify ourselves one country, it would be a huge step towards ridding the world of prejudice. In this same way I believe that people need to group together as one human race. To many people only care about themselves, while ignoring the trouble in other countries. (Completely off topic, but this is how I feel about people who are against the war in Iraq...if you are against the war in Iraq it is because you are thinking of your own. It is also quite possible that you are somewhat ignorant of what is actually going on there. The media does a really good job of bringing out the worst, and ignoring the good. Not too surprising since this is how most of us treat those around us.) xsparklersx People need to learn to be who they are and quit being lazy about learning who other individuals are. It is the laziness that causes us to classify each other. We don't want to have to get to know everyone individually so we try to make holistic observations and apply them. Unfortunately, these observations fail in giving us an accurate depiction of who someone is because most people only adhere to partial stereotyping, if any at all. This part is a little more difficult. I don't think it is possible to completely destroy generalization in peoples minds. It's just one of the basics of how we work. I actually probably generalize even more than the average person, but I think that one of my better qualities is my ability to ignore generalizations when I actually meet people. When I meet someone my opinion of them is based almost solely on how they act at that moment. It might be a bit of a flaw, but if someone was a complete d**k to me yesterday, but was pretty cool to me today, I might be a bit cautious, but my opinion of them would probably be based almost completely on how they treated me today despite how they treated me before. (I also have a hard time hating people, and I can't hold grudges much longer than I can hold my breath...lol.) xsparklersx Krego-sama We should celebrate what we believe, and celebrate our freedom to have our own beliefs. Well said. I definitely agree with that. I thought I might point out here that the reason I said this was to point out the difference between what I believe and what you said. You were saying celebrating our different beliefs, and it came to my mind that I probably would not be celebration someone else's religious belief or political belief, or pretty much anything I didn't agree with. I was trying to point out that we should probably only celebrate our beliefs, and the rights of everyone to have their own. ( However...if you were talking more about physical differences, like skin color, that is definitely something I can agree with. I am of the opinion that pretty much everyone has many qualities can make them beautiful. I include with this differences in people's basic personalities. I am a big fan of basic personalities because they do not include religious, political, or any other kinds of beliefs, but rather revolve around things like your sense of humor. Getting to know the very base of someones personality is the best way to get around any dislikes you may have about their beliefs about things like politics...or their skin color as the case may be for some people. If you only know what someone's religious beliefs are, you really know nothing about them. You just have assumptions.) xsparklersx Though, I would have to argue that sometimes skin color is a definite part of a person's cultural background. For instance, an African American who is a slave descendant would have a greatly different cultural/historical background from a white plantation owner's granddaughter. A great part of a person's cultural background lies in the history of their family members. And since history has largely been influenced by racism, it is still relevant to consider that skin color and cultural background are still, in various cases, linked. At this point you are really only talking about racism, and it's influence on history. Skin color, however, is only how your are identifying this specific race. While there was a lot of slavery, and it did create it's own culture, you can't really look at someones skin color, and place them in that group. There are a lot of black people who are not African-American, or are African-American, but are not the descendants of slaves. There are also white African-Americans. I had a friend in high school that was African-American, but had no hint of being black whatsoever. He shared a cultural background with many others, including black people, from South Africa, but skin color really had nothing to do with it. I'm just saying that no matter how you look at it, you can't (or at the least shouldn't) classify anything, including cultural differences, by skin color. It might also be a good idea to note that it was not just African-Americans that were enslaved, and there were in fact slaves that were not black. xsparklersx True. I never said we had to note it any further than that. I think it should be noted in much the same way as you would note an awesome hairstyle someone has as they walk past you on the street. You know what I mean? Sort of like, "hey I like the way the sun shining on that person's dark brown skin makes it look like molten chocolate" or "I wish I had her olive skin tone...then I wouldn't have to get a tan to keep people from asking me if I'm sick." And yeah, there can also be the negative comments of "I prefer to gaze at tan male models than the ones that are so pale they look like ghosts." But basically skin color and physical features are just aesthetics. They should be noted because seeing is a great thing. Just because we should note it, though, doesn't mean I think people should assign other attributes besides aesthetic appeal to someone's physique. (example: thinking that because someone's skin has a dark tan look that they must speak Spanish). At this point it was really that you were using the word 'celebrate' in relation to skin color, but no other physical feature was mentioned. It was as if you were putting special emphasis on skin color, while I was pointing out that this is not something we should do. I think we are about on the same page as far as physical features go though. Damn Gaia logged me out while I was typing this up...lol
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Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:20 pm
Skin color IS a physical feature. It is just as much a physical feature as a big/small nose or ears or green/blue/brown/black eyes. It is more prominent than any other feature on the human body. Why you see someone the first thing you can possibly register is their skin color because that is the most noticeable part of them.
Just as people are attracted to blue/brown/green eyes or a small/big nose or even large/small breasts people WILL have a preference in the skin tone of people they are attracted to and will dislike other looks.
Because of this we should treat it as just another feature of our bodies.
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Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:25 pm
The2Crimson3King Skin color IS a physical feature. It is just as much a physical feature as a big/small nose or ears or green/blue/brown/black eyes. It is more prominent than any other feature on the human body. Why you see someone the first thing you can possibly register is their skin color because that is the most noticeable part of them. Just as people are attracted to blue/brown/green eyes or a small/big nose or even large/small breasts people WILL have a preference in the skin tone of people they are attracted to and will dislike other looks. Because of this we should treat it as just another feature of our bodies. Well said. Exactly what I am tryin ta say.
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Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:17 pm
Thanks for agreeing with me! I wasnt sure that what I said had made any sence.
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:13 pm
i believe we all naturally have some racist thoughts,
so as long as people express themselves,
no racism will not end
as unfortunate as this is
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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:16 am
Trugen i believe we all naturally have some racist thoughts, so as long as people express themselves, no racism will not end as unfortunate as this is Racist thoughts are as natural as thinking that all pointy nosed people are retarded. We all have racist thoughts, but I think it is probably because of the world we grew up in. Not because it's natural.
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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:21 pm
Krego-sama Racism seems to be an ongoing problem in our world today. I don't think people really understand what the problem is though. I personally think that the main reason racism is as big of a problem as it is today is because everyone wants to classify people by race. The first thing the government wants to tell you when you are in school is...you are white or you are hispanic. Mark that circle there on that sheet. Then they are always doing polls on what the minorities think. This immediately tells young people that people are different based on race. That different races have different opinions. In reality every single person has their own opinion, but for some reason people like to categorize by race. I think the only way we will every end racism...is to completely stop classifying people by race. I don't think this will ever happen. yea i see where u goin with that but sum people take it 2 far, but they ask u to mark the race circle cuz they gotta know how skoo works in ur country so they can help u with that here or anywhere else dey ask that question...and im black so were one of the races that got big problems with being judged by race but otha than that i love bein black cuz its tight
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