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 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:04 pm
sachiko_sohma Bodily rights? Fact, in order to have that right you have to be alive and have a body. Fact the fetus isn't a part of the mothers actual body, just temporarily using her body. I see a flaw in that argument, the fetus has its own body right (or developing one anyways)? Where is its right or why is it his/her body that ends up being destroyed? The bodily domain issue IS about the fetus using your body. It's using your body, you don't want it using your body, you have the right to remove it.
Its body has to be destroyed because there is no way to remove it without doing so.
Its right technically does not exist. But even if it had one, its right wouldn't overrule the woman's right.
@ Erasmas :: Especially women? Boy, you've just gone and offended nearly everyone in here.
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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:57 pm
Tyshia2 Yes, we all know that a fetus is not a parasite. To be a parasite, one must be of a different species.
But when you hear about an organism that's living in your body, using your nutrients and resources, cannot survive outside your body, and can potentially cause serious health problems, do you think of a fetus? No, you think of a parasite.
Likewise, when you hear about a cute, adorable, innocent, joy-bringing baby, one doesn't usually think of this:
( ^ A fetus at around 9 weeks. The majority of abortions occur at or before nine weeks gestation.)
One thinks of this:
Neither belong in a debate. Both are emotional appeals. The former tries to paint the fetus out as a villian, the latter tries to paint the fetus out as exactly the same thing as a six month old infant. Neither are true. Neither belong in debate.
It's OK for pro-lifers to use their usual emotional appeals, but a pro-choicers emotional appeal is disgusting and means that they're uneducated morons. No, it's generally the other way around. Choicers commonly tell US not to use emotion appeals, just before they make sob stories about how cruel pregnancy can be and "What if you were pregnant/got a girl pregnant"...
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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:24 pm
When I said that, I meant that women tend to be more emotional...especially in these types of issues that directly involve them. So, you know, hold your fire...
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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:20 pm
Erasmas When I said that, I meant that women tend to be more emotional...especially in these types of issues that directly involve them. So, you know, hold your fire... Well, first of all, that's still not founded in fact. Secondly, that's not what you said. You said that some people, especially women, can't tell the difference between logic and emotions. That's not the same as saying women are more emotional. Tyshia2, the thing is, baby is a common way to refer to an unborn child. Most people talk to pregnant women about their babies, not their fetuses. When I think of a pregnant woman and the fetus inside of her, I admittedly think, "Baby." When I looked at that picture, I thought, "Baby." Even when I'm studying its development, I'll think, "Baby." Even when it's not human, because in our society, we're taught from a young age that pregnant women carry babies. Ask a five-year-old about why a pregnant woman looks like that, most will say they've got a baby. It takes special care to not use the word. It's not like parasite. Parasite is more deliberate. Most of us aren't taught to call a fetus a parasite. No one learns in science class that a fetus is a parasite. It comes specifically from people who are pro-choice. There are plenty of people who are pro-choice who call fetii babies. Some people argue that insisting upon the use of the word fetus is just an attempt to dehumanize the child, because most people who are pro-choice don't insist on using technical terms for any other stage of human development. They'll say teenagers instead of adolescents or adults in the case of later teens, or baby instead of neonate. It seems like it is trying to detract from the humanity of a fetus to insist on using fetus instead of colloquial terms, but to not insist on the same thing for born humans.
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:29 am
lymelady Erasmas When I said that, I meant that women tend to be more emotional...especially in these types of issues that directly involve them. So, you know, hold your fire... Well, first of all, that's still not founded in fact. Secondly, that's not what you said. You said that some people, especially women, can't tell the difference between logic and emotions. That's not the same as saying women are more emotional. Well, it may not be "founded", but if I think of all the women I've ever met, and all the men I've ever met. Uh, yep...women win. It's not a bad thing, per se. And you're right, it's not the same thing. I do think women base more of their...I don't know...beliefs? Conclusions? On perception. Perception meaning what they want they morals, values, inner processes, etc dictate to them. I think men tend to just put things in order, based on what's in front of them. It's linear. This might be why guys, on the whole, tend to do better at quantitative subjects like Math and Science, and women are better qualitatively.
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:42 am
Erasmas lymelady Erasmas When I said that, I meant that women tend to be more emotional...especially in these types of issues that directly involve them. So, you know, hold your fire... Well, first of all, that's still not founded in fact. Secondly, that's not what you said. You said that some people, especially women, can't tell the difference between logic and emotions. That's not the same as saying women are more emotional. Well, it may not be "founded", but if I think of all the women I've ever met, and all the men I've ever met. Uh, yep...women win. It's not a bad thing, per se. And you're right, it's not the same thing. I do think women base more of their...I don't know...beliefs? Conclusions? On perception. Perception meaning what they want they morals, values, inner processes, etc dictate to them. I think men tend to just put things in order, based on what's in front of them. It's linear. This might be why guys, on the whole, tend to do better at quantitative subjects like Math and Science, and women are better qualitatively. Would you like a shovel? I don't know if you've dug yourself a deep enough hole yet... *wink*
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:39 am
Erasmas lymelady Erasmas When I said that, I meant that women tend to be more emotional...especially in these types of issues that directly involve them. So, you know, hold your fire... Well, first of all, that's still not founded in fact. Secondly, that's not what you said. You said that some people, especially women, can't tell the difference between logic and emotions. That's not the same as saying women are more emotional. Well, it may not be "founded", but if I think of all the women I've ever met, and all the men I've ever met. Uh, yep...women win. It's not a bad thing, per se. And you're right, it's not the same thing. I do think women base more of their...I don't know...beliefs? Conclusions? On perception. Perception meaning what they want they morals, values, inner processes, etc dictate to them. I think men tend to just put things in order, based on what's in front of them. It's linear. This might be why guys, on the whole, tend to do better at quantitative subjects like Math and Science, and women are better qualitatively. If you wish to salvage what ever credit you may still have with the pro-life guild (as it seems you've lost is all untill further notice with the choicers), I suggest you stop, and leave the thread.
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:22 pm
Erasmas Well, it may not be "founded", but if I think of all the women I've ever met, and all the men I've ever met. Uh, yep...women win. It's not a bad thing, per se. And you're right, it's not the same thing. I do think women base more of their...I don't know...beliefs? Conclusions? On perception. Perception meaning what they want they morals, values, inner processes, etc dictate to them. I think men tend to just put things in order, based on what's in front of them. It's linear. This might be why guys, on the whole, tend to do better at quantitative subjects like Math and Science, and women are better qualitatively. Plenty of men base their opinions on their perceptions. Plenty of women base their opinions on other things. Generalizations don't fly.
Women do just as well in math and science as men. On the whole why you don't see an equal amount of women and men in the sciences is heavily influenced by upbringing and personal desires. Maybe the woman is a genius in physics, but she's more interested in running her own business than trying to make a living in physics.
(You know, a woman actually discovered how to split the atom. A man took credit for it.)
@ lymelady :: True, people are brought up to call fetuses babies, but the connotation in a topic such as abortion carries much more significance. You may think "baby" when you see a fetus, but when you hear "baby", do you picture a fetus or an infant?
@ divineseraph :: It goes both ways all too often. No side is less hypocritical about blatant emotional appeals than the other. It terribly annoys me when either pro-lifers or pro-choicers use or show hypocrisy in using emotional appeals.
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:03 pm
Erasmas lymelady Erasmas When I said that, I meant that women tend to be more emotional...especially in these types of issues that directly involve them. So, you know, hold your fire... Well, first of all, that's still not founded in fact. Secondly, that's not what you said. You said that some people, especially women, can't tell the difference between logic and emotions. That's not the same as saying women are more emotional. Well, it may not be "founded", but if I think of all the women I've ever met, and all the men I've ever met. Uh, yep...women win. It's not a bad thing, per se. And you're right, it's not the same thing. I do think women base more of their...I don't know...beliefs? Conclusions? On perception. Perception meaning what they want they morals, values, inner processes, etc dictate to them. I think men tend to just put things in order, based on what's in front of them. It's linear. This might be why guys, on the whole, tend to do better at quantitative subjects like Math and Science, and women are better qualitatively. What are you talking about? There are tons of woman that do as well in math and science and some might even be better at it then some men, being good at math and science isn't a gender thing. The only reason that there are more men then woman that have jobs dealing with math and science because some men seem to enjoy it more the women but plently of women can do those jobs as well if they wanted to. I'm bad at math cause I dislike it and didn't have a good teacher that could teach math well, it had nothing to do with being a woman. But just so you know I am good at some science and also enjoy some science as well.
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:20 pm
Quote: If you wish to salvage what ever credit you may still have with the pro-life guild (as it seems you've lost is all untill further notice with the choicers), I suggest you stop, and leave the thread. That...won't be possible. See, I have opinions and stuff. And I'm not going to get into some pointless debate over this. Quote: Plenty of men base their opinions on their perceptions. Plenty of women base their opinions on other things. Generalizations don't fly. Women do just as well in math and science as men. On the whole why you don't see an equal amount of women and men in the sciences is heavily influenced by upbringing and personal desires. Maybe the woman is a genius in physics, but she's more interested in running her own business than trying to make a living in physics. (You know, a woman actually discovered how to split the atom. A man took credit for it.) Not saying there are no exceptions. Of course there are. Hell, my favorite math teacher was a woman. I'm just saying, that's the overarching trend. Quote: What are you talking about? There are tons of woman that do as well in math and science and some might even be better at it then some men, being good at math and science isn't a gender thing. The only reason that there are more men then woman that have jobs dealing with math and science because some men seem to enjoy it more the women but plently of women can do those jobs as well if they wanted to. I'm bad at math cause I dislike it and didn't have a good teacher that could teach math well, it had nothing to do with being a woman. But just so you know I am good at some science and also enjoy some science as well. Well, that's good for you (no attitude meant by that). But like I said, I'm basing my comment on trends. Of course there are exceptions.
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:39 pm
I know I don't mod this subforum, but I hope the mods here won't mind me suggesting we start a new thread on this subject and end it in this thread. I'm sorry I perpetuated it and distracted from the main topic. In fact, if no one has any objections, I'll set one up myself.
When I hear baby, I picture different things. It depends on what I've been doing that day, what I've been discussing. If I've been with my pregnant sister all day, it makes me think of a fetus. If I've been babysitting or talking about my nephew, I think of a very young toddler. It changes. That's personal, but I think my point is, when I use the word baby, it's not a ploy to make people think of a fetus as a peaceful little bundle of joy, it's just using the English language. When millions of people refer to (at least wanted) fetuses as babies in normal conversation, pro-life and pro-choice alike, and think to themselves when they're pregnant things like, "The baby's kicking," or even "This baby is making me so sick," I don't think it's a far stretch to say that using the common word for a fetus isn't an emotional plea.
If it was specific to the pro-life community, I might feel differently. I'd certainly feel differently if everyone was expected to use technical terms for every single human stage involved in a debate, but the only ones that are insisted upon are before birth. I have even been told off for using embryo instead of blastocyst. Which sucks for that person, because not only was embryo correct, but the stage of development was actually past gastrulation, there was no blastocyst to speak of, but still, I don't really feel like using the technical terms only for humans before birth.
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:00 am
I'm not going to lock this thread since Lyme got it back on track (thanks alot hun) I'll just let it be.
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:58 pm
Tyshia2 You may think "baby" when you see a fetus, but when you hear "baby", do you picture a fetus or an infant? Actually, I think of both. Mostly because of the amount of time I have spent discussing, debating, and just thinking about the issue of abortion. I don't know. It isn't as though "baby" couldn't be applied to unborn humans. People don't ask pregnant women about their "fetus" after all. It's common usage. I mean, I don't like it when people use the term "baby" to refer to unborn humans just for emotional effect, while debating this issue. But if someone just feels most comfortable with that term, it doesn't really bother me much. It is usually as much about emotions when someone insists upon using the term "fetus" as when someone insists upon using the term "baby" in my opinion (not just uses the term casually, but when someone goes out of their way to try to make other people use it).
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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:10 pm
I havnt seen a compromise yet, so I'm going ot make one. You can say fetus if you want, but please dont try to call out on an emotional ploy if we decide to say baby. Fetus and baby are sanonymous to us. At the same time, if you are goign to use fetus as a "proper" medical definition, then please do so with all stages of life.
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