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 Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:17 pm
lordstar somewere there is a part about not being alive untill God breaths life into said person some people use those words to diffine life begining after their first breath The problem with this for me is that I only see God as having breathed the life into Adam and Eve. The rest of us begin to breathe on our own after we are born. Some children are born unable to breathe and must be hooked up to respirators until they can breathe on their own; therefore, under this "breath of life" view, a child could legally still be killed after it has left the womb.
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:57 pm
IcarusDream lordstar somewere there is a part about not being alive untill God breaths life into said person some people use those words to diffine life begining after their first breath The problem with this for me is that I only see God as having breathed the life into Adam and Eve. The rest of us begin to breathe on our own after we are born. Some children are born unable to breathe and must be hooked up to respirators until they can breathe on their own; therefore, under this "breath of life" view, a child could legally still be killed after it has left the womb. odd isn't it
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:04 pm
sunshinehearttrob oral, a**l, and the other kind that i cant think of right now are all follow by the word "sex". which indicates that they are forms of sex. therefore making it a sin. which means, no you shouldnt do it until your marry. just pray to God to help you resist these temptations and ask Him for strength. im praying for you. AY OY and VY are all different but since you seem to have found a root why don't you try to find the derivative for each with respect to sex then the derivatives for the associated variable are the functions inverses?
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:18 pm
IcarusDream sunshinehearttrob oral, a**l, and the other kind that i cant think of right now are all follow by the word "sex". which indicates that they are forms of sex. therefore making it a sin. Since when was sex a sin?. Prostitution was legal under the Mosaic Law, and that doesn't really seem to change anywhere in the New Testament. The Old Testament didn't look kindly on prostitutes, as you were not supposed to raise your daughter to be one, but as long as those non-virgins didn't marry, there was nothing wrong with it. Quote: which means, no you shouldnt do it until your marry. According to what verse or law? Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 1 Corinthians 10:8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. Galatians 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Colossians 3:5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. Revelation 2:14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. # Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:23 pm
sunshinehearttrob Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. Self-castrating priests who have a**l sex orgies with men and women in an idolatrous ritual are pretty bad sinners...So, what does this say intrinsically about sex? Quote: 1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders πόρνοι, in Koine Greek, means harlot, not sexually immoral. Harlots may be sexually immoral, but this does not at all indicate what happens to those who are not harlots. Quote: 1 Corinthians 10:8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. πορνεύωμεν doesn't exactly mean what its translated to. It means "to act the harlot." Quote: 2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. These words of πορνείᾳ and ἀσελγείᾳ have been so wonderfully mistranslated for the constant condemnation that sex-deprived fathers push on us. Quote: Galatians 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; There it is again. πορνεία. It. does. not. mean. sexual. immorality. Quote: Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. πορνεία...there it is again!!! Quote: Colossians 3:5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. πορνεία...yet again. As for "lust," πάθος need not have a sexual connotation. And, even with it meaning "lust," lust is only "adultery of the heart," impossible to commit with someone who is unmarried. Quote: 1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality πορνεία...hmm...is this the NAB or something? Quote: Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. πόρνος...harlots...its back again, I guess. And that last sexually immoral doesn't even appear in the Greek. Quote: Revelation 2:14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. πορνεύω...harlots are fornicators, but not all fornicators are harlots... Quote: Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." πόρνος...harlots again.
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:26 pm
What does it take to be considered a harlot in that culture?
Is it possible that even though the Greek literally reads "harlot" that the principle being taught is still about sexual immorality?
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:44 pm
Seraph68 What does it take to be considered a harlot in that culture? A harlot is either a prostitute or someone generally given to sexual activity for enjoyment or money, not necessarily in a professional sense.The term is either literally a prostitute or a whoremonger, who are fornicators, for sure, but not all fornicators are prostitutes or whoremongers. Consider this: How likely is it that the NT, which is the one that removes all of the old law, all of a sudden adds MORE restrictions? I don't know of an OT verse that explicitly condemns prostitution. I have read that one is not supposed to raise ones daughter to be one, but no where have I seen it absolutely condemned. It follows from this that Israel allows prostitution under their law. The OT really doesn't condemn it, though these non virgins shall not, obviously, marry. Quote: Is it possible that even though the Greek literally reads "harlot" that the principle being taught is still about sexual immorality? I don't think it is 100% likely. It isn't impossible, but it really seems like sexually deprived priests or translators just want to force everyone to be like them until they are married.
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:40 am
IcarusDream Seraph68 What does it take to be considered a harlot in that culture? A harlot is either a prostitute or someone generally given to sexual activity for enjoyment or money, not necessarily in a professional sense.The term is either literally a prostitute or a whoremonger, who are fornicators, for sure, but not all fornicators are prostitutes or whoremongers. Alright, how many times does one have to use sexual activity for pleasure, money, or other sort of gain to be considered a harlot? Before you answer that, how many lies must be told to before one is considered a liar? How many people must one kill to be considered a murder? I do not think the text is as exclusive as you are making it to be. The point of these verses (Colossians 3:5 for example) isn’t that only those who are registered as sinners are of the sinful (earthly) nature, but that these are examples of it. My point being that just because you can nit pick the wording doesn’t change that those verses are pointing out that sexual immorality is improper for Christians. IcarusDream It is impossible, by this definition, to commit sin (of adultery) through lust if you lust after someone when neither of you are married. Again, this is one of those things where the principle is more important then the specific wording. Is there a difference if one is lusting after a woman he does not know is married and him lusting after a woman he does not know is single? If that doesn’t matter, when do his lusting eyes become sinful? After he has a girlfriend? After he has gotten engaged? Up until the minister says “I now pronounce you man and wife”? Think about this, while a man may not have a wife, the woman he sleeps with still isn’t his wife. Later on, when he marries another woman, he has already slept with a woman that was not his wife. While some may take this as retroactive, the fact remains that he has slept with someone other then his wife. But what if that man marries the woman he slept with before the marriage? In my opinion, it’s rough because it leaves a cloud of suspicion on the each other. If they started sleeping together after 8 months of dating, what about that girl he dated for a year? I would not say that they have necessarily sinned but they have put themselves in a situation that they have lost their blameless testimony (which is important for some) and may have compromised each other’s trust. And there is also the hazard of the relationship failing after the sexual part has been introduced. But there is also the question of when does God recognize marriage? When the commitment is made? When the legal documentation is complete? When the ceremony has finished? I have a friend who has even suggested that God recognizes it once they have “consummated” the marriage. I have known several couples that have pretty much been married months before the wedding took place. I have also known a few couples that have 2 anniversaries because the marriage license was filed on a different day then the wedding ceremony. In those scenarios, when did God recognize those couples as married? I don’t know, but I plan to play it safe and wait until everything else has been taken care of. There is one thing that I would like to add for those who have made mistakes and have had sexual experiences outside of marriage. While purity is a wonderful gift for your spouse, it is not the most important thing. As humans, we make mistakes and sin, but there is grace and forgiveness through Christ. Repent and sin no more (John 8:11). I believe that God will bring a spouse into your life that will forgive you for giving up your purity and will realize that there are more important things then just purity (not that purity isn’t important, but forgiveness is more important).
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:30 am
Seraph68 Alright, how many times does one have to use sexual activity for pleasure, money, or other sort of gain to be considered a harlot? The bible is ambiguous. I cannot answer it. I might as well just ask, what good is Christ's witnessing for himself? Or what is judging justly? Who are we to judge that we've judged justly? Quote: Before you answer that, how many lies must be told to before one is considered a liar? How many people must one kill to be considered a murder? Being promiscuous is not like murdering or lying, where by any community's standards you become one immediately after one such act. A promiscuous (i.e. whoremongering) person can only be found by applying a current community standard. Quote: I do not think the text is as exclusive as you are making it to be. The point of these verses (Colossians 3:5 for example) isn’t that only those who are registered as sinners are of the sinful (earthly) nature, but that these are examples of it. My point being that just because you can nit pick the wording doesn’t change that those verses are pointing out that sexual immorality is improper for Christians. Let's set the words themselves aside. Assuming "sexual immorality" is the correct translation, where is such a word defined? What is excluded/included? Quote: Again, this is one of those things where the principle is more important then the specific wording. Where is the principle to be found? Some principles are later applied that aren't exactly meant to be. Most church's homosexual doctrines for example. Quote: Is there a difference if one is lusting after a woman he does not know is married and him lusting after a woman he does not know is single? If that doesn’t matter, when do his lusting eyes become sinful? After he has a girlfriend? After he has gotten engaged? Up until the minister says “I now pronounce you man and wife”? When either he or the woman are married. It is a strict definition. If you have sex with a woman, and she is married, adultery was not committed simply because you didn't know she was married? Quote: Think about this, while a man may not have a wife, the woman he sleeps with still isn’t his wife. Later on, when he marries another woman, he has already slept with a woman that was not his wife. While some may take this as retroactive, the fact remains that he has slept with someone other then his wife. But not when that woman was his wife did he sleep with her. What's the point here? Quote: But what if that man marries the woman he slept with before the marriage? All the better to them. Quote: In my opinion, it’s rough because it leaves a cloud of suspicion on the each other. If they started sleeping together after 8 months of dating, what about that girl he dated for a year? I would not say that they have necessarily sinned but they have put themselves in a situation that they have lost their blameless testimony (which is important for some) and may have compromised each other’s trust. And there is also the hazard of the relationship failing after the sexual part has been introduced. How much experience can you really be speaking from? Are you in a relationship such as that? Such as I am? " lameless testimony" sounds like a puritan idea. Anyways, I doubt the consummation of actual love before marriage presents too much of a problem to God.
Quote: But there is also the question of when does God recognize marriage? When the commitment is made? When the legal documentation is complete? When the ceremony has finished? I have a friend who has even suggested that God recognizes it once they have “consummated” the marriage. I have known several couples that have pretty much been married months before the wedding took place. I have also known a few couples that have 2 anniversaries because the marriage license was filed on a different day then the wedding ceremony. In those scenarios, when did God recognize those couples as married? I don’t know, but I plan to play it safe and wait until everything else has been taken care of.
An excellent question, which I have posed in this thread before.
It just raises the point, how can sex be wrong for a couple who don't have anyone to marry them or any place to be married? Is their deep, heartfelt commitment strong enough to be classified as marriage? Why would God legislate in such a manner that would absolutely deprive them of any physical expression to one another (should they follow this premarital sex dogma)?
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:11 pm
etchedspirit Vendition So, i was wondering if me and my female friend (both Christians) could have have sexual... practice. Such as oral sex, and ect. But would it be considered a sin, sense we are not married. it isn't "sex" but is it a sin? HELLO!!! Oral sex IS sex, that's why it has the word SEX in it......yes, I do think it's wrong and it's disgusting. Why the heck would you even want to put your mouth anywhere near the other person's private areas anyway??? NASTY!!! ewwww.....gross. I wasn't asking for your ignorant Christian view on oral sex. and furthermore, grow the ******** up.
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:17 pm
Looks like IcarusDream is just too smart for the rest of us. His superior intellect has won me over and I suggest we all follow suit.
On second thought, is anyone convinced he's right (minus Lordstar)?
Why push on it so hard? You guys go have as much sex in whatever way you have so well justified and rest assured that your decision to do so is completely your right! You don't have to work so hard to convince others that what you want to do is okay!
In getting back to the original dilema, basically: is it okay to experiment a little and is that experimenting considered sex? In which case is it a sin?
The fact that you feel you must question it in the first place points out the struggle every believer has with his/her own "desires of the flesh". The cool thing is you're uneasy about it and that's a sign of the Spirit of God living in you, contending with those old impulses! That's the Holy Spirit at work!
Jesus says this about the Holy Spirit in John 16:8-14...
"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you."
He says the Holy Spirit will come to convict the world of sin AND lets not forget righteousness. In other words, wrong and right. He also says that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth, which He is clearly in the process of doing in your heart right now. Lastly he says the Holy Spirit will glorify Jesus. SO, 1. Does oral sex with somebody other than who you married (note the past tense there) sound like a sin or righteousness? And 2. Does it glorify Jesus?
Bottom line, you really don't need anyone's advice on this... you already know the answer!
Beings as I just quoted scripture, I'm sure we're soon going to hear what it is correctly translated as and how what I just stated above is completely wrong and how ultimately, I'm just trying to keep you from having fun. stare Sorry about that. I just so badly need to be right.
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:14 pm
I don't think I'm pushing it quite so hard as many fire and brimstone types push first. Quote: You guys go have as much sex in whatever way you have so well justified and rest assured that your decision to do so is completely your right! You don't have to work so hard to convince others that what you want to do is okay! Sometimes...we do. It's just one of those things. Homosexual Christians constantly get told what they do is abominable, with the accuser almost never being able to back themselves up. Quote: The fact that you feel you must question it in the first place points out the struggle every believer has with his/her own "desires of the flesh". The cool thing is you're uneasy about it and that's a sign of the Spirit of God living in you, contending with those old impulses! That's the Holy Spirit at work! Can you prove it? Quote: Jesus says this about the Holy Spirit in John 16:8-14... "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you." Quote: He says the Holy Spirit will come to convict the world of sin AND lets not forget righteousness. And of something else...judgment. Quote: In other words, wrong and right. Ehh, that's iffy, with the stresses that the verses make on the actual reasons behind the judgments. Quote: He also says that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth, which He is clearly in the process of doing in your heart right now. I don't know that he could not just mean that the essence of truth, truth itself, will come into us. πνευμα quite literally means a wash of air. Quote: Does oral sex with somebody other than who you married (note the past tense there) sound like a sin or righteousness? Or is it neither? There is a middle ground. One could say it is righteous, sinful, or irrelevant and therefore neither. Quote: And 2. Does it glorify Jesus? Celebrating what gifts He gave us doesn't glorify Him? Mmmmmkayy no. Quote: Beings as I just quoted scripture I find it interesting that you equate the παρακλητος/"πνευμα αληθειας" with the λογος. Quote: I'm sure we're soon going to hear what it is correctly translated Nah, they got it right enough. Quote: as and how what I just stated above is completely wrong Subjective, yes. Wrong, well, because it's subjective, not entirely. Quote: and how ultimately, I'm just trying to keep you from having fun. Yeah, pretty much. Quote: Sorry about that. I just so badly need to be right. Very Christian of you.
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:54 pm
You make an informed analysis, but as followers of Christ, we must look at everything with LOVE foremost. Logic and reason can only guide humans so far before it falls short of the spiritual growth that we are seeking. As others have said here, what's the reason for having any type of "intimate" contact? Love or lust? Love is patient, love is selfless.
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