Artificial intelligence

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divineseraph

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divineseraph

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Seraph68

Can we make something that is spiritual? It is very possible that we could make something that simulates having a soul, but that does not mean that it has a soul. Is the soul a set of actions or the spiritual part of person that is distinct from the physical?

But what if the AI could “earn/develop” a soul? If this was possible for an AI to earn a soul, then it is God who would do that then (in my personal opinion, I doubt this is a possibility). I also believe that it is impossible to develop a soul, as the AI is a physical object (a computer programmed to act human) that would develop a spiritual aspect (not spiritual awareness, like knowledge of God) out of nothing.

About the Organic to Machine issue, how “human” must one remain to keep their soul? Like it was said before, our bodies are just an arrangement of elements, so to some degree switching over to machine body is plausible. The next question is how is the soul “bound” to the body? I do not know, there may be some point where the soul is no longer bound to the body because the last bit of humanity (organic flesh) dies in the process of being replaced by machine. But does that mean the soul cannot transfer over to the synthetic body?

Also, let’s say that memories are not a part of the soul. While I believe that our soul will carry the memories of this life into the afterlife, having the ability to recall events from a precyberized life is not the same as retaining the soul from a precyberized life.

Exactly. Even if all my neurons were replaced with machines i'd still have a soul because I was born with one. This machine, is limited. It has what its programming allows. If it can learn through AI, it's still based on the AI programming, it doesn't per se "think" by itself.

You say it follows a program. But this is true of humans as well. We follow an evolutionary programming. Much like how a chicken knows how to break from an egg and a human knows how to breath on birth. We have a set guide of rules, programs if you will. A will to survive. hunger. Fear. it is an extremely complex, complex and twisting and self-sufficient program, yes. Trillions of times more complicated than any computer can do now. But it is a program none the less.
i am not saying a computer we have today, no. But a code as similar to ours as we can manage. A computer which is born with instinct but no knowledge, which can learn and inference just like any other human. And from these inferences, feel emotion. Just like a human. Did you know that chemicals dictate your feelings? When you are happy, chemicals in your brain are telling you to be this way?
I personally believe that the brain is like a radio reciever for the soul. It can be broken, and the signal will be hazy. If it breaks completely, the thing the signal controls will stop. And as such, a robot brain could be no different than a human brain. But what happens to the feelings of a robot when it dies with no soul? Is it truly nihilism for this creature? Can God allow a feeling ,thinking being to die simply because it is made by man and of metal rather than by earth and of flesh?

The difference being I don't have to follow my set of rules. This machine can't deny its programming, it must follow its rules. For example, if the code says that once every twelve hours it has to eat, it will eat. It can't deny the directive to eat unless its coded to be allowed to deny it. I myself can deny myself food. I will die, but I can ignore my set of rules. That is the difference.

Again, this is a strict rule. What if it said "When the contents of your stomach become low, you will get a signal. Denying this signal will relate in shutdown. Eating will sate said shutdown time until fuel runs low again." People can choose not to eat every 12 hours. And as such, this hypothetical robot could too. It is not a wise idea, as most people don't want to starve to death.

Think not of a rigid set of rules, but one like the complex set we have. "Eat when your hungry. this defines hunger-" Sleep when you are tired, this
defines tired-"

The robot is still limited by what you allow it to do. Humans are not limited by anything. They can do anything they want, and while some things may lead to death, there is nothing to stop us from doing them.  

[divineseraph]

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divineseraph

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divineseraph

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Seraph68

Can we make something that is spiritual? It is very possible that we could make something that simulates having a soul, but that does not mean that it has a soul. Is the soul a set of actions or the spiritual part of person that is distinct from the physical?

But what if the AI could “earn/develop” a soul? If this was possible for an AI to earn a soul, then it is God who would do that then (in my personal opinion, I doubt this is a possibility). I also believe that it is impossible to develop a soul, as the AI is a physical object (a computer programmed to act human) that would develop a spiritual aspect (not spiritual awareness, like knowledge of God) out of nothing.

About the Organic to Machine issue, how “human” must one remain to keep their soul? Like it was said before, our bodies are just an arrangement of elements, so to some degree switching over to machine body is plausible. The next question is how is the soul “bound” to the body? I do not know, there may be some point where the soul is no longer bound to the body because the last bit of humanity (organic flesh) dies in the process of being replaced by machine. But does that mean the soul cannot transfer over to the synthetic body?

Also, let’s say that memories are not a part of the soul. While I believe that our soul will carry the memories of this life into the afterlife, having the ability to recall events from a precyberized life is not the same as retaining the soul from a precyberized life.

Exactly. Even if all my neurons were replaced with machines i'd still have a soul because I was born with one. This machine, is limited. It has what its programming allows. If it can learn through AI, it's still based on the AI programming, it doesn't per se "think" by itself.

You say it follows a program. But this is true of humans as well. We follow an evolutionary programming. Much like how a chicken knows how to break from an egg and a human knows how to breath on birth. We have a set guide of rules, programs if you will. A will to survive. hunger. Fear. it is an extremely complex, complex and twisting and self-sufficient program, yes. Trillions of times more complicated than any computer can do now. But it is a program none the less.
i am not saying a computer we have today, no. But a code as similar to ours as we can manage. A computer which is born with instinct but no knowledge, which can learn and inference just like any other human. And from these inferences, feel emotion. Just like a human. Did you know that chemicals dictate your feelings? When you are happy, chemicals in your brain are telling you to be this way?
I personally believe that the brain is like a radio reciever for the soul. It can be broken, and the signal will be hazy. If it breaks completely, the thing the signal controls will stop. And as such, a robot brain could be no different than a human brain. But what happens to the feelings of a robot when it dies with no soul? Is it truly nihilism for this creature? Can God allow a feeling ,thinking being to die simply because it is made by man and of metal rather than by earth and of flesh?

The difference being I don't have to follow my set of rules. This machine can't deny its programming, it must follow its rules. For example, if the code says that once every twelve hours it has to eat, it will eat. It can't deny the directive to eat unless its coded to be allowed to deny it. I myself can deny myself food. I will die, but I can ignore my set of rules. That is the difference.

Again, this is a strict rule. What if it said "When the contents of your stomach become low, you will get a signal. Denying this signal will relate in shutdown. Eating will sate said shutdown time until fuel runs low again." People can choose not to eat every 12 hours. And as such, this hypothetical robot could too. It is not a wise idea, as most people don't want to starve to death.

Think not of a rigid set of rules, but one like the complex set we have. "Eat when your hungry. this defines hunger-" Sleep when you are tired, this
defines tired-"

The robot is still limited by what you allow it to do. Humans are not limited by anything. They can do anything they want, and while some things may lead to death, there is nothing to stop us from doing them.

We do have rules. We simply cannot comprehend our limitations because they are just that- incomperehencable. Here is an example- Think of a new color. A never-before seen color that cannot be a mixture of any other color, nor a branch off of any existing color.

We are not programed to be able to invent new colors. We simply cannot. It is not possible. the same thing can be done with sounds. Think of a sound which has never been heard before, which no bird or creature or action in nature makes. nor a variation of any noise you have heard. Again, a limit in our programming.  

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divineseraph

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divineseraph

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divineseraph

You say it follows a program. But this is true of humans as well. We follow an evolutionary programming. Much like how a chicken knows how to break from an egg and a human knows how to breath on birth. We have a set guide of rules, programs if you will. A will to survive. hunger. Fear. it is an extremely complex, complex and twisting and self-sufficient program, yes. Trillions of times more complicated than any computer can do now. But it is a program none the less.
i am not saying a computer we have today, no. But a code as similar to ours as we can manage. A computer which is born with instinct but no knowledge, which can learn and inference just like any other human. And from these inferences, feel emotion. Just like a human. Did you know that chemicals dictate your feelings? When you are happy, chemicals in your brain are telling you to be this way?
I personally believe that the brain is like a radio reciever for the soul. It can be broken, and the signal will be hazy. If it breaks completely, the thing the signal controls will stop. And as such, a robot brain could be no different than a human brain. But what happens to the feelings of a robot when it dies with no soul? Is it truly nihilism for this creature? Can God allow a feeling ,thinking being to die simply because it is made by man and of metal rather than by earth and of flesh?

The difference being I don't have to follow my set of rules. This machine can't deny its programming, it must follow its rules. For example, if the code says that once every twelve hours it has to eat, it will eat. It can't deny the directive to eat unless its coded to be allowed to deny it. I myself can deny myself food. I will die, but I can ignore my set of rules. That is the difference.

Again, this is a strict rule. What if it said "When the contents of your stomach become low, you will get a signal. Denying this signal will relate in shutdown. Eating will sate said shutdown time until fuel runs low again." People can choose not to eat every 12 hours. And as such, this hypothetical robot could too. It is not a wise idea, as most people don't want to starve to death.

Think not of a rigid set of rules, but one like the complex set we have. "Eat when your hungry. this defines hunger-" Sleep when you are tired, this
defines tired-"

The robot is still limited by what you allow it to do. Humans are not limited by anything. They can do anything they want, and while some things may lead to death, there is nothing to stop us from doing them.

We do have rules. We simply cannot comprehend our limitations because they are just that- incomperehencable. Here is an example- Think of a new color. A never-before seen color that cannot be a mixture of any other color, nor a branch off of any existing color.

We are not programed to be able to invent new colors. We simply cannot. It is not possible. the same thing can be done with sounds. Think of a sound which has never been heard before, which no bird or creature or action in nature makes. nor a variation of any noise you have heard. Again, a limit in our programming.

That is not a "limit." We cannot be expected to reciprocate that which we cannot know. When we imagine a space craft in our mind, it is simply a compilation of all that which we have known. However, in the case of our AI, it cannot know anything that it hasn't been given. We can learn through our own power, an AI must learn through its programming and its programming is not its own power. That programming must be given to it. However, this all returns to the one fact: We have a soul, an AI construct does not. We will never be able to create souls because they are not ours to create.  

[divineseraph]

It must learn through what it is given? We are given a blue sky and green grass. We cannot learn more colors than what have been given to us. The mind IS a program, made from flesh and blood rather than metal, but a program none the less. And this is not to say that it is simple. Our closest computers are millions of times inerior to our own minds, and even that many times inferior to an insect's mind. But who is to say that a time will not come when that gap is nothing?

And science IS working on a learning program, one which obtains information and uses it to inference. A robot which feels it's environment and learns it for next time.  

[Seraph68]

But, just because it can learn doesn't mean that it has a soul. A soul is not the ability to learn or the ability to feel emotion, and even if it were, that does not mean that something that can emulate those abilities actually has a soul.

You described the human brain as a “radio receptor” for the soul, but that does not necessarily mean that a computer brain, made to function identically to a human’s, will also be a radio receptor for a soul.

I believe that unless God give it a soul, which I highly doubt, there is no other way for an AI to gain a soul. It is nihilistic, but it is something made by man and not created by God. In the end, all that we have made on this earth will pass away and only what God has created will remain.  

[divineseraph]

So...what if you were a robot or machine, and were told that because you are what you are, and you were created by man, you could never be more than metal? That when you shut down, you were gone forever? Again, this is assuming that this is a time in which technology advances enough to recreate human intelligence and the human mind perfectly. At the functioning level, they would be no different from you or I. They would be able to learn, to think and act of their own accord. The only difference is that we made them and that they are made of metal.

I would think that God would have a place for them. I would hope so. Such a benevolent God could never let a being perish for eternity. Could God not see their creation as an abomination or a neutral nonexistence than of a birth, like that of a human or, more closely related, a test-tube baby?  

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divineseraph

So...what if you were a robot or machine, and were told that because you are what you are, and you were created by man, you could never be more than metal? That when you shut down, you were gone forever? Again, this is assuming that this is a time in which technology advances enough to recreate human intelligence and the human mind perfectly. At the functioning level, they would be no different from you or I. They would be able to learn, to think and act of their own accord. The only difference is that we made them and that they are made of metal.

I would think that God would have a place for them. I would hope so. Such a benevolent God could never let a being perish for eternity. Could God not see their creation as an abomination or a neutral nonexistence than of a birth, like that of a human or, more closely related, a test-tube baby?

But they still would lack a soul. It would be just "metal" no matter how smart it becomes. Just because I emulate God doesn't mean I am god; just because a robot emulates a human, doesn't mean it is one. It cannot magically grab a soul, it is still soulless.  

[divineseraph]

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divineseraph

So...what if you were a robot or machine, and were told that because you are what you are, and you were created by man, you could never be more than metal? That when you shut down, you were gone forever? Again, this is assuming that this is a time in which technology advances enough to recreate human intelligence and the human mind perfectly. At the functioning level, they would be no different from you or I. They would be able to learn, to think and act of their own accord. The only difference is that we made them and that they are made of metal.

I would think that God would have a place for them. I would hope so. Such a benevolent God could never let a being perish for eternity. Could God not see their creation as an abomination or a neutral nonexistence than of a birth, like that of a human or, more closely related, a test-tube baby?

But they still would lack a soul. It would be just "metal" no matter how smart it becomes. Just because I emulate God doesn't mean I am god; just because a robot emulates a human, doesn't mean it is one. It cannot magically grab a soul, it is still soulless.

Could the same thing be said about humans? That they are just flesh and blood, born of other humans? and relating to the question about the retarded- How much of our mid is actually our soul in the first place? How much of us is a flesh machine?  

[Seraph68]

divineseraph

Could the same thing be said about humans? That they are just flesh and blood, born of other humans?

True, BUT Humans were specifically created by God (Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7), and AI systems that you are describing are is either just Science Fiction or, if we eventually make a system that complex, still just a creation of man. I am not saying that it is impossible for there to be a system that would emulate humanity so closely, but that is all it would be, just an emulation, a well programmed imitation.

While we could be considered humans a "biological machine," we were created by a being that has the ability to give us an immaterial component (a soul). If we made an AI, we could not give it an immaterial component. While some may consider it's data "immaterial," the data is stored physically and may be destroyed.

And that brings up many (rhetorical) questions, assuming AI's have a soul, If the robot is destroyed but it's data/memory is backed up and restored to a new machine, does it retain it's original soul? What about the reverse, if the robot is loaded with a new AI, does it retain it's soul or gain a different one? What if an AI is copied on to multiple units at once? What if Multiple AI's are installed on one unit? etc... (I am not asking for answers, but you can see how complicated and problematic the concept of a machine having a soul gets.)  

[divineseraph]

Exactly. Which is part of my hypothetical in the beginning. If your breain was transfered slowly to a mechanical one, what would you be? What if that data was transposed?  

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divineseraph

Exactly. Which is part of my hypothetical in the beginning. If your breain was transfered slowly to a mechanical one, what would you be? What if that data was transposed?

Guess what? it doesn't matter. My soul is not Dependant on my physical body, it exists with or without me existing physically. So what if my brain became completely electronic? My soul is not changed by that, my soul still exists in the same way it always has.