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Have you taken any ethics classes?
  No - but I plan on doing so!
  No - but I'm going to have to, and I don't look forward to it!
  No - and I doubt that I will.
  Yes - and I enjoyed it!
  Yes - and it was sucky!
  Yes - and I don't really have an opinion about it.
  Well, I've taken some classes that weren't about ethics, but involved ethics.
  I have researched ethics on my own, but haven't taken any formal classes.
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WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:49 am


Erasmas
rolleyes OK. Make an ED thread and tell everybody to literally ignore all the whacked-out, hormonal, overly-emotional women in the Abortion Debate Thread who can't help being assholes when they're not getting their way.
Look, we can't insult people in here who can't respond in here. We will get the entire Guild reported if that happens. Please attempt to refrain from such comments in the future.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:17 pm


WatersMoon110
Erasmas
rolleyes OK. Make an ED thread and tell everybody to literally ignore all the whacked-out, hormonal, overly-emotional women in the Abortion Debate Thread who can't help being assholes when they're not getting their way.
Look, we can't insult people in here who can't respond in here. We will get the entire Guild reported if that happens. Please attempt to refrain from such comments in the future.

Actually, since it's not directed towards a specific person, it's not really "reportable" it's considered to be an "opinion."

That said, no relevance what-so-ever, since this is not a b***h-fest thread (that I'm aware of) so to reiterate Waters, "Please attempt to refrain from such comments in the future."

Decrepit Faith
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WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:55 am


Beware the Jabberwock
WatersMoon110
Erasmas
rolleyes OK. Make an ED thread and tell everybody to literally ignore all the whacked-out, hormonal, overly-emotional women in the Abortion Debate Thread who can't help being assholes when they're not getting their way.
Look, we can't insult people in here who can't respond in here. We will get the entire Guild reported if that happens. Please attempt to refrain from such comments in the future.

Actually, since it's not directed towards a specific person, it's not really "reportable" it's considered to be an "opinion."

That said, no relevance what-so-ever, since this is not a b***h-fest thread (that I'm aware of) so to reiterate Waters, "Please attempt to refrain from such comments in the future."
Really, well that's good! I spend far too much time worrying about this Guild getting reported (again) because of something said in this SubForum.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:53 pm


Conren
Well, going down the list:

Deontology:
Well, some would say that a mother has a duty to protect her unborn offspring the same as as she would a born one. Having an abortion kind of breaks that duty. I'm not sure about abortionists. An abortionist does have the duty to do his job, however, he is also a doctor and does have the duty to "do no harm" as said by the Hippocratic oath.


Ya know, I was thinking earlier about how people aren't allowed to completely deny responsibility for caring for a child after birth. Men are required to offer child support whether they want the child or not. I also believe that married couples are often denied the option of putting their child up for adoption since it's assumed that they're capable of caring for the child. Further if they neglect the child they will receive legal action for neglect. As this applies to the debate, how is it legally consistant to give this protection to children, regardless of the desires of the parents, after birth, but not before? Additionally, if a woman claims her right to an abortion based on the right to refuse use of her body to the child, she is also refusing the life-giving food and water that the fetus needs. So she may be legally protected for refusing use, but could still in a sense be illegally denying life support to her own offspring.

elffromspace


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:42 pm


elffromspace
Ya know, I was thinking earlier about how people aren't allowed to completely deny responsibility for caring for a child after birth. Men are required to offer child support whether they want the child or not. I also believe that married couples are often denied the option of putting their child up for adoption since it's assumed that they're capable of caring for the child. Further if they neglect the child they will receive legal action for neglect. As this applies to the debate, how is it legally consistant to give this protection to children, regardless of the desires of the parents, after birth, but not before? Additionally, if a woman claims her right to an abortion based on the right to refuse use of her body to the child, she is also refusing the life-giving food and water that the fetus needs. So she may be legally protected for refusing use, but could still in a sense be illegally denying life support to her own offspring.
Because you can't be forced to let your children use your body parts, born or not. You can't be forced to donate organs, or even blood, to your own children, if you don't want to.

However, legally, I believe the issue is both a lack of rights for unborn humans, the "right to privacy" thing (it's vague, I don't understand the whole concept, let alone what it seems to be applied to sometimes), and the inability to prove that an unborn human is one's legal offspring and responsibility towards it. It takes a birth certificate or DNA testing to force a biological father to pay child support, after all.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:38 pm


Yes, but at the same time, a parent can't refuse their child entry into their home if they don't want them there, nor access to food if they don't want to. This would be neglect.

A medical emergency is an unforseen event. However, feeding and sheltering are always inherently required means of survival, and are thus legally required. Since being born is an inherently required means of survival... I would argue that the jurisdiction would fall under neglect, on the means that it is closer to sheltering and feeding.

divineseraph


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:40 am


divineseraph
Yes, but at the same time, a parent can't refuse their child entry into their home if they don't want them there, nor access to food if they don't want to. This would be neglect.

A medical emergency is an unforseen event. However, feeding and sheltering are always inherently required means of survival, and are thus legally required. Since being born is an inherently required means of survival... I would argue that the jurisdiction would fall under neglect, on the means that it is closer to sheltering and feeding.
Interesting point. I differ, in that carrying an unborn human involves the use of one's body (and so, I feel, should need consent).

I guess the main difference is that a parent can give their born child up for adoption, and allow someone else to care for them. When this can be done with an unborn child, I would be far more inclined to agree that elective abortion is more a matter of neglect.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:01 am


WatersMoon110
divineseraph
Yes, but at the same time, a parent can't refuse their child entry into their home if they don't want them there, nor access to food if they don't want to. This would be neglect.

A medical emergency is an unforseen event. However, feeding and sheltering are always inherently required means of survival, and are thus legally required. Since being born is an inherently required means of survival... I would argue that the jurisdiction would fall under neglect, on the means that it is closer to sheltering and feeding.
Interesting point. I differ, in that carrying an unborn human involves the use of one's body (and so, I feel, should need consent).

I guess the main difference is that a parent can give their born child up for adoption, and allow someone else to care for them. When this can be done with an unborn child, I would be far more inclined to agree that elective abortion is more a matter of neglect.

That being said though, if a woman had to wait for whatever reason, to give her child up for adoption, she can't leave it outside to die and use the excuse "Well I was going to give it up for adoption, but I couldn't right away and I didn't want to wait, it was too much hassle."

Decrepit Faith
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WatersMoon110
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:28 am


Beware the Jabberwock
WatersMoon110
divineseraph
Yes, but at the same time, a parent can't refuse their child entry into their home if they don't want them there, nor access to food if they don't want to. This would be neglect.

A medical emergency is an unforseen event. However, feeding and sheltering are always inherently required means of survival, and are thus legally required. Since being born is an inherently required means of survival... I would argue that the jurisdiction would fall under neglect, on the means that it is closer to sheltering and feeding.
Interesting point. I differ, in that carrying an unborn human involves the use of one's body (and so, I feel, should need consent).

I guess the main difference is that a parent can give their born child up for adoption, and allow someone else to care for them. When this can be done with an unborn child, I would be far more inclined to agree that elective abortion is more a matter of neglect.

That being said though, if a woman had to wait for whatever reason, to give her child up for adoption, she can't leave it outside to die and use the excuse "Well I was going to give it up for adoption, but I couldn't right away and I didn't want to wait, it was too much hassle."
That's why there are baby drop off points, at hospitals, fire stations, and maybe some other places.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:03 pm


WatersMoon110
Beware the Jabberwock
WatersMoon110
divineseraph
Yes, but at the same time, a parent can't refuse their child entry into their home if they don't want them there, nor access to food if they don't want to. This would be neglect.

A medical emergency is an unforseen event. However, feeding and sheltering are always inherently required means of survival, and are thus legally required. Since being born is an inherently required means of survival... I would argue that the jurisdiction would fall under neglect, on the means that it is closer to sheltering and feeding.
Interesting point. I differ, in that carrying an unborn human involves the use of one's body (and so, I feel, should need consent).

I guess the main difference is that a parent can give their born child up for adoption, and allow someone else to care for them. When this can be done with an unborn child, I would be far more inclined to agree that elective abortion is more a matter of neglect.

That being said though, if a woman had to wait for whatever reason, to give her child up for adoption, she can't leave it outside to die and use the excuse "Well I was going to give it up for adoption, but I couldn't right away and I didn't want to wait, it was too much hassle."
That's why there are baby drop off points, at hospitals, fire stations, and maybe some other places.

That's, firstly assuming that it's a baby, and secondly would mean that they were able to get rid of the child right away. The point I was making was that they cannot simply be like "Sucks to be you" if for whatever reason they can't get rid of the child.

Not that it matters, because it's kind of a horrible analogy anyway, but that was the point I was trying to make. XD

Decrepit Faith
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divineseraph

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:44 pm


Beware the Jabberwock
WatersMoon110
Beware the Jabberwock
WatersMoon110
divineseraph
Yes, but at the same time, a parent can't refuse their child entry into their home if they don't want them there, nor access to food if they don't want to. This would be neglect.

A medical emergency is an unforseen event. However, feeding and sheltering are always inherently required means of survival, and are thus legally required. Since being born is an inherently required means of survival... I would argue that the jurisdiction would fall under neglect, on the means that it is closer to sheltering and feeding.
Interesting point. I differ, in that carrying an unborn human involves the use of one's body (and so, I feel, should need consent).

I guess the main difference is that a parent can give their born child up for adoption, and allow someone else to care for them. When this can be done with an unborn child, I would be far more inclined to agree that elective abortion is more a matter of neglect.

That being said though, if a woman had to wait for whatever reason, to give her child up for adoption, she can't leave it outside to die and use the excuse "Well I was going to give it up for adoption, but I couldn't right away and I didn't want to wait, it was too much hassle."
That's why there are baby drop off points, at hospitals, fire stations, and maybe some other places.

That's, firstly assuming that it's a baby, and secondly would mean that they were able to get rid of the child right away. The point I was making was that they cannot simply be like "Sucks to be you" if for whatever reason they can't get rid of the child.

Not that it matters, because it's kind of a horrible analogy anyway, but that was the point I was trying to make. XD


But if feti are to be considered on the same level as born children, then neglect could be factored in. So an abortion would be, legally, the very same thing, aside from the detail that the woman is refusing access to her uterus, and not her home. But considering again that neglect is generally where there is an unavoidable neccesity to life, I believe jurisdiction should fall under neglect.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:31 am


divineseraph
But if feti are to be considered on the same level as born children, then neglect could be factored in. So an abortion would be, legally, the very same thing, aside from the detail that the woman is refusing access to her uterus, and not her home. But considering again that neglect is generally where there is an unavoidable neccesity to life, I believe jurisdiction should fall under neglect.
That's true, but I feel that little detail of the unborn human needing the woman's uterus and nutrients makes this more than just a simple case of neglect. I feel that just like no parent can be forced to donate organs or blood to their born child, they should not be able to be forced to donate to their unborn child either.

Because this involves physical needs from the mother, and not just social needs, I feel that this falls more under the example of donating organs than just needed to feed and shelter one's child. Of course, neither example is really very close. Pregnancy is such a special case, after all.

WatersMoon110
Crew


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:33 am


Beware the Jabberwock
WatersMoon110
That's why there are baby drop off points, at hospitals, fire stations, and maybe some other places.

That's, firstly assuming that it's a baby, and secondly would mean that they were able to get rid of the child right away. The point I was making was that they cannot simply be like "Sucks to be you" if for whatever reason they can't get rid of the child.

Not that it matters, because it's kind of a horrible analogy anyway, but that was the point I was trying to make. XD
I wonder if one can drop off older children at baby drop off points?

Are there cases where a parent wants to give a child up for adoption, but has to wait? For the sake of the child, there really shouldn't be.

Okay, I do see your point. However, I feel there is a pretty large difference between having to care for your born child until you can find another home for them and being forced to allow an unborn human to use your body.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:49 am


WatersMoon110
Beware the Jabberwock
WatersMoon110
That's why there are baby drop off points, at hospitals, fire stations, and maybe some other places.

That's, firstly assuming that it's a baby, and secondly would mean that they were able to get rid of the child right away. The point I was making was that they cannot simply be like "Sucks to be you" if for whatever reason they can't get rid of the child.

Not that it matters, because it's kind of a horrible analogy anyway, but that was the point I was trying to make. XD
I wonder if one can drop off older children at baby drop off points?

Are there cases where a parent wants to give a child up for adoption, but has to wait? For the sake of the child, there really shouldn't be.

Okay, I do see your point. However, I feel there is a pretty large difference between having to care for your born child until you can find another home for them and being forced to allow an unborn human to use your body.

I really have no idea if there are cases, I think I was just trying to help you understand what is meant by what is said, rather than what exactly is said. Basically it's that a parent couldn't do that, if there were no options available to them at that time.

Also I've seen the analogy of breast feeding used. If a woman cannot afford to buy formula, to feed her child, should she have a legal obligation to breast feed them, rather than let them starve? Once again, there may be other options, but assuming she doesn't have any for whatever reason.

Decrepit Faith
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Pro-Life/Pro-Choice Discussion

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